My legion is better than yours

[Billuriye]

I wonder why they are no longer obedient at all

 

why do they not follow the codex

or do as the high lords tell them

 

They only obey All-father. High lords and codex are not the part of the deal.

[A D-B]

And you have to remember that every Horus Heresy out there has attempted to make their poster Legion as awesome as they can. In most cases, they've succeeded, generally exceedingly. Every book out there has them pumping their Legion up and above the rest, including A D-B and the Word Bearers. It's only for the duration of the novels involved, and each book after that makes the same attempt for a different Legion. Maybe it's just because Deliverance Lost seems to have failed doing this for the Raven Guard and the Alpha Legion in comparison to Prospero Burns, but why should Prospero Burns be singled out?

 

For really reals? Because, personally, I kinda abhor portraying one faction as "better" by doing so at the cost of denigrating others. Highlight what's cool or unique, yes, but never at the cost of making the other faction look stupid. One side will usually have to "win", sure, but even then - no need to make the losers look like fools or as if they were totally outclassed. Sometimes, fans will imagine it that way anyway (especially if their 40K perceptions don't allow them to perceive a favoured faction losing in that way, or they miss some of the text and assume X, Y or Z) but that's part of the nature of fandom. People think different things, and people get a lot of stuff wrong.

 

But The First Heretic is usually reviewed and cited as avoiding that pitfall, and it was most definitely the intention to do so. I was pretty careful never to present them as better than anyone else, which has cost them in a way: they almost seem weak compared to the bombastic awesomer-than-thou portrayals of other Legions, as they never claim to be the best at anything.

 

Ultimately, TFH paints a Legion at its lowest ebb, at the nadir of their lives in the Great Crusade, so they'd hardly be on their best form. That will come later, post-Isstvan. But even so, TFH was specifically written to avoid exalting the characters at the cost of humiliating others. Look at the portrayal of Lorgar, for example, who loses to Corax and is looked down upon by his brothers. Look at Argel Tal, who consistently loses to a Custodian in cage fights. Look at Isstvan V, where the Word Bearer battle scenes are largely describing their primarch getting his teeth kicked in, or the Word Bearers themselves getting butchered by the dozen.

 

So, well, I see a pretty big difference in "Making a faction look cool, unique and interesting" and "Making a faction look better than the others". Some authors go with the former, others with the latter. There's no One True Way, I guess. I just know what I prefer.

[Kol Saresk]

That doesn't necessarily say that the Wolves were programmed to kill other Legions. Were they chosen? According to the quotes, yes. But they were chosen because they were the only Legion who did have a problem killing their brothers that was a leash. The Night Lords would have made them suffer while the World Eaters would have had way too much collateral damage. The Wolves were so obedient to the Emperor that they would have done anything he told them to with no questions asked. Not because they were made to be executioners or Fenris had bred them into warriors of such ferocity that they would do anything. It was because they were blindly obedient. They are so obedient that if Horus had been smart, he would have falsified a message from the Emperor telling them to attack one of the loyal Legions and he would have been good.

 

Didn't he, though? Far as I know, the Thousand Sons didn't go traitor until their defeat at the hands of the Wolves.

 

So woul you define traitor as someone who turned to Chaos? You have to remember that the Thousand Sons broke Imperial Law(Edict of Nikea) and that Magnus himself almost destroyed the Golden Throne. They were traitors long before the Qolves came for them. Magnus only turned to Chaos to save his Legion.

 

A-D-B, I am actually a very big fan of the way you wrote TFH. I admit that it was a little hard to get into because it seemed to have a slower pace than most of the other books, but I was glad I trudged through it.

[Conn Eremon]

So, well, I see a pretty big difference in "Making a faction look cool, unique and interesting" and "Making a faction look better than the others". Some authors go with the former, others with the latter. There's no One True Way, I guess. I just know what I prefer.

 

I certainly prefer the former, and the better books in my opinion are the former. I didn't mean to say you did the latter, or otherwise insult your work, as I am a big fan of your books.

 

What I meant by hyping the Legions up wasn't that they're getting portrayed as better than other Legions. I did write "up and above the rest," but I didn't give it much clarity, and for that I apologize. Just that there seems to be a trend throughout the Horus Heresy that the longer it gets, the more powerful the Legions tend to get. Even though the Word Bearers were at their low point, they still seemed better off than the Luna Wolves in the first books. Even though it was written with the distinct intention to be less bombastic than the other Legions, and I agree that it was successful, it was still a tad bit more than the first ones to come out. I don't think that was an intentional attempt to place them above another Legion, or even that the portrayal indicated that at all, no more so than the Space Wolves over the World Eaters or Night Lords. And I also understand that it is in part because of the certain canon conflicts that took a while to be fully grasped, like Legion size. It's not something that is going on in-universe, but something out of universe, as a natural part of a lengthy, growing series written by a group of writers. I'm not saying it's an issue, I'm actually trying to say there is no issue. Though I'm not a fan of the anime, my mind keeps dragging me back to the power levels of Dragonball Z, or at least what I know of it. Granted, it's far, far, far less notable in the Horus Heresy, but I can still see the slow ramping as the series builds and moves on. I don't think it'll ever come to the same conclusion as DBZ, or even remotely close to it. But because they're not the same characters episode after episode, but a different Legion book after book, and people are bound to compare them, it's noticeable. I just think people should not react to it as if it's an attempt to portray one or more factions as being over other factions, but just as something that's kind of bound to happen. When I'm reading the series, keeping this in mind, none of the Legions seem more or less to me.

[Temper]

I wonder why they are no longer obedient at all

 

why do they not follow the codex

or do as the high lords tell them

 

They only obey All-father. High lords and codex are not the part of the deal.

 

Same thing with the Salamanders, they don't follow the codex or take orders from anyone. Tu'shan sums it up nicely: "My sword is at the Emperor's command. I answer to no other man, living or dead."

[Conn Eremon]

So woul you define traitor as someone who turned to Chaos? You have to remember that the Thousand Sons broke Imperial Law(Edict of Nikea) and that Magnus himself almost destroyed the Golden Throne. They were traitors long before the Qolves came for them. Magnus only turned to Chaos to save his Legion.

 

Only someone who has turned to chaos is a traitor? No, that's not what I meant. Only a traitor turns to Chaos, sure, but not that Chaos traitors are the only traitors.

 

But I wouldn't consider the other things as defining them a traitor at all. Breaking a law makes one a criminal, not a traitor, and his actions against the Golden Throne was not as a traitor seeking to damage it, but as a loyalist seeking to warn of impeding danger. Which is something the Emperor noticed, though he was far too pissed off to be soothed by it. Magnus only turned traitor when he decided that he'd rather live than die, and the only avenue open to him was that of a traitor.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

So woul you define traitor as someone who turned to Chaos? You have to remember that the Thousand Sons broke Imperial Law(Edict of Nikea) and that Magnus himself almost destroyed the Golden Throne. They were traitors long before the Qolves came for them. Magnus only turned to Chaos to save his Legion.

 

Only someone who has turned to chaos is a traitor? No, that's not what I meant. Only a traitor turns to Chaos, sure, but not that Chaos traitors are the only traitors.

 

But I wouldn't consider the other things as defining them a traitor at all. Breaking a law makes one a criminal, not a traitor, and his actions against the Golden Throne was not as a traitor seeking to damage it, but as a loyalist seeking to warn of impeding danger. Which is something the Emperor noticed, though he was far too pissed off to be soothed by it. Magnus only turned traitor when he decided that he'd rather live than die, and the only avenue open to him was that of a traitor.

 

Treason requires intent.

 

Magnus was never a traitor till he lost his homeworld. Everything he did, he did for the Imperium, he had the greatest of intentions and that led to his downfall. He is a tragic character, trapped by his own hubris.

[calgar101]

I think this quote would sum up Magnus's actions well, "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions".

[Marshal Rohr]

The best stories are the ones where the main character IS weak, and eventually becomes strong. Thats what TFH did nicely. A D-B is the only BL author who will have his legion he's writing about hit some serious character building turbulence on their way to greatness. Fulgrim could've been like that but McNeill decided to take it into the realm of 'Chaos is creepy'.

[Kol Saresk]

So woul you define traitor as someone who turned to Chaos? You have to remember that the Thousand Sons broke Imperial Law(Edict of Nikea) and that Magnus himself almost destroyed the Golden Throne. They were traitors long before the Qolves came for them. Magnus only turned to Chaos to save his Legion.

 

Only someone who has turned to chaos is a traitor? No, that's not what I meant. Only a traitor turns to Chaos, sure, but not that Chaos traitors are the only traitors.

 

But I wouldn't consider the other things as defining them a traitor at all. Breaking a law makes one a criminal, not a traitor, and his actions against the Golden Throne was not as a traitor seeking to damage it, but as a loyalist seeking to warn of impeding danger. Which is something the Emperor noticed, though he was far too pissed off to be soothed by it. Magnus only turned traitor when he decided that he'd rather live than die, and the only avenue open to him was that of a traitor.

Okay. Well maybe it would have been better to say that while not Traitors, Magnus and the Thousand Sons were still in defiance of the Imperial Law, much in the way the Astral Claws were when they refused the gene-seed tithes and went on an uber-recruitment drive. But considering the actions that are taken to punish transgressions to the Imperial Law(unfortunately we don't see many examples in the HH series) Magnus should have known that defying his father was at least on par with treason as the other two missing Primarchs are hinted about.

[Pulse]

"Because we cannot be trusted. The Emperor needs a weapon that will never obey its own desires before the good of others. Most of all, he needs a weapon that will never bite the hand that feeds. We are not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor needs. The Wolves obey, when we might not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we couldn't. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.

 

The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does."

 

-- Eighth Captain Khârn, when asked why the World Eaters aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

 

 

 

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it?

 

The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."

 

-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

 

Now those quotes are pure awesome, especially Khârn.

[Olis]

Now those quotes are pure awesome, especially Khârn.

 

Seconded. :tu:

[Iron Lord]

It's kind of ironic for him to call the Wolves more like dogs, when you remember that Khârn's legion used to be called the War Hounds.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

The best stories are the ones where the main character IS weak, and eventually becomes strong. Thats what TFH did nicely. A D-B is the only BL author who will have his legion he's writing about hit some serious character building turbulence on their way to greatness. Fulgrim could've been like that but McNeill decided to take it into the realm of 'Chaos is creepy'.

 

I like how McNeil portrayed Fulgrim and Chaos.

 

It seems each of the Primarchs have their own encounter with chaos and fall each in their own way, which highlights the mutability of chaos itself. Fulgrim was an excellent portrayal of Slaanesh and I'm so glad he never went near the schoolboy BDSM fantasies you see so often in relation to Slaanesh.

 

While A D-B is a great author, one of the best I've read in a long time, it's unfair to say he's the only one who'll have his characters run into trouble. Fulgrim had allot of weakness and the book portrayed how he tried (yet ultimately failed) to recognise and overcome his shortcomings. The DA books reveal allot about the Lion and his failings and his inability to show emotion.

 

While it's ok to be an A D-B fan, it's abit unfair to put him on a pedestal and ignore the other authors and their individual talents.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

But the loyalty of the wolves appears to be built into there genetics. It's implied that Marines killing Marines is incredibly hard for them to do, part of the whole indoctrination and psychological reinforcement, but deep at the core of the Wolves this is less prevalent a instead they are significantly more disciplined then other chapters. though this doesn't seem to have any outward effects it does mean that if the emperor told them to kill another marine they would gladly do it.

Other chapters would find this hard without the whole traitor reasoning.

 

The Night Lords and World Eaters would likely be used to shock Human and Xenos, people whose minds aren't so reinforced like a marines. Night Lords would be useful for stabilizing particularly heretical sector by attacking the most vocal groups, World Eaters would be good for smashing apart a planets defence force and slaughtering whole planets that couldn't be brought back into the fold.

 

Both tactics are just to messy for dealing with an Astartes Legion gone awry.

It is likely the emperor planned for the astartes to handle there own internal crimes and punishment, doing so to not only protect Humans but also to keep up appearances. The wolves would be happy to do the emperors bidding without the worry of such conspicuous displays as what the other two angry legions would do, plus it would probably be seen as more respected as the Wolves would fight Astartes to Astartes, the enemy is killed fighting an equal fight which all astartes aspire to do.

World Eaters Destroy, Night Lords Torture, Space Wolves Fight.

 

At the end of the day, a wolf is basicly a wolf.

 

Like their animal namesake the sons of Russ are all about the alpha, they may grumble, may question but they will follow their alpha. A claw or hunter will follow their pack leader, he will follow his wolf lord, he will follow his Primarch and Russ will follow the Emperor.

 

Other legions where better fighters, better organised, had more ferocity, where more ruthless, more inteligent or more subtle. However the only Astartes more loyal than the Wolves where the Custodes. This is the strength of the wolves, their sense of loyalty to each other and to their superiors, they can be granted more individual leeway because their loyalty would never be questioned.

 

Probably why so few have turned in the 10 millenia since the heresy, however (despite Wolf-fan's wishfull thinking) it is possible.

[Kol Saresk]

That is very true. We only have what? Seven confirmed? I think it's one Wolf Brother in Dead Sky, Black Sun and the six from that strike cruiser, Wolf of Fenris I think it was called. Of course you got the Dark Wolves floating around but I think they might end up like the Fire Dragons in that only one is actually a Space Wolf and the rest are renegades.

[Oiad]

Other legions where better fighters, better organised, had more ferocity, where more ruthless, more inteligent or more subtle. However the only Astartes more loyal than the Wolves where the Custodes. This is the strength of the wolves, their sense of loyalty to each other and to their superiors, they can be granted more individual leeway because their loyalty would never be questioned.

Ah well, the Custodes aren't technically Astartes and I guess others will call it differently.

[Marshal Rohr]

Actually, the Deathwatch rulebook specifically states the Imperial Fists were the most loyal.

[Oiad]

Slip up. *repeats mantra - remember, this the a HH forum*

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Slip up. *repeats mantra - remember, this the a HH forum*

 

 

Your original premise was correct though; the Custodes are a different kettle of fish.

 

It might look like a fish, it might even smell like a fish but it's not really a fish except in the broadest genetic sense.

 

 

And yes, I know I took the fish thing too far!

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Actually, the Deathwatch rulebook specifically states the Imperial Fists were the most loyal.

 

That point is subject to debate.

[Marshal Rohr]

Hardly when it specifically says he was the most loyal.

[2000AD]

" We were murderers first, last, and always."

 

Classic

[2000AD]

The questionable loyalty of the Night Lords and World eaters isn't due to their genetics it is due to how the Emperor treated their Primarch. If the Emperor had fought alongside Angron on Da'esha well Angron's loyalty to the Emperor would pretty much have been solidified for ever.

 

Interesting isnt it..... that one act would have probably prevented the HH taking place..

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Hardly when it specifically says he was the most loyal.

 

One reference, from one sourcebook that is a side-project. I'm not sure how much Deathwatch is even considered canon.....

 

The questionable loyalty of the Night Lords and World eaters isn't due to their genetics it is due to how the Emperor treated their Primarch. If the Emperor had fought alongside Angron on Da'esha well Angron's loyalty to the Emperor would pretty much have been solidified for ever.

 

Interesting isnt it..... that one act would have probably prevented the HH taking place..

 

nah, I doubt it would of changed much. Horus wouldn't of brought Angron in and most likely would of sidelined him the way he did some of the other loyalists. The only way to prevent the heresy would of been to get to Lorgar.