My legion is better than yours

[Conn Eremon]

purposefully crafted Perturabo to have a higher tolerance of pain.

 

Where is that stated ? I don't think he has much tolerance, he can't even handle competition.

 

Don't remember the exact page, but I talked about it in another thread. Here's that post:

 

I'm not quite done with the book yet, but there was one quote that really stood out for me and I delved into wikipedia to understand the technical terms.

Here's the quote:

 

‘Take this one, sample four, as an indicator,’ said the genetor majoris. ‘We have managed to identify at least six unique sub-complexes and protein strands geared towards physical durability, above and beyond that found in the others. In the same sample, there is a dearth of certain enhanced genes that, in our estimation, boost thecytoarchetectonic structure responsible for the development of nociceptors and proprioceptory function. The deficiency seems to be deliberate."

 

Now, Sample Four likely means Primarch IV. Which is Perturabo. Now, physical durability is obvious, but the rest might not be considering your academic background. A quick look through wikipedia and the Kindle dictionary (I know, not the best sources, but acceptable for the moment) shows that nociceptors is essentially what we use to feel pain, it's how our bodies register it. The lack or deficiency of it means you have a dulled sense of pain, or feel no pain. Which is an amazing counter to Rogal Dorn and his pain glove, don't you think? The proprioceptory function is basically our sense of self in relationship to ourself. You will always know where your hand is, sort of thing. People who have severed limbs who can still feel like it's still there is because while the limb is physically gone, their proprioception still includes it. This is from the wiki article talking about how a deficiency in your proprioception is experienced: "Possible experiences include suddenly feeling that feet or legs are missing from one's mental self-image; needing to look down at one's limbs to be sure they are still there; and falling down while walking, especially when attention is focused upon something other than the act of walking." 'cytoarchetectonic structure' by the way, references the 'architecture' of cells in a tissue, so it's basically saying that the Emperor deliberately modified Perturabo's genetic make-up to either completely lack or greatly decrease his nociceptors and proprioception. Why make a Primarch that has to constantly think about walking in order to keep from falling down? The other primarchs listed are interesting as well, to a lessened degree. The tech-priest finds non-human tissue, possibly canine-derived, in subject six, which is Leman Russ. Subject twenty, Alpharius, has far less growth boosting augmentations than the others.

 

 

Sorry if I took the spoiler tags too far.

 

It should be noted that another B&Cer who professed to being more knowledgeable about this sort of thing thinks that the proprioception thing just means that he'd be more susceptible and capable to add in additional information to his sense of 'self,' his proprioception. Like a servo-arm that Techmarines generally have, or that Techpriests are covered in. Essentially, it's just plain easier for him, according to this B&Cer. So take the 'deliberately creating a Primarch that has to consciously think about walking to keep from falling down' as nothing more than joke musing on my part.

[Lord_Caerolion]

purposefully crafted Perturabo to have a higher tolerance of pain.

 

Where is that stated ? I don't think he has much tolerance, he can't even handle competition.

 

In Deliverance Lost, it says that Primarch III's genetic data shows a stunted development of the nerves relating to sensing pain, as well as having lower a proprioreceptive sense.

 

edit: Dammit, ninja'd!

[Billuriye]

All very interesting thanks. I guess Perturabo being a cold bastard was Emperor's doing. Still odd though since a default Astartes can fight ignoring his spilled guts.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yes, they can fight while mentally blocking out the pain. In the case of Perturabo, he doesn't need to block it out mentally as much, his nerves aren't as sensitive.

[eyeslikethunder]

I've noticed a trend lately, for people to read what they want to read in the horus heresy fluff. I've noticed one or two Wolf players who seem to think their Legion is the "uber, super-duper, anti-chaos legion of awesome". Not picking on anyone, just using the first example I could find.

 

Actually i thought most the posts started with complaints from traitor legion fans(mainly a few loyalists as well) about how much the Space wolves were being bigged up in the HH books.

 

I just think some felt the wolves were encroaching their historical space. Had a massive moan/ winge which made space wolf fans defend their legion.

 

The DA had similar issues with BT recently

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I've noticed a trend lately, for people to read what they want to read in the horus heresy fluff. I've noticed one or two Wolf players who seem to think their Legion is the "uber, super-duper, anti-chaos legion of awesome". Not picking on anyone, just using the first example I could find.

 

Actually i thought most the posts started with complaints from traitor legion fans(mainly a few loyalists as well) about how much the Space wolves were being bigged up in the HH books.

 

I just think some felt the wolves were encroaching their historical space. Had a massive moan/ winge which made space wolf fans defend their legion.

 

The DA had similar issues with BT recently

 

I don't see it that way, as far as SW screentime goes. They got 1 book that showed how the Thousand Sons see them, a short story and a book showing how they see themselves.

 

Dark Angels have had two short stories and two full novels.

 

Sons of Horus got a short story and 3 full novels so far.

 

The Empeor's children, Raven Guard, Death Guard, Wordbearers (and very soon Ultramarines) have their own books.

 

I think the screentime is fair and I don't see the wolves as being "bigged up" their role within the crusade and their culture is being fleshed out properly is all.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I don't see it that way, as far as SW screentime goes. They got 1 book that showed how the Thousand Sons see them, a short story and a book showing how they see themselves.

 

Dark Angels have had two short stories and two full novels.

 

Sons of Horus got a short story and 3 full novels so far.

 

The Empeor's children, Raven Guard, Death Guard, Wordbearers (and very soon Ultramarines) have their own books.

 

I think the screentime is fair and I don't see the wolves as being "bigged up" their role within the crusade and their culture is being fleshed out properly is all.

 

As one of the people guilty of complaining, I suppose I'd better explain. It isn't to do with screentime, it's to do with the Space Wolves encroaching on other Legions "territories". In my case, it's the Space Wolves whole "yeah, we're the worst of the worst, and the Emperor would wipe us out if we weren't so vital, and we do the things no other Legion would do, and we're the masters of terror tactics, and everybody else is scared of us!" thing.

Before, that was basically what the Night Lords were. They were the Terror Legion, who everybody else was terrified of, and were used as a sanction against rebel systems. Now, the Space Wolves come along, and in this new novel, they're doing all of what the Night Lords did, only they're apparently better at it, because they apparently do the stuff even the Night Lords think is too horrible.

 

In other words, imagine that a book was written about the Imperial Fists, but in this book, they're champions of the Imperial Creed, are known as the Legion most responsible for its spread, the Emperor still gives them free reign to do it, and the Word Bearers are never once mentioned. Thats how some of us feel.

 

However, in the case of the Space Wolves, this is compounded by the "Executioners" thing, which some have chosen to interpret as meaning that the Space Wolves are just downright better than the other Legions. After all, if they're the Executioners, they can therefore beat the other Legions, and are therefore better, right? The Space Wolves could have been developed in far better ways than "Nyah! They're better than you! They were created to beat your Legion into the dust!"

[eyeslikethunder]

As to the Space wolves being the exercutioners.

 

It does seem that Russ believes it. And seems to set about studing each legion for strength and weakness in case if its neccesary even sending spies to study them.

 

The space wolves also consider it this their role.

There are suggestions they destroyed the 2 missing legions in 2 of the books.

Magnus seems to know that it is the wolves who are sent after errant legions.

I think abnett is quoted as as saying he was going to make this the wolves role.

 

Now whether this was the role the emperor invented them for only really a quote from the emperor would answer.

 

It could that it simply that fulfilled the role well the first time well so the emperor just kept turning to them each time

 

Or they were the Closest Legion each time.

 

 

Also there are examples like with the Ultramarines and Wordbearers or Istvann where the emperor sends some else -although this was a less direct conflict it could have turned nasty

 

I am not the greastest fan of some the HH SW fluff not sure how this totally loyal obidient dog fluff fit with the current space wolves never do what we tell them to do fluff

[Lord_Caerolion]

There's also Aurelian, which features the Space Wolves and Night Lords sent against the Word Bearers in a possible timeline. This boosts A D-Bs suggestion (strangely enough) that while the Space Wolves consider themselves the Executioners, the Night Lords and World Eaters do too.

[Kassill]

I don't want to get dragged into any "Primarch over yours" deals, but it is clearly stated that the Wolves were indeed the Executioners.

 

That is pretty clear and straightforward IMO.

 

No, it's clearly stated that one particular Long Fang believes that, nothing more. It is not an objective view, it's also not a view from anyone with any particular rank within the Legion. Do the Space Wolves believe that theory? Probably. Does it make the theory objectively true, that the Emperor created them for that specific purpose? No. No it doesn't.

You want to prove to me that the Wolves definitively had that role, show me a quote from Malcador, the Emperor, or numerous other Primarchs, not a single Legionnaire. As it stands, we've got an incredibly biased view.

And please, somebody put my mind to rest. What deeds, what possible deeds, are there that the Night Lords or World Eaters wouldn't do to defeat a foe, but the Space Wolves would?

 

To be fair, Aurelian does have the Space Wolves as one of the Legions (yes, they had others, specifically the Night Lords, fighting alongside them) to take down the Word Bearers in one other possible timeline.

 

 

Actually, Longfang is his name, and he is a Rune Priest, so yes he does have some rank. And the way he tells Hawser about how the Wolves operate indicates that he too is aware of the Wolves purpose, whether or not that's what the Emperor put down on paper.

[hendrik]

we should not forget that without the help of the sisters of silence our razing of prospero would never have been so efficient... but dan abnett made it pretty clear the space wolves were there to take down another legion (his own words)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viFLhyJXqNQ

offcourse this doesn't mean they would do it on their own!

[A D-B]

There's also Aurelian, which features the Space Wolves and Night Lords sent against the Word Bearers in a possible timeline. This boosts A D-Bs suggestion (strangely enough) that while the Space Wolves consider themselves the Executioners, the Night Lords and World Eaters do too.

 

Sorrrrt of. I'm not saying the Night Lords and World Eaters think they're Executioners, exactly. I'm saying the Space Wolves can say it all they like, but it doesn't make it true. What would happen if the Night Lords and World Eaters had been asked first, but refused or couldn't be trusted? That's my point, in that the Wolves have started to tread on the toes of what several other Legions were already renowned for or were more likely to do - so it makes no sense to just assume the Wolves' side of the story is the only one. I mean, we have 20 years of canon citing the World Eaters' unending ferocity. Why ignore all of that because a few Wolves say "Yeah, actually, we're the most ferocious. End of story."

 

Admittedly, a lot of Wolf fans have (in their quest to say "I like X so X is the best") decided it does mean the Wolves are superior to other Space Marines, but there's a difference between subjective opinions, unreliable narration as a common tool in fiction, and objective fact.

 

Also, as a huge fan of Dan's trailer ("Why would something so ferocious be allowed to exist? To take down another Legion...") you've got to bear, well, marketing in mind.

[King Willy]

I actually think it s the loyalty of the wolves that would have them chosen over world eaters and night lords.

Of the three angry legions, the Wolves are the only ones to stay loyal to the emperor, my theory is that was why canine DNA was added to Russ, he d be vicious as a staffy, a hunter like a wolf and loyal as a retriever.

 

Night Lords a scary, but marines know no fear so what good is that and world eaters a hyper violent and that still just makes people scared returning to the uninformativeity of being scared that marines do so love to remind people about.

[A D-B]

I actually think it s the loyalty of the wolves that would have them chosen over world eaters and night lords.

 

I've said the same thing (I slapped up a couple of Night Lord and World Eater quotes to that effect a while back; no idea where they are, though) and it's certainly the most likely reason they'd ever be chosen for such a role. If, indeed, they ever were.

[King Willy]

It all fits really, Russ and his legion a more likely to follow the Emperors orders even if it goes against their programing so they wouldn't think twice of tearing into a legion. But unlike World Eaters he d be able to reign them in once the :lol: is done and he won't have half a planet ripped to shreds.

 

Plus wolfs seem less messy then WE and NL, who both like there blood and by the sounds of things even pre-heresy liked to collect skulls or people shaped trophies.

[Legatus]

I can think of a number of Primarchs who, being ordered by the Emperor to skin a baby alive, would act without hesitation. Aside from Angron and Konrad Curze there are others who, while not known for their ferocity, are described as pretty ruthless. Mortarion comes to mind, perhaps Ferrus Manus (though the Primarch might not have been as ruthless as his Chaper is today). As for fighting other Marines, the Alpha Legion, in fluff now lost, were originally said to have sought competition against other Legions. And in some instances, especially against the Imperial Fists (3rd Ed. C:CSM, p. 32), it was said to have come to open conflict. (Though that might have ben duels between individual members.)

[Jimmy Carmine]

I actually think it s the loyalty of the wolves that would have them chosen over world eaters and night lords.

 

I've said the same thing (I slapped up a couple of Night Lord and World Eater quotes to that effect a while back; no idea where they are, though) and it's certainly the most likely reason they'd ever be chosen for such a role. If, indeed, they ever were.

 

Here's a link to those quotes.

 

"Because we cannot be trusted. The Emperor needs a weapon that will never obey its own desires before the good of others. Most of all, he needs a weapon that will never bite the hand that feeds. We are not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor needs. The Wolves obey, when we might not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we couldn't. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.

 

The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does."

 

-- Eighth Captain Khârn, when asked why the World Eaters aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

 

 

 

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it?

 

The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."

 

-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

[calgar101]

The questionable loyalty of the Night Lords and World eaters isn't due to their genetics it is due to how the Emperor treated their Primarch. If the Emperor had fought alongside Angron on Da'esha well Angron's loyalty to the Emperor would pretty much have been solidified for ever.

[King Willy]

But the loyalty of the wolves appears to be built into there genetics. It's implied that Marines killing Marines is incredibly hard for them to do, part of the whole indoctrination and psychological reinforcement, but deep at the core of the Wolves this is less prevalent a instead they are significantly more disciplined then other chapters. though this doesn't seem to have any outward effects it does mean that if the emperor told them to kill another marine they would gladly do it.

Other chapters would find this hard without the whole traitor reasoning.

 

The Night Lords and World Eaters would likely be used to shock Human and Xenos, people whose minds aren't so reinforced like a marines. Night Lords would be useful for stabilizing particularly heretical sector by attacking the most vocal groups, World Eaters would be good for smashing apart a planets defence force and slaughtering whole planets that couldn't be brought back into the fold.

 

Both tactics are just to messy for dealing with an Astartes Legion gone awry.

It is likely the emperor planned for the astartes to handle there own internal crimes and punishment, doing so to not only protect Humans but also to keep up appearances. The wolves would be happy to do the emperors bidding without the worry of such conspicuous displays as what the other two angry legions would do, plus it would probably be seen as more respected as the Wolves would fight Astartes to Astartes, the enemy is killed fighting an equal fight which all astartes aspire to do.

World Eaters Destroy, Night Lords Torture, Space Wolves Fight.

[eyeslikethunder]

I mean, we have 20 years of canon citing the World Eaters' unending ferocity. Why ignore all of that because a few Wolves say "Yeah, actually, we're the most ferocious. End of story."

 

The interesting thing about a lot Space wolf fluff is that it suggests that the wolves deliberately try to sell that image of them as mindless psycho's with the help of the wulfen and blood claws when in fact that the majority of them the grey hunters are actually

patient, reliable and cunning

.

 

This is done to make opponents underestimate them.

Many a foe has underestimated the space wolves, expecting full frontal assault when all the while their escape route and supply lines are being cut

This has been a theme in Space wolf codexes for while.

 

So there is wisdom in not taking at wolf at his word

[hendrik]

"Because we cannot be trusted. The Emperor needs a weapon that will never obey its own desires before the good of others. Most of all, he needs a weapon that will never bite the hand that feeds. We are not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor needs. The Wolves obey, when we might not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we couldn't. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.

 

The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does."

 

-- Eighth Captain Khârn, when asked why the World Eaters aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

 

 

 

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it?

 

The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."

 

-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

i really think this is the best description i've ever read about the space wolves, even though it is clear neither of them are fond of the space wolves!

what book is this from?

[Conn Eremon]

To be honest, I really don't see an issue with the Space Wolf portrayal, because I don't see how it detracts from any other Legion. Just because the Space Wolves might have been intended as the executioners of wayward Legions doesn't mean that they are better than any Legion, or that any other Legion is lessened for not having that role. "My dad can beat up your dad" does not mean "I have a better dad."

 

And you have to remember that every Horus Heresy out there has attempted to make their poster Legion as awesome as they can. In most cases, they've succeeded, generally exceedingly. Every book out there has them pumping their Legion up and above the rest, including A D-B and the Word Bearers. It's only for the duration of the novels involved, and each book after that makes the same attempt for a different Legion. Maybe it's just because Deliverance Lost seems to have failed doing this for the Raven Guard and the Alpha Legion in comparison to Prospero Burns, but why should Prospero Burns be singled out? We've had Angron fully understand, study, and even question Perturabo's siege tactics while in full rage-mode and fresh from getting yanked from Desh'ea, just from hearing a description of it, but somehow Abnett took the Space Wolves too far? It doesn't follow, or make any sense to me. The Space Wolves were hyped up in their own book. That's the point of the Legions having their own book, or at least the going standard if not intention. It's kind of ridiculous to complain that the Space Wolves were hyped up over the Night Lords or World Eaters when neither of them have even had their own novels to get hyped up over, though the World Eaters have certainly gotten pumped up already from the short stories.

[Kol Saresk]

That doesn't necessarily say that the Wolves were programmed to kill other Legions. Were they chosen? According to the quotes, yes. But they were chosen because they were the only Legion who did have a problem killing their brothers that was a leash. The Night Lords would have made them suffer while the World Eaters would have had way too much collateral damage. The Wolves were so obedient to the Emperor that they would have done anything he told them to with no questions asked. Not because they were made to be executioners or Fenris had bred them into warriors of such ferocity that they would do anything. It was because they were blindly obedient. They are so obedient that if Horus had been smart, he would have falsified a message from the Emperor telling them to attack one of the loyal Legions and he would have been good.

[eyeslikethunder]

I wonder why they are no longer obedient at all

 

why do they not follow the codex

or do as the high lords tell them

[Conn Eremon]

That doesn't necessarily say that the Wolves were programmed to kill other Legions. Were they chosen? According to the quotes, yes. But they were chosen because they were the only Legion who did have a problem killing their brothers that was a leash. The Night Lords would have made them suffer while the World Eaters would have had way too much collateral damage. The Wolves were so obedient to the Emperor that they would have done anything he told them to with no questions asked. Not because they were made to be executioners or Fenris had bred them into warriors of such ferocity that they would do anything. It was because they were blindly obedient. They are so obedient that if Horus had been smart, he would have falsified a message from the Emperor telling them to attack one of the loyal Legions and he would have been good.

 

Didn't he, though? Far as I know, the Thousand Sons didn't go traitor until their defeat at the hands of the Wolves.

 

Another thing, though, is that the Wolves of Fenris are not leashed dogs. A dog would have accepted the codex, and a dog would have never become the defiant Wolves of the 40k. No, they are still wolves, just a tad like White Fang. Loyal and protective of one human, but still a vicious animal. And that would be why, once that one human was gone, they would simply revert back to their untamed selves.

 

And to be honest, who knows abut the programming? From the Prospero Burns quotes, we have Space Wolves seeing themselves as these executioners. In Deliverance Lost, we see that the Emperor purposefully crafted Leman Russ to be as he is, minus the Viking culture. The Emperor created a wolf that only he could tame. For what purpose he might have intended that wolf for, we're not quite sure yet. But it may very well be what the Space Wolves believe it to be. Maybe he looked at the genetic make-up of some of the other Primarchs, and foresaw weakness, susceptibility to Chaos, and crafted Russ as a counter. Or maybe he had something in mind that I can't fathom, who knows? What I do know is that, if that's true, it doesn't mean that the Primarchs, and their Legions, that Russ might have been crafted to counter, are lessened for it.