Help me defeat Darklance Spam

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

I am NOT looking for a tier 1 list here, nor am I wanting to totally change my already built and mostly painted army. With that being said, I want suggestions and changes that don't totally demand me to purchase, build, and paint a new army.

 

My best friend, and constant opponent in the 41st millenia just happens to play Dark Eldar. Darklance Spam to be a little more precise. I have tried several tactics, but I just cannot break the insane amount of lance shots he has coupled with all of the Splinter Cannons/Rifles. His army generates a lot of shots, and even though I have tailor my tactics to combat his army I cannot seem to get a win out of it!! I am not one who cards about winning, I just want to get a good game in, but at this point I am ready to put some of the fluff aside and kick some ass!!

 

His usual list is two raiders with the invulnerable save shields, Splinter racks and ten warriors each, a Ravager, two Jetfighters with dark lances and two of each silly bombs (four total), a chibi-raider, five to ten mandrakes, and a rotating HQ (usually a Homunculus). This is at 1500. I am running two ten man grey hunter packs with 2 melta and a standard in rhinos, TWLord with runic armor, claw and shield and saga of the bear, two TWC both with storm shields one has a hammer, two six man long fang packs with four ML and a las cannon each, and a five man WGTDA pack that includes a storm shield, two combi weapons with accompanying claws, a chain fist and CML.

 

Both of these lists are just off the top of my head standardish type lists we each run. Am I just a terrible general, or am I doing it wrong??

 

Most of my tactics involve setting up a gun line (with long range heavies) and making him come to me as most of my big guns have a longer range than his lances. The TW posse is for distraction/additional pressure. The Grey Hunters almost never leave the rhinos, as it provides them with an additional layer of protection, they claim objectives if needed, or mop up any icky xenos that may have spilled from a destroyed raider (if or when that happens...).

 

Help me out here brothers, I am sick of going home with my tail between my legs!!

 

End of Line

[hendrik]

well i'm not a super tactician like others here but the way i see it you're splitting up your force against a highly mobile enemy. they have no problem at all to destroy your TWC charging forward and then reposition easely to take care of the rest of your army.

including both terminators and TWC is a bit expensive at 1500 points imo.

 

how about ditching the meltas for some plasma love? or a defensive line supported by long fangs?

[the jeske]

you should not be using SW termis unless its to get a cyclon for LF . if you do use TWC you should use more or you again you shouldnt be useing them at all . now a lord is not a bad HQ but a RP has A more utility[in general] and is a lot cheaper then a TWC lord.

I dont realy understand what the single las are suppose to do . If you want to use them against teq or av13+ then you need more then 1 per squad , if not then you spam RL .

 

all in all too much ineffective bling [bad termis , not spamed TWC list is not even build around them] and not enough stuff that actualy stops your opponent army from working [RP , third troop choice or speeders ] .

 

 

by the way as DE goes , mandraks no true born , no warriors , that is not realy a DE mecha list.

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

well i'm not a super tactician like others here but the way i see it you're splitting up your force against a highly mobile enemy. they have no problem at all to destroy your TWC charging forward and then reposition easely to take care of the rest of your army.

including both terminators and TWC is a bit expensive at 1500 points imo.

 

how about ditching the meltas for some plasma love? or a defensive line supported by long fangs?

 

I play WolfWing as my primary SW force, but only at 2k and above. So including a pack of WGTDA seems only natural. But yes, they are a point sink that often times does nothing but die quickly and painfully. I would rather remove then than the TWC. I could replace the Melta with Plasma no problem.

I don't usually 'charge' the TWC up the middle, I try to keep them behind cover etc as I get into range.

 

you should not be using SW termis unless its to get a cyclon for LF . if you do use TWC you should use more or you again you shouldnt be useing them at all . now a lord is not a bad HQ but a RP has A more utility[in general] and is a lot cheaper then a TWC lord.

I dont realy understand what the single las are suppose to do . If you want to use them against teq or av13+ then you need more then 1 per squad , if not then you spam RL .

 

all in all too much ineffective bling [bad termis , not spamed TWC list is not even build around them] and not enough stuff that actualy stops your opponent army from working [RP , third troop choice or speeders ] .

 

 

by the way as DE goes , mandraks no true born , no warriors , that is not realy a DE mecha list.

 

Well I feel like maybe your response is a little aggressive jeske. I am not a highly competitive player, I guess I didn't mention that. Nor is my friend, so when I say DL spam I mean lots of DL's. I am not sure as to what a true list is comprised of, it matters not to me.

I usually put the CML WGTDA with the LF's, yes.

What is 'spammed TWC' then, can you elaborate??

Since the LF pack leader has the split fire ability, I can fire the Las at a vehicle and the rest of the pack at another target if needed. But I think that running five Las Cannons is way too spendy. So yes, Missile Launchers are the best option.

A RP is a good idea, I sometimes run a TDARP in the place of the CMLTDA that moves to a LF pack.

If my Termis are 'bad', what do you think would make them good??

 

I want this list to still have an all comers feel to it, I suppose I just need to add more anti-vehicle fire to the list.

 

Thanks for the responses so far brothers!!

 

End of Line

[Hiro_Protagonist]

I'll preface this by saying that I don't play Space Wolves, but I've got both Codexes and have faced Dark Eldar, so I figure this idea could work.

 

From what's been listed the DE is only running one vehicle with AR11, so the Meltas and Missles could probably go. His splinter rifles kill TWC, so they can go as well. I say just go with "more" on the field.

 

Something like this...

 

Rune Priest w/ Living Lightning, Chooser - 110

Rune Priest w/ Murderous Hurricane, Bike - 135

 

10 Greyhunters w/ 2 Plasma guns, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen, Rhino w/ either HK or extra Storm Bolter - 230

10 Greyhunters w/ 2 Plasma guns, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen, Rhino w/ either HK or extra Storm Bolter - 230

10 Greyhunters w/ 2 Plasma guns, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen, Rhino w/ either HK or extra Storm Bolter - 230

10 Greyhunters w/ 2 Plasma guns, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen, Rhino w/ either HK or extra Storm Bolter - 230

 

3 Swiftclaw Bikers w/ Attack Bike - 105

 

6 Longfangs w/5 Heavy Bolters - 115

6 Longfangs w/5 Heavy Bolters - 115

 

Total - 1500

 

It throws a silly amount of lead into the air for those little vehicles, while doubling your troops, and increasing model count by about 50%.

 

RP1 goes with the LF's to add d6 S7 shots.

RP2 goes with the bikers.

 

I will say though that from what you listed I can only account for about 1/2 of your opponent's points (unless they're spending tons on upgrades).

[the jeske]

What is 'spammed TWC' then, can you elaborate??

2 lords 2x4 units . IP on twc . minimax razor for GH .+LF with RL.

 

 

Since the LF pack leader has the split fire ability, I can fire the Las at a vehicle and the rest of the pack at another target if needed.

I know how LF work. the problem is A you have to hit [still a 1/3 miss chance] B there is +4 cover in 5th C as you can do stuning with 15+RL against av13+ the las are there to do more then stun shake , a single one has a too low chance to do it .

2Las 3 RL set up if las are to be taken and it only works because SW can take 2-3 of such units .

 

 

If my Termis are 'bad', what do you think would make them good??

they cost too much to be an effective boost . I understand the use of WG as champs [for extra fist attacks for example and higher LD] I understand the use of single cyclon dude to boost the LF [and give them a +2 armor dude with an inv] , a unit of termis is plain bad ergo it cant be made good[and no I dont mean for tournaments].

 

hiros list is a good one to start with . lots of shoting [remember all DE "tanks" are low armor] lots of bodies , I probably wouldnt gamble with a swift claw +bike HQ set up , because of all those poisons ignoring t5 .

I would also cut 2 units down to 5 gh and give them razors and insteaf of the swifts took LF .

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

Well jeske, I guess I haven't elaborated enough about my intentions. I AM NOT A COMPETITIVE PLAYER!!

I didn't mean to imply you didn't know about the LF split fire ability. I understand now that running two las increases my hit ratio, I was running one because penning on armor 11 requires a 3+ and that's a fairly reasonable number to hit on a sixer. But that aside, I will test out two Las and three ML.

I don't know what you mean by 'IP on TWC'.

I feel like you may be coming at me like I am not as competent of a player as you, and that may be true. But I am don't need to be talked down too over the internet because you may think the anonymity hides your arrogance. Which, unless I am vastly mistaken, it is not.

 

End of Line

[Roma]

A full-drop pod list would really take him off-guard. Eldar need the first punch, If u suddenly jump them and rid them of their transports, u have gotten rid of their greatest strenght, mobility and firepower. I would suggest lots of 5-man grey hunter squads with a melta, and a wolf guard with termi armor and a cyclone, in a drop pod with a deathwind launcher. Drop in, blow the raider with the cyclone and melta, gun the troops with the deathwing. Try to give him first turn to trick him into deploying his army, then keep yours in reserve, drop on his head, crush his troops. Thats a draw at least.

 

Spend your spare points on emty pods with deathwinds for contesting objectives, this is also an insurance policy. The deploy first trick probably not work a second time, so he will probably also go in reserve. by taking empty drop pods you make sure that you have more units than him, meaning you guaranteed to get some punches in even if more of your units come in first than his.

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

I am NOT looking for a tier 1 list here, nor am I wanting to totally change my already built and mostly painted army. With that being said, I want suggestions and changes that don't totally demand me to purchase, build, and paint a new army.

 

Roma, I like your ideas a lot and I use the pod tactic quite well with my WolfWing army. I don't play that any less than 2000 point though, it's too costly at that level. So I will try running three pods, two full of Grey Hunters, and the other for either a LF pack or a TDAWG. The a fore mentioned reason is the purpose for my building a lower point army like this. I have 25 grey hunters total, and I am not interested in investing in more them as I am a TDA fanatic. But breaking the GH's into five man packs with an attached cyclone sounds good, but for one WGTDA with the launcher I need four more to go with him. So maybe I should run four PAWG and one TDAWG with the CML in a D pod with a deathwind. Then two GH packs in rhinos. I could put five of the Hunters in a pod as well, as I have three of them currently.

 

i like the idea of the TWC, but they may be to point intensive for these sized games. I will continue to test them against the DE too see if they are worth the investment.

 

Thank you Brothers!!

 

End of Line

[Stormbrow II]

I am NOT looking for a tier 1 list here, nor am I wanting to totally change my already built and mostly painted army. With that being said, I want suggestions and changes that don't totally demand me to purchase, build, and paint a new army.

You really should state this at the start to stop people wasting their time. I'll try not to end on this and be constructive though.

 

SW hate facing DE - we rely on having lots of warm bodies (GH & LF Infantry, TWC cav) to get the job done and DE have lots of anti-infantry shooting. Hide. Like a boss. Use any transports to hide your Fangs in turn one and then move out of the way to give your units LOS to plug up to 2 vehicles with each of your units. It's the Fangs that will win you the game against DE but you need them to last til the end of the game so that you can drop the DE mobility and pin them down where bolters will decimate the grunts and melta/plasma will gut the vehicles.

[hendrik]

if you were to pod a unit i would droppod the terminators instead of the long fangs, this way you're not waisting a turn of their shooting, not to mention an unlucky scatter can mean they'll have to move the next turn aswell

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

I updated the OP Stormbrow, thank you for that suggestion. I usually place my LF in a high or covered vantage point, so I suppose this is about me learning to play my army better. I had not thought about hiding the LF's behind vehicles as you suggested. i will be testing that tacyic this week for certain!!

 

Hendrik: Good point, plus I have more experience with that tactic than I do with podding LF's sans Grimnar.

 

These are the kind of suggestions I am looking for. Descriptive and positive!! Keep em coming brothers!!

 

End of Line

[hendrik]

how about letting a normal terminator join the long fangs packs (this gives them a good armour save, and some protection should they get attacked) and put the CML terminator with one of the plasma hunter packs. this way your heavy support is more spread out and allow for a bigger reach so to speak. the way i see it you want these guys to come towards you. a landspeeder typhoon might be interesting as well but i'm not sure if you have one and or if it'll stay alive long enough against those lances. TLLC razorbacks seem like a good option aswell, forcing your opponent to choose which threat he will take out first

[Grey Mage]

Id Drop the terminators, get a third grey hunter pack with plasma guns- and perhaps get enough GHs that you can put plasmaguns in one of the other packs aswell.

 

Id probly drop the TW riding Lord in favor of a Rune Priest with Tempests Wrath and Living Lightning, to make a mess of him. Alternatively subbing in Bjorn for that better chance at a first turn salvo would give you an edge, and dreadnaughts are always alot of fun. If you do take the Rune Priest it could be worth adding more members to your thunderwolves, a Dreadnaught, or a couple landspeeders- probly Typhoons, or perhaps dual heavy bolters if you need a boost to your infantry killing power (they are also decently effective against raiders do to weight of fire).

 

Otherwise just remember- dont spread out your forces, and dont charge out with your thunderwolves! Make a strongpoint, use the natural cover of the board and what rhinos you bring to castle up and force him to come to you so he cant do what the DE specialize in- picking you off peice by peice before coming in for the kill.

[trefenwyd]

Howdy all,

 

I'll just relay my quick experience last game vs. DE at 1500 and annihilation. He fielded 2 ravagers (3 DL apeice), 3 raiders (1 w/archon/incubi, 1 w/wyches, 1 w/wracks), and 2 venom (1 w/trueborn + blasters, 1 w/warriors).

I fielded:

Rune Priest w/LL, TW

8 GH, melta, rhino (H/K missile)

5 GH, flamer, razor LC/TLPG

5 GH, flamer, razor, LC/TLPG

10 Wolf Guard (3 x CM/PF in GH squads, 1 CML w/LFs, 6 CM/BP in drop pod)

6 LFs (sq ldr, 2 HB, 3 ML)

6 LFs (sq ldr, 2 HB, 3 ML)

6 LFs (sq ldr, 2 HB, 3 ML)

 

With a little bit of luck (I went first and disabled all raiders and ripped apart his incubi with my long ranged fire before he even got to move), I tabled him in 4 turns while only losing 2 total models. His ravagers got one turn of shooting each, which failed to destroy my razorbacks. Every dark lance was destroyed by the time he started his turn 2. The combined shooting of 3 LF squads, a Rune Priest in a rhino w/ H/K missile, 2 LC razors, and a podding combi-melta suicide team is enough to daunt most armies. This list was specifically modified for DE, as normally I run a bit different, but it worked to perfection.

[eyeslikethunder]

ok you dont want a new army

 

what do you have?

so we can tell you what to take? or not take

 

Tactics

1) seek cover he has a lot ap2 meaning you need cover to say alive

2) Stay close, supported and Castle. Eldar of both forms work by separating one bit off your army and killing it so it can not retaliate. basically make sure if he wants to hurt you he has to take some pain back from most your army

3)More long ranged firepower more bodies.

4) if you really want to take your twc/ TDA I would either try put them in reserve/DP so they get a chance make a difference late in the game. or find them somewhere very safe to try to hide them

 

You say you dont want a better list but your opponent has a better list than you for this match up. unfortunately the TWC and TDA play to the strengths of his list

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

eyeslikethunder, I never said I didn't want a better list, only that I am not going to throw in a run Razorspam or the like. I like to play somewhat unique armies, which I though my list exemplified quite well.

 

I Own:

25 Grey Hunters (4 melta, 2 plas, 3 standards, 2 power fists)

2 Rhino/Razorbacks (TL Las)

Rune Priest in TDA

Wolf Priest in TDA

Logan Grimnar

3 drop Pods

3 TWC (3 storm shield, thunder hammer)

TWL (storm shield, wolf claw)

30-something WGTDA (4 CML, 2 combi-melta, 2 combi-plas, all arms magnetized so I can equip what ever)

16 Long Fangs (5 Plas cannon, 1 Heavy Bolter, 6 Missile Launchers, 2 lascannons)

2 magnetized Dreadnoughts (missile launcher, las cannon, plas cannon, heavy flamer, melta)

 

I have an obviously bad tendency to spread out a bit, so it's good to know that making a phalanx is a solid tactic.

 

Here's what I am thinking:

TDARP with Hurricane and Lightning

5 TDAWG with CML , 2x storm shield (goes with the LF packs), 2x claws

10 GH in a rhino with 1 melta, 1 plasma, standard

10 GH in a rhino with 1 melta, 1 plasma, standard

5 GH in a TL razorback, 1 plasma gun

3 TWC with 3 shields, thunder hammer, melta bombs

6 LF's with 3 ML, 2 plas

6 LF's with 3 ML, 2 plas

Not sure on the points, but the TWC would be the first to go.

 

Thanks brothers!! I have a game this coming thursday which I will post a rep for. Until then any list suggestions would continue to help!!

 

End of Line

[Karack Blackstone]

If the OP has a Dread, fielding one or two with Plasma Cannons can truly make a difference, seeing as there is no chance of overheat causing a problem to a vehicle/walker. Just a thought, however they are expensive in both points and money; the only reason I bring it up is that the armor is typically only 12, and therefore not wasted on Dark Lance hits.

 

LF's can on occasion roll a 1; for a Dread, it's not even a concern.

[hendrik]

i'd go double plasma on those grey hunters instead of melta+ plasma, first of all you don't really need the melta against those raiders, second of all you're bunkering up, do you really think your opponent will manouvre himself into your melta range? with the plasmas you'll be able to hurl a lot more fire into them. on the other hand i really don't see Twc fitting into this list, but then again i've never played them. with the limited models you've got acces to maybe expanding the wolf guard pack is interesting, or maybe even fielding a second wolf guard pack?

[Karack Blackstone]

i'd go double plasma on those grey hunters instead of melta+ plasma, first of all you don't really need the melta against those raiders, second of all you're bunkering up, do you really think your opponent will manouvre himself into your melta range?

 

I concur. Two Plasma Guns, while not ideal as far as overheats go, have better range, Instant Death for most of the DE HQ's if they take the hit (most any DE model at that) and they provide a real deterrent to getting close that most enemies tend not to want to tangle with. Plasma is in this list your friend, fielded properly. If you can get Las/Plas Razorbacks that may help, if chosen for your Long Fangs; your GH's you want the numbers and Rhinos for getting where they need to be.

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

I am thinking of proxying two twin autocannon dreads for the game tonight. What do yo all think about that??

 

We also decided to bump the game up to 2K, but instead of playing my typical WolfWing list I still want to test out some of these ideas and tactics. I will be taking two GH packs in rhinos with two plas and a standard each. Then I will be taking two Razorbacks with TL Las and five GH inside each. I'm dropping the TWC as of now for the two rifleman dreads. Rune Priest Rhapsody will go with a five man WGTDA pack after the two storm shield members join the two LF packs. Each of those will have 3 ML and 2 LC.

 

I am also debating on whether or not running three D pods (one being empty) will WGTDA in them for dropping behind his forces is a good tactic or not. My plan is to phalanx up in a corner and make him come to me, so once he has moved into dark lance range the pod will come down and make him split his fire up even more.

 

Any and all advice is still welcome and appreciated. I'll post a bat rep tomorrow.

 

End of Line

[Karack Blackstone]

Four shots at S7, AP4 should prove useful. At 2K the WGTDA is hard for me to call: most podding lists tend to include an even number rather than three, although the empty Pod may prove an interesting change. What mission type is typically played between you two?

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

We always roll for mission types. but for some F'ed up reason we end up playing Total Annihilation/Dawn of War more than any other...

 

The empty pod will come down first turn and possibly contest an objective. The other two will hopefully come down mid to late game and offer some needed support or do some skimmer blowing up.

 

I tried to use what I had to build this list and also tried to keep all my heavies at a 48' range so that I will be able to hit him first (hopefully).

 

End of Line

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

Well, all of you advice paid off brothers!! We ended up playing Pitched Battle/Annihilation (of course...) and the final score was- Me:9 and Mike:3

 

This is the list I ended up running:

 

Logan Grimnar

 

Rune Priest Rhapsody

-TDA

-Master of Runes with Tempest Wrath and Living Lightning

 

Dreadnought

-2x TL Autocannon

 

Dreadnought

-2xAutocannon

 

Grey Hunter Pack (6)

-Plasma Gun

-Razorback with TL Las

 

Grey Hunter Pack (6)

-Plasma Gun

-Razorback with TL Las

 

Wolf Guard Pack (5)

-5x TDA

-Wolf Claw/Storm Shield

-Wolf Claw/Storm Shield

-Storm Bolter/Power Fist/Cyclone Missile Launcher

-Storm Bolter/Power Weapon

 

Wolf Guard Pack (5)

-5x TDA

Wolf Claw/Combi-Plas

Wolf Claw/Combi-Plas

Storm Bolter/Power Fist/Cyclone Missile Launcher

-Storm Bolter/Power Weapon

 

Long Fang Pack (6)

-3x Missile Launcher

-2x Las Cannon

 

Long Fang Pack (6)

-3x Missile Launcher

-2x Las Cannon

 

Predator

-TL Las Cannons

-Heavy Bolter Sponson

-Extra Armor

 

His list was included three raiders, two Razorwings, two venoms, a ravager, ten wytches, 6 jetbikes, and the Homunculus with five of the infiltrating guys (mandrakes??). His list was not optimized (neither was mine) due to model restraints.

 

I seized the initiative from him, which really was a foreshadowing of how the game would end up going for him.

In the first three turns I took out two of the raiders, a razorwing, immobilized the other razorwing and blew off both DL's, and immobilized one of the Venoms. After that he literally rolled over as I bunkered up in a corner and made him come to me with his remaining models.

 

I would say the best thing for my list was the addition of several Las Cannons and 48'' ranged weapons in general. Phalaxing up and making him come to me, or at least come into my firing range was also crucial.

 

Thank you all for the help, I feel like I can still play a fun, fluffish list and be competitive.

 

End of Line

[WG Vrox]

My only suggestion would be to drop the extra armor on the Pred and the Master of the runes and 1 Grey hunter or some other way to get 15 points, Then I would add 2 more Razor Backs for the Fangs. I would have the Las Cannon Razor Backs go with the long fangs and the Heavy Bolter Razor Back go with the Grey Hunters.

 

Having a higher priority target than the long fangs sitting in the same line of fire gives the Long Fangs one more turn of non-interrupted fire. In addition using the Razor Back to block line of sight has paid off in spades for me. just some thoughts. Its better to have the longer range unit in the back and the HB RB will give you some anti-horde support.

 

I get that one of the Long Fang units might not be able to use the Razor Back but having the flexibility is worth 80 points.

 

list looks pretty good as is though.

Vrox

Logan Grimnar

 

Rune Priest Rhapsody

-TDA

-Master of Runes with Tempest Wrath and Living Lightning

 

Dreadnought

-2x TL Autocannon

 

Dreadnought

-2xAutocannon

 

Grey Hunter Pack (6)

-Plasma Gun

-Razorback with TL Las

 

Grey Hunter Pack (6)

-Plasma Gun

-Razorback with TL Las

 

Wolf Guard Pack (5)

-5x TDA

-Wolf Claw/Storm Shield

-Wolf Claw/Storm Shield

-Storm Bolter/Power Fist/Cyclone Missile Launcher

-Storm Bolter/Power Weapon

 

Wolf Guard Pack (5)

-5x TDA

Wolf Claw/Combi-Plas

Wolf Claw/Combi-Plas

Storm Bolter/Power Fist/Cyclone Missile Launcher

-Storm Bolter/Power Weapon

 

Long Fang Pack (6)

-3x Missile Launcher

-2x Las Cannon

 

Long Fang Pack (6)

-3x Missile Launcher

-2x Las Cannon

 

Predator

-TL Las Cannons

-Heavy Bolter Sponson

-Extra Armor