Necron Difficult/Dangerous Question

[KnowThyEnemy]

Ok gentlemen. got a question to pose the OR since this impacts all those MSU armies out there. my question involves orikan the diviner, a c'tan shard with writhing worldscape and dawn of war deployment. if the necron player has first turn and moves on all of his peeps, this means that for his opponents 1st turn, the whole board will be dangerous terrain (orikan makes the whole board difficult on turn 1, actual difficult counts as 1D6 less movement and the c'tan makes all difficult count as dangerous, dangerous count as failing on a 1 or 2).

now heres the issue, most people will toss out a razorback or something similar in deployment and then move on turn 1, per the mission deployment rules. being that the whole board is dangerous, that means there is a good number of checks to be taken. what happens if a vehicle rolls a 1 or a 2 when trying to move on? i believe the current rule set states they are immobilised as soon as they hit the terrain (i.e. currently the board edge), but that would mean they are trapped off the table. are they destroyed? are their passengers destroyed? are they placed on the board a minimum amount and then immobilised? quote me some rules, brothers ;)

[JamesI]

Immobilized off the board = destroyed. I watched a deathwing player try to bring his land raider crusader with terminator command squad, Belial and a chaplain on in a forest. Rolled that 1, over 700 points gone.

[Gentlemanloser]

Dozer Blades FTW?

 

(Not that you could use a Dozer on the LR as per Jame's senario above!)

[breng77]

YUp, the vehicle and squad would be destroyed, which means against this trick unless you are walking your models onto the board (and probably even then), or have tons of dozerblades/siege shields, reserving your whole army is probably wise.

[Gentlemanloser]

I suppose we should add that it's not just imobilised you have to watch out for, but also if the difficult terrain test doesn't allow you to move the entire mini on (potentially only MCs? The NDK has a large base...) that too would be destroyed, as you can't be part on/part off the board.

[dswanick]

being that the whole board is dangerous, that means there is a good number of checks to be taken. what happens if a vehicle rolls a 1 or a 2 when trying to move on? i believe the current rule set states they are immobilised as soon as they hit the terrain (i.e. currently the board edge), but that would mean they are trapped off the table. are they destroyed? are their passengers destroyed? are they placed on the board a minimum amount and then immobilised? quote me some rules, brothers ;)

This one is easy and answered by the Rulebook FAQ:

"Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but is unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)

A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play."

[Something Wycked]

Those dirty xeno scum. Imagine how much the "worldscape" must be "writhing" to completely swallow/destroy a Land Raider. :)

 

I suppose we should add that it's not just imobilised you have to watch out for, but also if the difficult terrain test doesn't allow you to move the entire mini on (potentially only MCs? The NDK has a large base...) that too would be destroyed, as you can't be part on/part off the board.

MC's do have Move Through Cover so will be rolling 3d6, but there's still a decent chance of rolling all low numbers. As you point out, the base is rather large... Scary stuff.

[KnowThyEnemy]

some good solid replies, thank you gentlemen. i believe that clears my mind on the subject. another question: the stormlord's night fighting ability comes equipped with some lightning loving every necron shooting phase (until you fail the roll to keep the night fighting going). my question is are there cover saves for these lightning strikes outside of being in area terrain? on the one hand, id say the lightning is a board-wide effect and doesn't require LOS to a target, so it would act like a barrage weapon for the purposes of cover saves. on the other hand, there is no designation as to where this attack originates, so it could be stated that since it is the stormlord's ability that is causing it, cover saves can be taken based upon the relation of terrain between him and the target being hit. thoughts?

[Elric the Silvercoat]

Well that is a good question but I would say that act like Barrage Weapons and only give cover saves if you are in Area Terrain.

[JamesI]

I would consider it like barrage. so cover only for in area terrain or within range of a ork kustom Force field or the like (shield of Sanguinius or the Space Wolf equivalent I can't recall the name of)

[Gentlemanloser]

For RAW, I'd probably lean to direction from the Stormlord. As it's not a 'barrage' weapon and shouldn't gain the benefits of such.

[Squirrelloid]

What's the order of operations for those abilities?

 

You seem to imply we make the whole board difficult terrain first, then transform all difficult terrain into dangerous.

 

What if it makes all difficult terrain dangerous, then we make the rest of the board difficult?

 

I don't have the necron codex, so i don't have a reason to prefer one or the other. If both are equally likely, I'd tend to think the latter was intended since it isn't quite as crazy. But basically this is a problem of the abilities not being communative, and so order of operations really matters.

 

(no disagreement that vehicles which can't make it onto the board are destroyed)

[falldown]

There is an if/then statement involved Squirrel. If terrain is difficult then it counts as dangerous. If terrain is dangerous then it counts as dangerous that impacts on a 1 or a 2. As soon as the terrain becomes difficult then it counts as dangerous. It is in fact that crazy, but costs an incredible amount of points to have happen.

 

as an addendum. if the ability makes terrain dangerous, it does not snowball to dangerous mark 2. Only terrain already agreed to be dangerous becomes dangerous 2.

 

But really all that matters is this.

 

Q: Does Writhing Worldscape cause every model moving

through difficult terrain, moving as if in difficult terrain

and counting as moving through difficult terrain to take

a Dangerous Terrain test? (p41)

A: Yes. For example a unit hit by a tremor stave would

have to take Dangerous Terrain tests if they moved in

the following turn, as would any unit moving in the first

turn of the game if their opponent had Orikan the

Diviner.

 

Orikan is the source of the "all terrain is difficult on the first turn" rule (wording not exact). The C'tan has the Writhing Worldscape ability to make all difficult terrain dangerous.

[Ming]

Hey...I brought this topic up last month...

 

If you have an opponent with these powers, your deployment stategy will be key, offset a bit if you have dozer blades (focus of my OP).

 

If DOW, and you are mech, you might consider hunkering back with your 1HQ and 2 troops, and reserve everything else, or deliver select turn 1 reinforcements (1-inch bases) on turn 1 by foot. Wait till turn 2+ to bring in the vehicles or larger based stuff.

 

If the necrons have the stormlord, yeah his uber-cheese is that all unengaged units take lightning strikes till the darkness ends every necron shooting phase, which is crazy! EVERY unegaged unit. What S8 AP5? Again, the purpose is to get you to reserve stuff to limit that damage. Razorbacks and rhinos would all be easy targets on turn 1 going in to turn 2+.

 

Experience, experience, experience will count alot here.

[Morollan]

If the necrons have the stormlord, yeah his uber-cheese is that all unengaged units take lightning strikes till the darkness ends every necron shooting phase, which is crazy!

 

It is only on a 6 though, so not really that good and Imotekh costs a lot of points.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

If the necrons have the stormlord, yeah his uber-cheese is that all unengaged units take lightning strikes till the darkness ends every necron shooting phase, which is crazy!

 

It is only on a 6 though, so not really that good and Imotekh costs a lot of points.

And you roll for each unit so there is a chance he will hit none, some, or all of them in one turn.

[Squirrelloid]

There is an if/then statement involved Squirrel. If terrain is difficult then it counts as dangerous. If terrain is dangerous then it counts as dangerous that impacts on a 1 or a 2. As soon as the terrain becomes difficult then it counts as dangerous. It is in fact that crazy, but costs an incredible amount of points to have happen.

 

as an addendum. if the ability makes terrain dangerous, it does not snowball to dangerous mark 2. Only terrain already agreed to be dangerous becomes dangerous 2.

 

But really all that matters is this.

 

Q: Does Writhing Worldscape cause every model moving

through difficult terrain, moving as if in difficult terrain

and counting as moving through difficult terrain to take

a Dangerous Terrain test? (p41)

A: Yes. For example a unit hit by a tremor stave would

have to take Dangerous Terrain tests if they moved in

the following turn, as would any unit moving in the first

turn of the game if their opponent had Orikan the

Diviner.

 

Orikan is the source of the "all terrain is difficult on the first turn" rule (wording not exact). The C'tan has the Writhing Worldscape ability to make all difficult terrain dangerous.

 

That helps a lot. Its not that all difficult terrain becomes dangerous terrain, its that models who have to take a difficult terrain test ALSO take a dangerous terrain test. The terrain is still only difficult terrain though.

[Morollan]

That helps a lot. Its not that all difficult terrain becomes dangerous terrain, its that models who have to take a difficult terrain test ALSO take a dangerous terrain test. The terrain is still only difficult terrain though.

 

Not exactly. To summarise the various terrain affecting abilities of the Necrons:

 

Temporal Snares (1st turn only) - all enemy units that move count as moving through Difficult Terrain. If they are actually moving through Difficult Terrain then they only move the lowest D6 result of their DT test, not the highest.

 

Writhing Worldscape - all Difficult Terrain is also Dangerous. If it is already Dangerous, test failed on 1 or 2.

 

Tremorstave - treat open ground as difficult terrain

[Squirrelloid]

That helps a lot. Its not that all difficult terrain becomes dangerous terrain, its that models who have to take a difficult terrain test ALSO take a dangerous terrain test. The terrain is still only difficult terrain though.

 

Not exactly. To summarise the various terrain affecting abilities of the Necrons:

 

Temporal Snares (1st turn only) - all enemy units that move count as moving through Difficult Terrain. If they are actually moving through Difficult Terrain then they only move the lowest D6 result of their DT test, not the highest.

 

Writhing Worldscape - all Difficult Terrain is also Dangerous. If it is already Dangerous, test failed on 1 or 2.

 

Tremorstave - treat open ground as difficult terrain

 

So Temporal Snares only make units count as if they are moving through difficult terrain, it doesn't actually make the entire table difficult terrain. Therefore they don't count as moving through dangerous terrain, because only actual terrain is made dangerous?

[Morollan]

That helps a lot. Its not that all difficult terrain becomes dangerous terrain, its that models who have to take a difficult terrain test ALSO take a dangerous terrain test. The terrain is still only difficult terrain though.

 

Not exactly. To summarise the various terrain affecting abilities of the Necrons:

 

Temporal Snares (1st turn only) - all enemy units that move count as moving through Difficult Terrain. If they are actually moving through Difficult Terrain then they only move the lowest D6 result of their DT test, not the highest.

 

Writhing Worldscape - all Difficult Terrain is also Dangerous. If it is already Dangerous, test failed on 1 or 2.

 

Tremorstave - treat open ground as difficult terrain

 

So Temporal Snares only make units count as if they are moving through difficult terrain, it doesn't actually make the entire table difficult terrain. Therefore they don't count as moving through dangerous terrain, because only actual terrain is made dangerous?

 

No. On the first turn the entire table counts as Difficult Terrain and therefore Writhing Worldscape also makes that terrain dangerous, as specified in the Necron FAQ:

 

Q: Does Writhing Worldscape cause every model moving

through difficult terrain, moving as if in difficult terrain

and counting as moving through difficult terrain to take

a Dangerous Terrain test? (p41)

A: Yes. For example a unit hit by a tremor stave would

have to take Dangerous Terrain tests if they moved in

the following turn, as would any unit moving in the first

turn of the game if their opponent had Orikan the

Diviner.

[Squirrelloid]

That helps a lot. Its not that all difficult terrain becomes dangerous terrain, its that models who have to take a difficult terrain test ALSO take a dangerous terrain test. The terrain is still only difficult terrain though.

 

Not exactly. To summarise the various terrain affecting abilities of the Necrons:

 

Temporal Snares (1st turn only) - all enemy units that move count as moving through Difficult Terrain. If they are actually moving through Difficult Terrain then they only move the lowest D6 result of their DT test, not the highest.

 

Writhing Worldscape - all Difficult Terrain is also Dangerous. If it is already Dangerous, test failed on 1 or 2.

 

Tremorstave - treat open ground as difficult terrain

 

So Temporal Snares only make units count as if they are moving through difficult terrain, it doesn't actually make the entire table difficult terrain. Therefore they don't count as moving through dangerous terrain, because only actual terrain is made dangerous?

 

No. On the first turn the entire table counts as Difficult Terrain and therefore Writhing Worldscape also makes that terrain dangerous, as specified in the Necron FAQ:

 

Q: Does Writhing Worldscape cause every model moving

through difficult terrain, moving as if in difficult terrain

and counting as moving through difficult terrain to take

a Dangerous Terrain test? (p41)

A: Yes. For example a unit hit by a tremor stave would

have to take Dangerous Terrain tests if they moved in

the following turn, as would any unit moving in the first

turn of the game if their opponent had Orikan the

Diviner.

 

Ok, i grant the FAQ does say that. The bolded statement by you is inaccurate though. The table doesn't count as difficult terrain, instead all enemy models count as moving through difficult terrain, which is a totally different statement.

 

Only the FAQ causes the dangerous terrain bit to apply. Without the FAQ it wouldn't. (GW fails at errata, and FAQs things that should have been errata, but what else is new).

 

Anyway, I think we're in agreement on what's actually happening now.

[Spacefrisian]

Immobilized off the board = destroyed. I watched a deathwing player try to bring his land raider crusader with terminator command squad, Belial and a chaplain on in a forest. Rolled that 1, over 700 points gone.

 

 

Teaches him to simply deploy that chunk of points (minus 1hq) the next time.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

I hope we all realize that there doesnt need to be a C'tan what with vehicles taking Difficult as Dangerous.

 

 

Im always sort of perplexed with how to apply "If a unit has a special rule forcing it to move in a specific direction (such as 'rage', for example) or that could stop it from moving, this rule is ignored in the phase when it arrives from reserve." pg. 94 To situations like this. It feels as though it should apply and yet I have difficulty justifying it.

[Gentlemanloser]

That wouldn't apply to this as the unit in question (say a Land Raider) doesn't have any rules that apply.

 

The rules are actually for the terrain/opponent.

 

If that makes sense. ;)

 

Edit: It would be applicable for rules like GK Servitors 'Mind Lock'. A failed roll means they can't move, which would mean they couldn't enter play, and would be destroyed.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

That wouldn't apply to this as the unit in question (say a Land Raider) doesn't have any rules that apply.

 

The rules are actually for the terrain/opponent.

 

If that makes sense. ;)

 

Edit: It would be applicable for rules like GK Servitors 'Mind Lock'. A failed roll means they can't move, which would mean they couldn't enter play, and would be destroyed.

 

but for say the Necron Character whom it could stop, it would not apply?