Legatus Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I have long since had the feeling that Guilliman made the codex astartes so that he could usurp power over the Imperium forcing most chapters to adhere to it rules. Every notice Ultramarines have the most chapters compared to other legions. I'm fairly sure him and the High lords of Terra appreciate the emperor taking a nap. Soon enough the legions will divide again. The Emperor, Imperial Fists, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Salamanders, and Blood Angels against The High Lords, Ultramarines, Raven Guard, Iron hands, White Scars and Inquisition. This is just my assumption of allied forces though but mark my words the legions will turn against each other again. So... instead of taking the throne, which he could probably have done after the Heresy, since the Ultramarines were accounting for more than half of the Space marines at that time and since he was in the position of overall commander, Guilliman hands over control over the Imperium to a council of humans, like the Emperor had intended. And he goes from commanding a super-Legion two and a half times the size of any other to commanding a single Chapter for the remaining hundred years of his life. How did that usurping work out for him? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2974625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Willy Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I think what he s getting at is that Girlyman was planning for the long run, when the other legions and their successors could no longer continue to reinforce at the same speed as the smurfs and their kiddies they would take over by backing the High Lords, who would throw anything they want to them and then not notice that all the blue statues popping up at the murder scenes of the entire council. Of course Rowboat is to loyal to do that, he was just the lucky one to have the biggest numerical threat to Horus, who was equal in everything but numbers. Plus he ain't an Alpha. UNLESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HE IS ALPHARIUS OR OMEGEON!!!!!!!!! The entire C:SM was about the Alphas, very clever mr ward, trickesy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2974637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Didn't the Emperor just want Russ to bring Magnus to Terra? Wasn't it Horus that convinced him to go ballistic on the thousand sons? That was the old Fluff Currently it looks like horus stoked long term dislike(prospero burns) between them as outcast dead has the order to get magnus after horus has gone traitor. Also in Prospero burn Russ is seen trying to get Magnus to surrender. Magnus does not get the message unknown to Russ the emperor always seems to pick the wolves to take care of another legion, unlike some other primarchs they won't think or doubt and order to see if it is for the good of the imperium, but rather when the emperor orders a thing they obbey withouth question or doubt. this doesn't make them better then any legion but it explains why they are the emperors chosen executioners. they complete and follow any order he gives them, no questions asked Exactly. There are various types of loyalty. You can just do what you are told and be loyal. You can tell a friend that they are wrong for their own good and be loyal You can do things to save a friend that they would disagree with and be loyal Space Wolves have no particular claim to being the "most loyal Legion". (Neither do they have the claim of being the most brutal and terrifying.) I have allways held the Space Wolve's combat prowess in high regard, and would give them the advantage over most of the other Legions in a pitched battle Totally agree It has been combat prowess that has defined them and natural instinctive cunning throughout there codexes Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2974648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Didn't the Emperor just want Russ to bring Magnus to Terra? Wasn't it Horus that convinced him to go ballistic on the thousand sons? that was the old fluff, prospero burns makes it clear leman russ even used magnus unwilling spy and medium to plea him to surrender to him when he would arrive at prospero. Russ also mentions he knows what the message was that magnus send to the emperor and it's specifically stated that it was about horus turning against the emperor. they also mention it was not the first warning they had about horus going traitor. russ even goes further into it that he wan't hawser nearby for the following reason: "i want him to know it'll never be too late for him to beg for mercy." a bit further in the story it is specifically mentioned the emperor send the sisters of silence and custodes with them to strentghen their cause. another good quote is the following: "the rout of the vlka fenryke did everything that was asked of them, without question or dubiety. They were not in the wrong. They were the perfect warriors, the perfect executioners, precisely as they were engineered and bred to be. They were the Emperor's sanction. This account, my account, absolves them of all blame and celebrates their trueheartedness." it should be noted though that the quote in which horus tells that the 1000th sons and the space wolves were the biggest obstacles for his ambitions is actually the primordial annihilator Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2974653 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Of course Rowboat is to loyal to do that, he was just the lucky one to have the biggest numerical threat to Horus, who was equal in everything but numbers. Plus he ain't an Alpha. UNLESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HE IS ALPHARIUS OR OMEGEON!!!!!!!!! The entire C:SM was about the Alphas, very clever mr ward, trickesy. God, I'm getting some good mileage out of this find - WD #97 : http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l634/dswanick/NewBitmapImage.png Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2974680 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 What, you are going to bring that out every time someone mentions Roboute Guilliman or the Ultramarines now? :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2974701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 God, I'm getting some good mileage out of this find - WD #97 :http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l634/dswanick/NewBitmapImage.png I vote that this brought out every time the Ultramarines are mentioned in non Ultramarine threads :P But not sure of the relevance...... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2974714 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Maybe the appropriate response to that Rogue Trader bit being dragged out again and again would be to contribute further enlightening examples of that era, such as the mighty Space Wolves Fortress Monastery straight from the Rogue Trader Rulebook. Situated on their homeworld "Lucan", and currently commanded by the Leader of the Space Wolves, Imperial Commander Enoch. The relusiam has three private Chapels dedicated to Leman Russ, the Chapter's founder. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2974734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 God, I'm getting some good mileage out of this find - WD #97 :http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l634/dswanick/NewBitmapImage.png I vote that this brought out every time the Ultramarines are mentioned in non Ultramarine threads :D But not sure of the relevance...... I just don't like the term "gene-sperm". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2974913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 You mean if the Emperor asked Dorn to put the Imperium over the Emperor's well being, right? Leaving the Emperor on the throne, a la Inquisitor, might fit. It's not in the Emperor's best interest to stay on the throne if he's on the way to recovery- but some of those Inquisitors think it's in the Imperium's best interest. In Collected Visions Jaghatai disapproves of putting the Emperor on the throne (based on what it did to Malcador) but Dorn insists on following the Emperor's orders, even if it appears detrimental to the Emperor's health. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2974923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decepticon Soundwave Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I would like to weigh in on curze. I think that he wasn't a prophet so much as his tactics especially when you consider index astartes curze won wars in the growing imperium without firing a shot. This is because he had a reputation outside the borders of the imperium during the great crusade. Russ had his rep within the borders of the imperium. He was the emperor's axeman. While Curze was the monster "come to heel rebels & foreigners or I send curze." Now I have a feeling that the 2nd and 11th had themselves a meeting with the cabal and went off the reservation all colonel kurtz style and went native. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2974980 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I would like to weigh in on curze. I think that he wasn't a prophet so much as his tactics especially when you consider index astartes curze won wars in the growing imperium without firing a shot. This is because he had a reputation outside the borders of the imperium during the great crusade. Russ had his rep within the borders of the imperium. He was the emperor's axeman. While Curze was the monster "come to heel rebels & foreigners or I send curze." Now I have a feeling that the 2nd and 11th had themselves a meeting with the cabal and went off the reservation all colonel kurtz style and went native. Its also interesting how these two use reputation Russ builds a reputation as savage to make people underestimate him this is shown in PB and the Space wolves continue this into the 40k. Where Curze uses reputation to avoid fighting Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2975543 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 First, Dan Abnett's Space Wolves ARE NOT the Space Wolves of 40K. I think he did that on purpose. His novel was set when the Legion was still more Fenrisian than anything else. Chris Wraight's Space Wolves are more akin to what the Space Wolves are now. (God Bless that man. One of my favorite BL writers. Him and Anthony Reynolds dont get enough credit). Second, Conrad Kurze never walked away from a fight in his life. That guy was a strait up and down fighter. He would not commit to a war only to hope his reputation would deter the enemy. That is something Imperial Emissaries would do using his name. If Kurze shows up above your world, just put a bullet in your head because the rest wont be pretty. God, the Night Lords are cool. Murderers first, last, and always. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2975604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 First, Dan Abnett's Space Wolves ARE NOT the Space Wolves of 40K. I think he did that on purpose. His novel was set when the Legion was still more Fenrisian than anything else. Chris Wraight's Space Wolves are more akin to what the Space Wolves are now. (God Bless that man. One of my favorite BL writers. Him and Anthony Reynolds dont get enough credit). 40k SW has only Fenrisians. 30k SW got Terran elements. After Russ left Helix was broken and could only support Fenrisians. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2975616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 All this talk of loyalty reminds me of a group of men from the last century who where loyal to death did all that was asked of them and where not afraid to get there hands dirty. These men are reviled and seen as monsters in today's world funny how setting can change your outlook on things like genocide. Schutzstaffel for those who don't get the reference. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2975633 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 All this talk of loyalty reminds me of a group of men from the last century who where loyal to death did all that was asked of them and where not afraid to get there hands dirty. These men are reviled and seen as monsters in today's world funny how setting can change your outlook on things like genocide. Schutzstaffel for those who don't get the reference. The Adeptus Astartes are the SS of the 41st millenium. Perfect soldiers who (for allotof chapters atleast) are not burdened by concepts of humanity and morality. Throughout history we have seen that such forces make the best warriors. The problemis they tend to be inhumane and vicious. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2975653 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 God, the Night Lords are cool. Murderers first, last, and always. They are only cool because of ADB gave them more character, before hand they were pretty pants to be honest, even in the other novels. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2975673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 True. I only like Dan Abnett's Space Wolves for the same reasons. Some BL authors are good about expanding the character of a chapter without actually explaining it. Helsreach is the Templar bible, yet there were 2 other books before it that didnt really stir the soul as well as 'Recover your sword' or 'such weakness' did. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2975744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 All this talk of loyalty reminds me of a group of men from the last century who where loyal to death did all that was asked of them and where not afraid to get there hands dirty. These men are reviled and seen as monsters in today's world funny how setting can change your outlook on things like genocide. Schutzstaffel for those who don't get the reference. Sort of why i like the 40k Space wolves is that they do have a sense of right and wrong and their willingness to tell the more ruthless factions in the imperium where to go. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2975767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decepticon Soundwave Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Curze never shied away from a fight this is true, however in the early parts of the crusade when his legion was made up of terrans and Nostramans that were not criminals and to the middle he would state who he was and planets would surrender. Middle to late crusade same thing would happen except the Night Lords would proceed to slaughter as much of the indigs as possible, because the legion by that point was super human gangers from planet crime. Nostramo theres no deadly hive of scum and villainy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2975790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 All this talk of loyalty reminds me of a group of men from the last century who where loyal to death did all that was asked of them and where not afraid to get there hands dirty. These men are reviled and seen as monsters in today's world funny how setting can change your outlook on things like genocide. Schutzstaffel for those who don't get the reference. Sort of why i like the 40k Space wolves is that they do have a sense of right and wrong and their willingness to tell the more ruthless factions in the imperium where to go. Which is completely at odds with their portrayal as doing exactly the opposite in Prospero Burns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2975804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 lot of people have questioned that contridiction BOTF sort of explains the change from 30k wolves to the 40k wolves philosophy. With the mortals gaining the respect to the wolves plus some have speculated packs follows alphas in 40k there is no alpha worthy enough to follow. in 30k the emperor is alive so orders are followed. but just because some beta high lord and inquisitor says so is not enough. Logan grimnar also seems to be responsible for a lot of the selfless actions Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2975808 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Explanation or not, the Space Wolves of today are not the reavers of 30K. That was the depiction I find more fitting. Drunken bar fights and large canines are a far cry from the warriors who burnt the stars with Russ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2975830 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 LOL Russ was famous for drunken fights(emperor and horus) and large canines. My god he got the wolves to drink their genseed with meade Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2975842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 You can thank William King for that silliness. Also, that 'Mead/Mjod' is non-alcoholic. Its anti-freeze. So all that 'drinking' Space Wolves do isnt partying like a fratstar, its keeping them from getting hypothermia. The way it sounds in your sub-forum its like you walk into the Fang and see a bunch of hairy dudes bro fisting and drinking out of red solo cups while playing mjod pong with the skull of an orc. The hard drinking nord is an archtype I'd like to see dead with Tolkien. Not enough is given over to Scandanvians being the bogeymen of the Baltic and British Isles. Also, unless the Emperor messed up somewhere, Primarchs cant get drunk. Their metabolism would be too fast. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245559-my-legion-is-better-than-yours/page/5/#findComment-2975850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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