My legion is better than yours

[Marshal Rohr]

YOU can choose to ignore one of the few outside objective views expressed of Primarch loyalty in the entirety of all published materials, but that is your choice. Almost all other sources are from characters.

 

Space Wolves being clinically insane? Torgaddon.

Space Wolves being executioners? Some random Space Wolf.

etc.

 

These omniscient narrations are the backbone of how most players identify with their chapters.

 

Blood Angels are the most noble.

Dark Angels are secretive, yet ingenious strategists and tacticians, famed for their fearlessness.

Ultramarines are exemplars of 'Codex' Honor.

Space Wolves are peerless warrior leaders who carve their legend in the entrails of their enemies.

Black Templars are fearless and zealous warriors who epitomizes the ideals of 'Imperial Knighthood'.

Iron Hands are ruthless and calculating warriors who suffer no weakness and bring methodical vengeance of heretics and xenos.

Imperial Fists are staunch and disciplined guardians of the Imperium who never give up.

Salamanders are bold warriors who strive to protect the Imperium and its people.

Raven Guard are masters of warfare and incredibly talented planners and guerilla fighters who take no shortcuts and are utterly vicious on the attack.

White Scars are fierce warriors who are masters of lightning warfare and raiding, who when pushed to the limit can unleash savagery so terrible their enemies flee at the mention of them.

Carcharodons are silent hunters who strike quickly and savagely leaving nothing in their wake.

Minotaurs are merciless plunderers who seek to test themselves against any enemy and emerge victorious.

Fire Angels are noble exemplars of what space marines should be, diplomatic and always willing to lend aid if possible.

Flesh Tearers are proud but savage warriors who fight a constant struggle with themselves to remain in control.

Silver Skulls are superstitious and honorable warriors who fight according to prophecy and omen.

Grey Knights are (were) incorruptible Justicars who seek out the foulest threat to humanity so that other never know the true danger facing them.

Crimson Fists are stubborn and intractable warriors who believe that honor is not sacrificed by holding on and rebuilding in the face of overwhelming opposition.

 

And the list goes on and on and on. Just because you say Deathwatch is crap and the Space Wolves are the most loyal is one way to look at it, but at the end of the day GW wasnt trying to make the Space Wolves into the most loyal chapter. To deny that loyalty has been and is one of the Imperial Fists overriding themes is a shot at the people like me who like them for that.

 

Dorn was close with Horus, and considered Horus to be his closest brother, even if the feeling wasnt mutual. He could've easily been swayed to follow him, yet he didnt. As he spent the 7 years of the heresy sequestered on Terra watching everyone else fight and die at his command he could have given up, yet he didnt. As he watched his legion get eviscerated for 55 days on Terra he could've ran away, but he didnt. When the Imperium was torn apart he could've caused a second civil war for the right to retain his legion but he didnt. When all the Primarchs had died and he was the last one standing he could have embraced power and been worshiped like a God, but he didnt. Loyalty was his chief attribute and defining quality.

 

I respectfully disagree that he wasn't the most loyal, because he proved himself loyal time after time, even when it was hard. He never compromised like his brothers did, and he never accepted shades of grey. It takes a special kind of person to be like that.

[Legatus]

Well, a different Chapter has also been described as "unmatched in loyalty". <_<

 

But I'd say there is very little distinction to be made between "utterly" and "also utterly".

[Marshal Rohr]

One day I am going to challenge you to an arm wrestling match. And the victor is never allowed to point out that damn quote ever again.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Well, a different Chapter has also been described as "unmatched in loyalty". :P

 

But I'd say there is very little distinction to be made between "utterly" and "also utterly".

 

This quote?:

 

".... are the greatest of all SM Chapters. From the dawn of the Imperium they have served the Emperor with a loyalty and ferocity that no others can match.... and in the faith and valour they are unmatched."

 

Templars are greater, numerically. And in terms of power.

Grey Knights are also greater in power.

The 1.5 'fighting' Space Wolves would also be greater than the 1K of 'fighting' UM.

 

So that one looks a bit off. In neither numbers nor power are the UM the greatest.

 

Ferocity - World Eaters and Night Lords both lol at that, if talking about the GC as well. I think Iron Warriors have been described in multiple sources as being as ferocious as WE at crunch time. But if not talking about GC era then:

 

Blood Angels, White Scars and Space Wolves are all more ferocious. You might be able to put down Templars too, depending on where zeal blurs into fury, Idk.

 

So that one looks a bit off too.

 

Loyalty? Grey Knights -> "not one has turned."

Wolves also seem to have a super low turn rate.

 

Considering that the IF were attacked by Imperial forces and after DEFENDING Terra, I can't see that 2nd ed. quote really holding much water nowadays.

 

I'm not anti-Ultra, and I am very much looking forwards to Abnett's UM book - the excerpts look choice. But that quote from C:UM doesn't work on many levels. :) Sorry :) :)

It just comes across as poetry, rather than something that is fluff-factually verifiable, as shown by my off the cuff reasonings. Hyperbole. Buy these dudes because they are cool. They have to say that because they continually gave the UM rules that don't reflect their acumen and potency. They even did that in C:SM 5th ed. Despite Ward waxing lyrical about the UM, they certainly gave the "powa! level over 9000" to the Salamanders, by comparison.

 

GW just doesn't seem to get their flagship Chapter. :tu:

[Legatus]

I wanted to go into how I would take "greatest" as meaning in terms of accomplishments and "ferofcity" as refering more to dedication than to sheer wild and grim battle manner, but perhaps it would make more sense if I pointed out that the Ultramarines' loyalty is also mentioned in the Index Astartes Thousand Sons, where Magnus gains insight into the unfolding events of the Heresy prior to contacting the Emperor:

 

"Seeing into the depths of the Warp from his sanctum upon Prospero, Magnus beheld a vision of Horus' pledge of fealty to Chaos upon the fields of the feral world of Davin. Horus' treachery was revealed, every detail made known with total clarity. Magnus saw the too-human foibles of Fulgrim of the Emperor's Children and Angron of the World Eaters played upon masterfully by Horus, and greater forces veiled by the Warp. He saw the terrible trap being laid for Ferrus Manus of the Iron Hands, Vulkan of the Salamanders and cautious Corax of the Raven Guard on Istvaan V. He saw the Emperor's mightiest bastion of unalloyed loyalty, Guilliman's Ultramarines, being cleverly decoyed to the far side of the galaxy, where they could play little part in the drama to unfold. Alone in the entire galaxy, more clearly than even Horus himself, Magnus was given to understand the events at hand. He saw it all and understood each consequence and every role, except his own."

(IA:TS, 'The Betrayal')

 

At which point in the Deathwatch books is the Imperial Fists' exemplary loyalty described? I checked the Rites of Battle book, since that has the article about the Imperial Fists, and here their main traits mentioned are duty, honour, truth and sacrifice. The Rulebook was mentioned, but since that has no specific section on the Imperial Fists I will probably not find it by myself.

[Kol Saresk]

:) Wow Legatus, you really know how to bring the hurt.

[Marshal Rohr]

I give up. Legatus wins again.

 

 

Same time next week?

 

 

Its like playing chess against a grand master who can move your pieces too. Its even better when our powers combine to form Captain Fluff.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Captain Fluff.

 

And we now have possibly the least intimidating super-hero name ever.

[Kol Saresk]

Captain Fluff.

 

And we now have possibly the least intimidating super-hero name ever.

If only there was some to show appreciation for such a dramatic description.

[Legatus]

But as I said, you can hardly make out a difference between the utter loyalty of the Ultramarines and the utter loyalty of the Imperial Fists. Or any of the other loyalist Legions for that matter, with the Dark Angels being an unfortunate exception. Both the Imperial Fists and the Ultramarines are often credited with exceptional sense of duty and dedication. Probably because they are more soldiery and formal in their demeanor, and not as ritualistic (be that feral or clerical) or as grim as the other loyalists. What we can say for certain is that the Space Wolves have no particular claim to being the "most loyal Legion". (Neither do they have the claim of being the most brutal and terrifying.)

 

I have allways held the Space Wolve's combat prowess in high regard, and would give them the advantage over most of the other Legions in a pitched battle, but Dan Abnett's statement that the Emperor only allowed such a ruthless Legion to exist so it could be used to take down another Legion was simply unfortunate.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Ok, you guys are playing on words far to much for my liking. Quite simply they are all astartees, some may be more loyal than other, some may be tougher than others, It saddens me to think that Primarchs are always pitted against each other because certain individuals believe their values are reflected by their Primarchs personality. Heres one for all of you. NO ONE REALLY CARES!. If Angron got punched and knocked out by Mortrion everyone would be like OMG Mortarion is the coolest now and his legion are the hardest/noblest/wanabee astartee.....erm...ist that should be placed on a pedastol and admired.

 

If I like a legion for what they are they dont have to be placed 'best of the best' to get my attention. The characters i admire are all formed from real, individual character which is represented by their unique and individual traits. Character is formed by what a legion doesnt have and is represented by what they do to make up for it as well as excel in their own field of expertise. Just becauase Space Wolves were said to be 'legion killers' it doesnt mean that another legion couldnt take them down if they wanted to.

 

My personal favourite of a Primarch is Dorn (as my name would suggest) Now just because the brown smelly stuff hit the fan on Terra and he got beat about by Konrad I couldnt give a frig, simply because he is a noble staunch chatacter, who although may not posses the certain combat prowess of his brothers in one to one is still a strong leader and who we all know if challeneged by another one of his brothers would not back down. His virtures are followed by near enough all of his sons. If they were attacked by Le Man Russ (Hyperthetically of course) and his space wolves and came on the victor's in close combat and ranged warfare, I would still also hold Le Man Russ in high regard as he is a bad @$$ k9 astartee who would learn from his loss and come back even stronger, the same way Dorn would.

 

rant over :(

[Eirik_Xenobane]

I think it comes down to definitions of loyalty.

 

Dorn is utterly loyal to the Emperor, but isn't afraid to speak his mind, isn't afraid to question his Father at times. This was highlighted in Nemesis with Dorn's dislike of assassins.

 

Rus has a different kind of loyalty, a ruthless, unquestioned loyalty which makes him ideal for the dirty work.

 

The thing about the whole "executioners" title, it's nothing to be proud of, it's as much a curse as an honour. On a side note found another reference to the Wolves being used against one (or even both) of the lost legions in Outcast Dead. It does seem that the Wolves where the legion selected for going after other legions, but like I said, it's not a thing to be proud of.

[Gree]

Well, a different Chapter has also been described as "unmatched in loyalty". :)

 

But I'd say there is very little distinction to be made between "utterly" and "also utterly".

 

This quote?:

 

".... are the greatest of all SM Chapters. From the dawn of the Imperium they have served the Emperor with a loyalty and ferocity that no others can match.... and in the faith and valour they are unmatched."

 

 

Considering the Horus Heresy series perhaps these quotes from Rules of Engagement can shed light?

 

The Imperium was lost. Everything he knew told him so, and this betrayal was the one thing that would save the dream at its heart from extinction.

The body of the Imperium was dying, but the ideals of its foundation could live on.

His father would understand that, even if others would not.

Roboute Guilliman wrote two words at the top of the right-hand page: words of treachery, words of salvation. Words to herald a new beginning.

Imperium Secundus.

 

His name was Remus Ventanus of the Ultramarines 4th Company, and he was a traitor.

This sat ill with him, but there was little he could do to change it. The orders came directly from the primarch, and if there was one thing drilled into Ultramarines from the earliest days of their training it was that orders were always obeyed, no matter what.

 

Perhaps the definition of loyalty can be different depending on who is loyal to who. In this case Guilliman seems to be more loyal to the Imperium rather than the Emperor?

 

Who knows? Maybe I’m wrong or taking it out of context. I’ll wait until Know No Fear to clarify. But as of the moment this does not exactly speak of undying loyalty to the Emperor.

[calgar101]

It doesn't Gree no, although they were created by the Emperor their duty was first and foremost to the Imperium.

[Iron Lord]

Perhaps the definition of loyalty can be different depending on who is loyal to who. In this case Guilliman seems to be more loyal to the Imperium rather than the Emperor?

 

Who knows? Maybe I’m wrong or taking it out of context. I’ll wait until Know No Fear to clarify. But as of the moment this does not exactly speak of undying loyalty to the Emperor.

 

In Nemesis Dorn says something very similar to Valdor, along the lines of "your first concern is the Emperor, mine is the Imperium"

 

EDIT: The full quote:

Nemesis page 68-69:

Dorn's expression shifted for a second, with a curling of his lip. "I have crossed paths with agents of the Officio Assassinorum on the battlefield. Those encounters have never ended well. Their focus is always ... too narrow. They are tools best suited to courtly intrigue and the games of empire. Not for war." He folded his arms. "Speak, Custodian. What do you know of this?"

 

Valdor stiffened. "I ... can't say."

 

For a moment, the tension on the primarch's face resonated through the room and Valdor's knuckles whitened around the haft of his spear; then Dorn turned away. "That is unfortunate."

 

The Custodian bristled at the warrior-lord's demeaning tone. "We all want the same thing," he insisted. "To preserve the Emperor."

 

"No," Dorn looked up at the windows, and he allowed himself a sigh. "Your first remit is to safeguard the life of the Emperor of Mankind above all else. Mine, and that of my brothers, is to safeguard the Imperium."

 

"The two are the same," said Valdor. There was a flicker of uncertainty in his words that he did not expect.

 

"Not so," said Dorn. "A narrow view, Custodian." The primarch paused on the threshold and spoke one last time, without looking back. "This conversation is not ended, Valdor."

[hendrik]

this certainly adds another perspective of why the emperor always seems to pick the wolves to take care of another legion, unlike some other primarchs they won't think or doubt and order to see if it is for the good of the imperium, but rather when the emperor orders a thing they obbey withouth question or doubt. this doesn't make them better then any legion but it explains why they are the emperors chosen executioners. they complete and follow any order he gives them, no questions asked.

[Marshal Rohr]

Its also unprecedented. Dorn has always been an Emperor First character. To him the Emperor is the Imperium.

[Legatus]

Its also unprecedented. Dorn has always been an Emperor First character. To him the Emperor is the Imperium.

I think that may seem so because in the past there was little distinction suggested in the background, so Dorn was allways put at the side of the Emperor. But to me, Dorn will allways put his duty first, and if the Emperor asked him to put the Imperium above his personal well being, he would.

[Marshal Rohr]

You mean if the Emperor asked Dorn to put the Imperium over the Emperor's well being, right?

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Dorn was loyal to the Emperor, his farther, as portrayed when he lost the plot when he was injured and entombed in the golden throne. If it came to protecting the imperium itself it would come under the directive of his farther. He may have the best tactical mind of the Primarchs, but his heart is on a one track mission.

[Legatus]

M2C: That's what I meant, yes.

[Arkangilos]

Dorn was close with Horus, and considered Horus to be his closest brother, even if the feeling wasnt mutual. He could've easily been swayed to follow him, yet he didnt. As he spent the 7 years of the heresy sequestered on Terra watching everyone else fight and die at his command he could have given up, yet he didnt. As he watched his legion get eviscerated for 55 days on Terra he could've ran away, but he didnt. When the Imperium was torn apart he could've caused a second civil war for the right to retain his legion but he didnt. When all the Primarchs had died and he was the last one standing he could have embraced power and been worshiped like a God, but he didnt. Loyalty was his chief attribute and defining quality.

I respectfully disagree that he wasn't the most loyal, because he proved himself loyal time after time, even when it was hard. He never compromised like his brothers did, and he never accepted shades of grey. It takes a special kind of person to be like that.

 

I agree that Dorn and Sangunius are the most loyal of the primarchs, I do have to say almost all of the loyalists, and potentially ONE chaos legion, are all pretty close. (Well, if that ONE is still loyal, I would actually argue that they are indeed more loyal than anything could possibly be).

However, I think that the fact that Sanguinius and Horus are discribed as the closer than any other primarch. (with the exception of Ferrus Manus and Fulgrim).

 

+Edit+

 

Didn't the Emperor just want Russ to bring Magnus to Terra? Wasn't it Horus that convinced him to go ballistic on the thousand sons?

[Kol Saresk]

I think that ONE Legion was loyal only to itself and its survival.

[Snider]

Perhaps the definition of loyalty can be different depending on who is loyal to who. In this case Guilliman seems to be more loyal to the Imperium rather than the Emperor?

 

Who knows? Maybe I’m wrong or taking it out of context. I’ll wait until Know No Fear to clarify. But as of the moment this does not exactly speak of undying loyalty to the Emperor.

 

In Nemesis Dorn says something very similar to Valdor, along the lines of "your first concern is the Emperor, mine is the Imperium"

 

EDIT: The full quote:

Nemesis page 68-69:

Dorn's expression shifted for a second, with a curling of his lip. "I have crossed paths with agents of the Officio Assassinorum on the battlefield. Those encounters have never ended well. Their focus is always ... too narrow. They are tools best suited to courtly intrigue and the games of empire. Not for war." He folded his arms. "Speak, Custodian. What do you know of this?"

 

Valdor stiffened. "I ... can't say."

 

For a moment, the tension on the primarch's face resonated through the room and Valdor's knuckles whitened around the haft of his spear; then Dorn turned away. "That is unfortunate."

 

The Custodian bristled at the warrior-lord's demeaning tone. "We all want the same thing," he insisted. "To preserve the Emperor."

 

"No," Dorn looked up at the windows, and he allowed himself a sigh. "Your first remit is to safeguard the life of the Emperor of Mankind above all else. Mine, and that of my brothers, is to safeguard the Imperium."

 

"The two are the same," said Valdor. There was a flicker of uncertainty in his words that he did not expect.

 

"Not so," said Dorn. "A narrow view, Custodian." The primarch paused on the threshold and spoke one last time, without looking back. "This conversation is not ended, Valdor."

 

I have long since had the feeling that Guilliman made the codex astartes so that he could usurp power over the Imperium forcing most chapters to adhere to it rules. Every notice Ultramarines have the most chapters compared to other legions. I'm fairly sure him and the High lords of Terra appreciate the emperor taking a nap. Soon enough the legions will divide again. The Emperor, Imperial Fists, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Salamanders, and Blood Angels against The High Lords, Ultramarines, Raven Guard, Iron hands, White Scars and Inquisition. This is just my assumption of allied forces though but mark my words the legions will turn against each other again.

 

Of course it won't be such a black and white way of being divided I would think Iron hands, Raven guard, and Salamanders are in a bit of a grey area and subsiquent foundings will go their own way as well. I suspect not a single black Templar would be turned away from the Emperor.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Perhaps the definition of loyalty can be different depending on who is loyal to who. In this case Guilliman seems to be more loyal to the Imperium rather than the Emperor?

 

Who knows? Maybe I’m wrong or taking it out of context. I’ll wait until Know No Fear to clarify. But as of the moment this does not exactly speak of undying loyalty to the Emperor.

 

In Nemesis Dorn says something very similar to Valdor, along the lines of "your first concern is the Emperor, mine is the Imperium"

 

EDIT: The full quote:

Nemesis page 68-69:

Dorn's expression shifted for a second, with a curling of his lip. "I have crossed paths with agents of the Officio Assassinorum on the battlefield. Those encounters have never ended well. Their focus is always ... too narrow. They are tools best suited to courtly intrigue and the games of empire. Not for war." He folded his arms. "Speak, Custodian. What do you know of this?"

 

Valdor stiffened. "I ... can't say."

 

For a moment, the tension on the primarch's face resonated through the room and Valdor's knuckles whitened around the haft of his spear; then Dorn turned away. "That is unfortunate."

 

The Custodian bristled at the warrior-lord's demeaning tone. "We all want the same thing," he insisted. "To preserve the Emperor."

 

"No," Dorn looked up at the windows, and he allowed himself a sigh. "Your first remit is to safeguard the life of the Emperor of Mankind above all else. Mine, and that of my brothers, is to safeguard the Imperium."

 

"The two are the same," said Valdor. There was a flicker of uncertainty in his words that he did not expect.

 

"Not so," said Dorn. "A narrow view, Custodian." The primarch paused on the threshold and spoke one last time, without looking back. "This conversation is not ended, Valdor."

 

I have long since had the feeling that Guilliman made the codex astartes so that he could usurp power over the Imperium forcing most chapters to adhere to it rules. Every notice Ultramarines have the most chapters compared to other legions. I'm fairly sure him and the High lords of Terra appreciate the emperor taking a nap. Soon enough the legions will divide again. The Emperor, Imperial Fists, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Salamanders, and Blood Angels against The High Lords, Ultramarines, Raven Guard, Iron hands, White Scars and Inquisition. This is just my assumption of allied forces though but mark my words the legions will turn against each other again.

 

Of course it won't be such a black and white way of being divided I would think Iron hands, Raven guard, and Salamanders are in a bit of a grey area and subsiquent foundings will go their own way as well. I suspect not a single black Templar would be turned away from the Emperor.

 

In a way it was the exact opposite.

 

Guilliman pushed for his Codex to be accepted, for the legions to break up into chapters, so that they would never threaten another heresy. He realised what that much power in one hand could do, the Imperium was falling apart around him because of what Horus did. Guilliman's choice was selfless, not selfish, he was trying to create a system that would protect the Imperium without being a threat to the Imperium.

 

If anyone had ideas along the lines of ruling the Imperiumpost-Emperor it would of been Dorn.