Brother Captain Kezef Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I've noticed a trend lately, for people to read what they want to read in the horus heresy fluff. I've noticed one or two Wolf players who seem to think their Legion is the "uber, super-duper, anti-chaos legion of awesome". Not picking on anyone, just using the first example I could find. It's been made clear that each Primarch had a purpose, some (but not all) had their purpose tied into their legion, some where individual. Let's examine them, first the one's whose purpose is confirmed or can be figured out with a good level of certainty. ALL of these purposes where desighned for POST-CRUSADE, during the crusade it was a case of all hands on deck, the Prmarchs where desighned for something greater, long-term before the Heresy screwed it all to hell and back. Magnus: The first Primarch in our list who's legion doesn't actualy matter. It's been made very clear that magnus was the guy supposed to sit on the golden throne for eternity and power the astronomicon beacon on Terra. His legion where a side-effect, which is probably why the Emperor never bothered to fix their mutation isues and it was left to magnus (by making a deal with the devil so to speak) to salvage his legion. The Emperor only wanted Magnus, he didn't care about Magnus' legion. Petuarbo and Dorn: These guys are the architects of the Imperium, it's pretty clear their job post-crusade would be to fortify the Imperium, to build a fortress out of the Imperium that wuld last forever. Horus: Horus was bred to be the Emperor's executive officer, right hand man and second in command. Russ: The executioner,post-crusade he seems to have been the guy bred to be the final arbiter, the judgement of the Emperor, the guy who gets sent in to do a job, any job, without mercy, without compassion. His legion was not desighned to fight the warp, his was desighned to fight anythinga and everything that the Emperor needed them to fight, even ther own kind. Guiliman: Where Dorn and Petuarbo where to build the Imperium's defence, Guiliman was to build the Imperium. He was an architect of Humanity, the architect of civilisation. Lorgar: The last of the architects, the architect of the soul. He was to build the Imperium's hearts, had he not taken his role too literaly and found himself worshipping the Emperor, he could of been responsible for the Imperial truth post-crusade. The others I'm not sure about. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Willy Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Fulgrim would probably be the artist, build monuments and what not maybe or perhaps he and his legion would be one that would be defenders of the imperium, were Russ would attack, Fulgrim would react and lend his troops to areas that would require quick and effective support. Corax would probably be like the inquesition of sorts, working the shadows watching for enemy spies. Alpharius and Omegon would be the opposite, working outside the imperium to spy on the enemys of the Imperium. Vulkan would run the industry i think, probably working to maintain the output of the forgeworlds. Ferrus would control advancement i think, rather then what is made he d be working on developing new STCs Sanguinius would prob be in charge of the armies, he s meant to be the most charismatic and leader like. Konrad I reckon was meant to be a prophet for the emperor and help to forsee dangers in the future. those would be my guesses. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/#findComment-2970389 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Primarchs are created for war. Retooling them for peaceful situations is futile. If all went smoothly i think they would have shared the fate of Thunder Warriors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/#findComment-2970411 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Once again, people are making the mistake of assuming the Space Wolf was right. We know that Russ and the Space Wolves were almost certainly used to destroy at least one of the missing Legions, but that does not in any way mean that they were created specifically for that task. We also know that the Night Lords probably shared the task, if it did exist, as Aurelian has the Night Lords fighting alongside the Space Wolves to take down the Word Bearers in an alternate timeline. However, the Night Lords seem to have been more proactive in their terror-tactics, as we know they apparently made several visits to conquered worlds that seemed a tad too unstable. The Night Haunter wasn't the Emperors Prophet, he was the Emperors Judgement made manifest, punishing all who strayed, and making the most severe of examples of them. Personally, I'm of the opinion that the Primarchs chose their own roles, as it were. We know that there was some small genetic tampering, but adding canine DNA to Russ doesn't exactly mark him from birth to be an executioner. Night Haunter, for example, was purely a product of his upbringing, and he brought his experiences on Nostramo to his Legion, shaping the Legion in his image, and setting himself a role as the Emperors iron fist. Russ apparently gave himself a similar role. It doesn't, however, mean that when the Emperor created the VIIth Primarch, he said "Lo, and verily, this Primarch shall be the Executioner for my Imperium!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/#findComment-2970424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 You see i'm not so sure about Russ's legion being the final arbiter. I know they wiped out the Thousand sons but cmon, after all their planetary defences were lowered and the Space wolves were set to kill, where the Thousand sons were set to confusion. If raw unrelenting agression was to be used to wipe out a chapter id be more in favour of Angrons bunch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/#findComment-2970429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 That might be possible. But see I'd see Sanguinius and Fulgrim as the artists since they both were very similar in attitude before the EC fell from grace. Alpharius Omegon I could still see working as an internal police force as well as external while the Raven Guard would act on the external as a preemptive stime force and the Night Lords would work on the internal as a goon squad like the G-Men or the SS. You tend to behave as an Imperial citizen if you have to worry about a man wearing skulls sneaking up on you in the night rather than a silent blade that no one sees or hears. Prophecy can also come in handy if you want to know who will turn traitor. Ferrus and Vulkan would both definitely be involved with the Mechanicum. That's a no-brainer. I would see the Lion as the logistical, where-and-how-to-deploy-the-troops-kind-of-guy because they are making such a stress on his strategic thinking and logistical planning. He might be the one who leads the troops in Horus' stead. Angron I don't think he was meant to be a fighter because the first thing the Emperor did was pull him out of a fight that he could have easily won considering he took an entire wall falling on him. That and the description of having a handsome, heroic face behind the mask of rage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/#findComment-2970431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I to do not share the view that the Wolves were executioners, in Rules of Engagement Guilliman talks briefly about the World Eaters, saying how they would go further than any other legion. Perhaps the World Eaters were supposed to be the Emperors executioners but because of Anrgon's lack of stability, Russ was chosen instead? That is if the Emperor thought he needed a legion specifically for the task of destroying a legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/#findComment-2970432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Once again, people are making the mistake of assuming the Space Wolf was right. We know that Russ and the Space Wolves were almost certainly used to destroy at least one of the missing Legions, but that does not in any way mean that they were created specifically for that task. I agree with this. A lot of 40k fluff is rumors or someones point of view, not hard truths. We can know the Wolves considered themselves the executioners of other marines, not that the emperor intended that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/#findComment-2970436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Willy Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I don't know the emperor must have believed that eventually he would triumph over the physical threats to his rule, from what I've personally gathered from reading BL stuff, it sounds like the emperor was hoping to deny Chaos it's power by denying it's worship, after all if no one thought gods existed then no one would pray to the Chaos Gods for power, of course this would be stupid as humans need some form of spirituality. He, the emperor, would likely be so detached from humanity himself he would never recognise such a flaw. It's only logical that he would at the least give the Primarchs positions of importance when the Imperium is solidfied it's power. I reckon Angron and Russ would both fill the same role Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/#findComment-2970437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I dislike the concept of the Primarchs all being pigeonholed like this. To me its lame and takes away any interest in them. If horus had been found last do you think he still would be the executive officer? Doubt it. The HH series seems to be going this way with Magnus and the chair, Russ being the unconditionally loyal dog, etc. But to me the homeworlds the Primarchs landed on also have a huge role as does the their relationships (with the Emperor, and each other.) Not to mention the order they were found. Its not just nature. Its nature + nurture + life (giving you lemons and what not.) But to pigeonhole them, with their most defining characteristic. Lion - Tactician (his most notable feature) Fulgrim - Artist Perturabo - Siege Khan - Raider Russ - Executioner Dorn - Fortificator Konrad - Prophet (his nasty visions) Sanguinius - Saint/Angel/Hero Manus - Smith Angron - Weapon Guilliman - Organisation Mortarion - Infantry man Magnus - Throne warmer Horus - XO Lorgar - Iterator Vulkan - Smith Corax - Spec Ops Alpharius - Espionage That list leave you flat? It should. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/#findComment-2970439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 You see thats just it, I dont think any one legion was tasked to destory a legion. I think in terms of astartees theyre all just super strong and made for war. Thats what all the screening them as children is about. If i was going to take on a legion that matched my own in power, id call for another legions support to ensure the 1:1 factor became 2:1 factor Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/#findComment-2970443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidice Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Given that the primarchs were created to be all generals of his army, I believe that the emperor did not intend for them to have positions of power after the crusades. The emperor always considered the empire an empire of man, not astarte. The Astartes are warriors, and much grief comes from what they will do after the crusade. In Deliverance lost they do mention a primarch "retirement home" that was ment for after the crusade. I believe that he would do the same thing to the astartes as he did to the thunder warriors. As for comments about legions "purpose", we know that the emperor gave special attributes to the primarchs, but the planet/order they where retrieved is the biggest reason why the primarchs are different. Sanguinus could easily have ended up like Angron, and Angron could have been similiar to Horus if the situations where reversed. I would also assume that since Magnus was raised on Prospero (A planet with increased physic activity), it contributed greatly to his powers. Magnus: The first Primarch in our list who's legion doesn't actualy matter. It's been made very clear that magnus was the guy supposed to sit on the golden throne for eternity and power the astronomicon beacon on Terra. His legion where a side-effect, which is probably why the Emperor never bothered to fix their mutation isues and it was left to magnus (by making a deal with the devil so to speak) to salvage his legion. The Emperor only wanted Magnus, he didn't care about Magnus' legion. How does arguable the most powerful legion actually not matter? The Thousand Sons where easily the most devastating space marines by a long shot. Also the comment on the golden throne is wrong, originally the throne was built to be a gateway to the webway (thus removing any need for the choir/emperors light). Also, the emperor started to build the golden throne AFTER Magnus was found. You will learn that the emperor is naive to chaos taint during that time as anyone else, the concept of the emperor fixing the legion's flesh change is unlikely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/#findComment-2970612 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 As for comments about legions "purpose", we know that the emperor gave special attributes to the primarchs, but the planet/order they where retrieved is the biggest reason why the primarchs are different. Sanguinus could easily have ended up like Angron, and Angron could have been similiar to Horus if the situations where reversed. I would also assume that since Magnus was raised on Prospero (A planet with increased physic activity), it contributed greatly to his powers. It may seem like nurture makes a Primarch but there are many events that contradict that. GW deliberately toys with the idea but leaves most to interpretation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/#findComment-2970688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 You also have the fact that twenty super-enhanced beings made from the Emperor's purest genetic material combined with some sort of creation process that directly involved the Warp and, if First Heretic is to be believed, the Dark Gods themselves. And then you have the fact that the Dark Gods whispered to ALL of the Primarchs, again quoting First Heretic. You also have the fact that some of the Primarchs suffered genetic mishaps, Sanguinius' wings, Alpharius Omegon and I'm sure there are a few other, more subtle ones. BL and GW are really making it look like the personalities of the Primarchs, while blank slates, were biased towards certain ideas and the planets they landed on were perfect matches. Magnus, the most psychically-capable Primarch just happened to land on a planet of psykers. Lorgar, if you take Chaotic intervention out, just happened to land on a planet of religious fanatics who worshipped Chaos. Mortarion lands on a planet were warpcraft is used to raise the dead and happens to put him in the mindset to instigate the Council of Nikea. And that whole "777" thing they got him doing in A Thousand Sons is already making him look like he may have already known something about Nurgle and that his loyalty was already somewhat in question. Or at least his belief in the Imperial Truth. The more and more fluff/cannon/whatever GW and BL make about the HH, the more it looks like the Dark Gods had already laid down the foundation for the HH long before the Primarchs were swept away. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/#findComment-2970864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 Primarchs are created for war. Retooling them for peaceful situations is futile. If all went smoothly i think they would have shared the fate of Thunder Warriors. This is a HUGE mistake allot of people make. The Legions where made for war, the primarchs wheremade for so much more and would of fulfilled their potential if the heresy had not screwed it all up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/#findComment-2970872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Kol, the more it looks like the Dark Gods had already laid down the foundation for the HH long before the Primarchs were swept away. They did, they planned the Heresy for millennia in advance. The Emperor must have planned for the Primarchs to have roles after the Crusade, do you think 20 (well 18) super beings are just going to let themselves be killed or accept retirement? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/#findComment-2970904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kassill Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I don't want to get dragged into any "Primarch over yours" deals, but it is clearly stated that the Wolves were indeed the Executioners. SPOILERS FROM PROSPERO BURNS (Dont know how to do the black bar :) ) "I told you this. A role for each primarch-son. A role for each primarch's Legion. Defenders and Champions, storm troops and praetorians... we all have our duties. Sixth Legion are the executioners. We are the last lines. When all else fails, we are the ones expected to do whatever is necessary." "Isn't that true of all Legions?" Hawser asked. "You still don't understand, skjald. I'm talking about degree. There are lines that other Legions will not cross. There are divides of honour and fealty and devotion. There are some acts so ruthless, some deeds so unpalatable, that only the Vlka Fenryka are capable of undertaking them. It's what we were bred for. It's the way we were designed. Without qualm or sentiment, without hesitation or whimsy. We take pride in being the only Astartes who will never, under any circumstances, refuse to strike on the Allfather's behalf, no matter what the target, no matter what the cause." That is pretty clear and straightforward IMO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/#findComment-2970924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 My Legion is best, the Emperor said so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/#findComment-2970927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 No sigismund did Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/#findComment-2970938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I don't want to get dragged into any "Primarch over yours" deals, but it is clearly stated that the Wolves were indeed the Executioners. SPOILERS FROM PROSPERO BURNS (Dont know how to do the black bar :D ) "I told you this. A role for each primarch-son. A role for each primarch's Legion. Defenders and Champions, storm troops and praetorians... we all have our duties. Sixth Legion are the executioners. We are the last lines. When all else fails, we are the ones expected to do whatever is necessary." "Isn't that true of all Legions?" Hawser asked. "You still don't understand, skjald. I'm talking about degree. There are lines that other Legions will not cross. There are divides of honour and fealty and devotion. There are some acts so ruthless, some deeds so unpalatable, that only the Vlka Fenryka are capable of undertaking them. It's what we were bred for. It's the way we were designed. Without qualm or sentiment, without hesitation or whimsy. We take pride in being the only Astartes who will never, under any circumstances, refuse to strike on the Allfather's behalf, no matter what the target, no matter what the cause." That is pretty clear and straightforward IMO. The only thing clear and straight forward from this selection is that the speaker is convinced the Wolves are the Emperor's Executioners. There is no objective, unbiased look into his claims from an outside source. Until we have the Emperor himself come out and say what's what, all we have is opinions. And as my father always told me, "Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one and most of them are full of crap" (slightly edited for B&C) WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/#findComment-2970971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Arguably, though, since they did presumably take some/all of the two missing Legions out as well (reference for that I believe is TOD), that was their specialty. "There are some acts so ruthless, some deeds so unpalatable, that only the Vlka Fenryka are capable of undertaking them" saying that they are the SM killers is supported by the mindsets in the other books - remember that in previous HH books, Legionnaires literally scoffed at the idea that they would ever fight against their fellow Legionnaires (Horus Rising, I think), whereas the SW say 'no problemo' to that issue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/#findComment-2970988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Arguably, though, since they did presumably take some/all of the two missing Legions out as well (reference for that I believe is TOD), that was their specialty. "There are some acts so ruthless, some deeds so unpalatable, that only the Vlka Fenryka are capable of undertaking them" saying that they are the SM killers is supported by the mindsets in the other books - remember that in previous HH books, Legionnaires literally scoffed at the idea that they would ever fight against their fellow Legionnaires (Horus Rising, I think), whereas the SW say 'no problemo' to that issue. which might mean they are hard-asses, or simply not as naive as other marines in the other legions. evidence may point one way or another, but until we get actual comfirmation (which, this being GW, we'll never get), everything is hearsay. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/#findComment-2971005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I don't want to get dragged into any "Primarch over yours" deals, but it is clearly stated that the Wolves were indeed the Executioners. That is pretty clear and straightforward IMO. No, it's clearly stated that one particular Long Fang believes that, nothing more. It is not an objective view, it's also not a view from anyone with any particular rank within the Legion. Do the Space Wolves believe that theory? Probably. Does it make the theory objectively true, that the Emperor created them for that specific purpose? No. No it doesn't. You want to prove to me that the Wolves definitively had that role, show me a quote from Malcador, the Emperor, or numerous other Primarchs, not a single Legionnaire. As it stands, we've got an incredibly biased view. And please, somebody put my mind to rest. What deeds, what possible deeds, are there that the Night Lords or World Eaters wouldn't do to defeat a foe, but the Space Wolves would? To be fair, Aurelian does have the Space Wolves as one of the Legions (yes, they had others, specifically the Night Lords, fighting alongside them) to take down the Word Bearers in one other possible timeline. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/#findComment-2971185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I certainly love the idea that the Primarchs were made for a purpose, and the Horus Heresy has definitely shown that, especially with the Deliverance Lost's tidbit about how each Primarch had been genetically crafted in entirely different ways. The Emperor definitely had unique plans for each one. He purposefully made Alpharius smaller than the average Primarch, purposefully crafted canine genetic material into Russ (and it's stated it's not the only non-human genetic additions to the Primarchs), purposefully crafted Perturabo to have a higher tolerance of pain. Aside from the possibility that the Emperor was doing it 'for the lulz,' he had to have had a reason for it. I doubt he turned to a techpriest and demanded to be given twenty different randomly chosen variations of the core genetic material and build the Primarchs off of them. No, he knew exactly what kind of person he wanted each Primarch to be, and crafted them accordingly. However, it's also shown that nurture is as important as nature. Vulkan may have been pre-determined as a smith, as it's been described, but his caring and protectiveness of humanity came from Nocturne, and more specifically his adopted father. The Lion may have come into tactics and logistics more readily than he did other martial pursuits thanks to the Emperor's tweaks, but his sense of honor and duty is firmly an outcome of the knightly orders of Caliban. Truly, that was Chaos' biggest weapon in the Horus Heresy. It wasn't speaking with them in the Warp, or preventing the Emperor from having them. It was to give them a chance to nurture them after the Emperor gave them their natures. And it worked, mostly. Every single world a Primarch landed in that we've seen so far had something in it to tempt a Primarch to Chaos. Some of them were obvious, like Caliban housing a caged Daemon of Nurgle, or Lorgar's homeworld being run by cultists, or Sanguinius being tossed into a bunch of mutants. Some of them were more subtle, like the Chemos-driven need for an impossible perfection with Fulgrim. To the Primarchs, their nature is as important as their nurture, and in each case the two are very diverse. Of course, even if the Emperor had been able to have nurtured them as originally planned, who knows if there would've been a different outcome? After all, the closest he came to it was with Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/#findComment-2971189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 purposefully crafted Perturabo to have a higher tolerance of pain. Where is that stated ? I don't think he has much tolerance, he can't even handle competition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/#findComment-2971194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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