My legion is better than yours

[King Willy]

Why would Space Marines be phisiologically unable to get drunk? That's something that discipline and psycho-indoctrination are supposed to do, it's not like the Emperor created Russ and said "Uh oh, this one shall love the fine taste and mad-awesome effects of thy booze, better put a safeguard mechanism in these guys". You can't control every aspect of human nature, I'm sure Empy could see the value of teaching the Primarchs about consequences. And I'm sure the Space Wolf codex provides enough facts on the effects of alcohol on the Marines, especially the part about it raising the probability of a brawl occurring.

 

He gave that pamphlet to the Smurfs and Fists mate.

Plus they got super livers, i reckon you could hook a marine up to an IV of heroin and they ll be sweet. And I wouldn't be surprised if the indoctrination makes it possible to regulate internal processes with a thought rather then letting time control everything

 

I wouldn't worry bout the NL, I reckon soon as the rumored Chaos marine codex comes out and the rumored legions return we ll get heaps of NL bitz and bobs including books, if the rumors a true. CAN'T :cussING WAIT

[Greyall]

Aye, for sure it'd be difficult to cause any kind of intoxication on Space Marines, but they still need to breathe and eat, so that shows us there are limits to their physiology.

 

Now that I think about it, how come I've never read an account on a Space Wolves' feast? Must be one hell of a party.

[dswanick]

confusion springs up when people take Sahaal at his word

As opposed to taking Acerbus at his? :P

When one of them is contradicting the 2nd and 3rd Edition background about the Night Lords and the Emperor, and the other one isn't, then, yes. It is not like we have to take either of them just up on their word. We can look it up in the fluff and see that, yep, Sahaal had it wrong, it was exactly like Acerbus said. No uncertainty whatsoever, unless one forgets the actual fluff when reading that book.

Do I need to drag out my White Dwarf quote stating the Ultramarines are a 3rd Founding chapter using Traitor Legion gene-seed? :) (Maybe I should let Legatus quote it this time, and he can throw in the Space Wolves bit)

There is no "right" fluff/"wrong" fluff. All fluff is propaganda, lies, and myths - as related by an individual with his own limited perspective. Each reader takes from it whatever "truth" they want.

[Legatus]

Do I need to drag out my White Dwarf quote stating the Ultramarines are a 3rd Founding chapter using Traitor Legion gene-seed? smile.gif (Maybe I should let Legatus quote it this time, and he can throw in the Space Wolves bit)

There is no "right" fluff/"wrong" fluff. All fluff is propaganda, lies, and myths - as related by an individual with his own limited perspective. Each reader takes from it whatever "truth" they want.

When you have two subjective accounts in a story, one in accordance with two editions of background, the other one contradicting it, we know which of the accounts is correct. Plain and simple. "Maybe the previous Chaos Codices were wrong about the fluff, and the subjective opinion of that one character in this new novel is what actually happened" is not a viable position.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I've noticed a trend lately, for people to read what they want to read in the horus heresy fluff. I've noticed one or two Wolf players who seem to think their Legion is the "uber, super-duper, anti-chaos legion of awesome". Not picking on anyone, just using the first example I could find.

 

It's been made clear that each Primarch had a purpose, some (but not all) had their purpose tied into their legion, some where individual. Let's examine them, first the one's whose purpose is confirmed or can be figured out with a good level of certainty. ALL of these purposes where desighned for POST-CRUSADE, during the crusade it was a case of all hands on deck, the Prmarchs where desighned for something greater, long-term before the Heresy screwed it all to hell and back.

 

Magnus: The first Primarch in our list who's legion doesn't actualy matter. It's been made very clear that magnus was the guy supposed to sit on the golden throne for eternity and power the astronomicon beacon on Terra. His legion where a side-effect, which is probably why the Emperor never bothered to fix their mutation isues and it was left to magnus (by making a deal with the devil so to speak) to salvage his legion. The Emperor only wanted Magnus, he didn't care about Magnus' legion.

 

Petuarbo and Dorn: These guys are the architects of the Imperium, it's pretty clear their job post-crusade would be to fortify the Imperium, to build a fortress out of the Imperium that wuld last forever.

 

Horus: Horus was bred to be the Emperor's executive officer, right hand man and second in command.

 

Russ: The executioner,post-crusade he seems to have been the guy bred to be the final arbiter, the judgement of the Emperor, the guy who gets sent in to do a job, any job, without mercy, without compassion. His legion was not desighned to fight the warp, his was desighned to fight anythinga and everything that the Emperor needed them to fight, even ther own kind.

 

Guiliman: Where Dorn and Petuarbo where to build the Imperium's defence, Guiliman was to build the Imperium. He was an architect of Humanity, the architect of civilisation.

 

Lorgar: The last of the architects, the architect of the soul. He was to build the Imperium's hearts, had he not taken his role too literaly and found himself worshipping the Emperor, he could of been responsible for the Imperial truth post-crusade.

 

The others I'm not sure about.

 

 

This actually should have been done sooner, but better late than never.

 

All of you, back on topic, please

[eyeslikethunder]

There is no "right" fluff/"wrong" fluff. All fluff is propaganda, lies, and myths - as related by an individual with his own limited perspective. Each reader takes from it whatever "truth" they want.

 

--------------------

QFT

[eyeslikethunder]

ALL of these purposes where desighned for POST-CRUSADE, during the crusade it was a case of all hands on deck, the Prmarchs where desighned for something greater, long-term before the Heresy screwed it all to hell and back.

 

I suspect the emperor did not want them for the long term and they would have found themselves going the way of the thunder warriors if they had completed the great crusade. Which of the Loyalist primarchs lived longest?

[Conn Eremon]

ALL of these purposes where desighned for POST-CRUSADE, during the crusade it was a case of all hands on deck, the Prmarchs where desighned for something greater, long-term before the Heresy screwed it all to hell and back.

 

I suspect the emperor did not want them for the long term and they would have found themselves going the way of the thunder warriors if they had completed the great crusade. Which of the Loyalist primarchs lived longest?

 

There is at least one instance of that being not true, Magnus. He was supposed to sit on that Golden Throne, not the Emperor. But I don't believe he ever meant them to go the way of the Thunder Warriors. The Thunder Warriors were inherently defective as time wore on. The Primarchs were his most perfect immortal creations. You don't create that if you're just going to get rid of it afterwards. What he meant for them, I have no idea. In Deliverance Lost, Corax finds himself in a gigantic cavern under the Imperial Palace, with twenty Primarch-sized mansions ringing a large, underground fresh lake. Perhaps the Emperor simply wished for them to retire. But I doubt even that, I think they were built in preparation for growing Primarchs that were never there, thanks to the Warp tossing them throughout the galaxy. No, I think the Great Crusade might have been finished, but the Primarchs' wars never would be. In 40k, there is nothing but war. It might have been better if there'd been no Heresy to fracture the Legions and 'kill' the Emperor, but there would always be conflicts for the Legions to be needed. Especially if the Emperor knew about the coming threats like the Necrons, Tyranids, and dare I say it, Tau. Imagine what 40k would be like, if all 17* Primarchs were still alive and kicking, leading loyalist Legions under the guidance of the Emperor, when the Necrons awoke and the Tyranids invaded. It'd be on, like Donkey Kong.

 

*I can stretch my imagination far enough to encompass most of the Traitor Legions staying loyal, but not Lorgar and his Word Bearers. I see them becoming the 3rd lost or missing Primarch/Legion, if there is no Heresy.

[ZeitgeistGlee]

Magnus: The first Primarch in our list who's legion doesn't actualy matter. It's been made very clear that magnus was the guy supposed to sit on the golden throne for eternity and power the astronomicon beacon on Terra. His legion where a side-effect, which is probably why the Emperor never bothered to fix their mutation isues and it was left to magnus (by making a deal with the devil so to speak) to salvage his legion. The Emperor only wanted Magnus, he didn't care about Magnus' legion.

 

I have to disagree to a small extent with this, sure Magnus's eventual role as keeper of the Golden Throne is fairly set in stone but to say the Emperor's lack of intervention with the Thousand Sons proved he had no interest or stake in them as a legion is a slight stretch. Arguably the only reason

the Emperor gave Corax access to the gene seed tech

in Deliverance Lost

is because the he agreed the RG needed to be brought back to strength as soon as possible

, it may also be that the Thousand Sons initial mutation made it impossible to stabilize in the first place and Tzeentch simply held off mutating any more until the opportune time.

 

To me, based on their reputation as Warrior Scholars, it's probable the Thousand Sons were intended to fulfill a similar role to the Imperial Conversators from Prospero Burns albeit on a larger, more dangerous scale. Tizca was home to the largest repository of knowledge in the Imperium, and the TSs made it their business to study the cultures they encountered whether friend, neutral or foe and learn from them what they could. Arguably post-Crusade it would be the TSs jobs to rediscover as much lost knowledge or catalog knowledge in general, not only of Ancient Terra, but the Imperium as a whole, a task which not only suited them but they themselves appeared to take pride and enjoyment in doing. If Lorgar was to be the Architect of the Soul, it may have been Magnus was intended to be Architect of the Mind, albeit in a capacity through his legion.

 

It may also have been the TSs were intended to be Magnus's Astropathic Choir for the Golden Throne.

[calgar101]

Umm some one was only needed to sit on the Throne after Magnus broke it, I do not believe he was created solely to be sat upon it indefinitely. I believe he would have sat on it and kept the warp gate shut, to allow the Emperor to have created a stable and safe connection. It was hard for the Emperor to keep daemons from invading Terra whilst fixing the portal that's why he had to sit on the Throne.

[Blood Angel Scout]

Umm some one was only needed to sit on the Throne after Magnus broke it, I do not believe he was created solely to be sat upon it indefinitely. I believe he would have sat on it and kept the warp gate shut, to allow the Emperor to have created a stable and safe connection. It was hard for the Emperor to keep daemons from invading Terra whilst fixing the portal that's why he had to sit on the Throne.

 

 

Not quite. The Golden Throne's design was related to the functioning of the human webway (I think it was the equivelent of controlling Tetris, "this block in here, will pause it and come back after dinner") and the daemons were only able to gain access following Magnus breaking through hence the Emperor needed to constantly be in it follwing this point.

 

Will agree that Magnus was not to sit in it indefinetly or at least that's my own interpretation of the scene in A Thousand Sons where he sees the Emperor's intentions and the destruction he'd caused. Can't quote it as no copy to hand but hopefully someone could?

 

Cheers

[hendrik]

Will agree that Magnus was not to sit in it indefinetly or at least that's my own interpretation of the scene in A Thousand Sons where he sees the Emperor's intentions and the destruction he'd caused. Can't quote it as no copy to hand but hopefully someone could?

can't find my copy immediatly but from the description they actually give i always thought magnus was shown the real future, with the emperor on the golden throne, however in all his despair, and driven by the deamons deception he thought he saw himself in the smouldering corpse (i believe that's how it was described)

[Arkangilos]

Will agree that Magnus was not to sit in it indefinetly or at least that's my own interpretation of the scene in A Thousand Sons where he sees the Emperor's intentions and the destruction he'd caused. Can't quote it as no copy to hand but hopefully someone could?

can't find my copy immediatly but from the description they actually give i always thought magnus was shown the real future, with the emperor on the golden throne, however in all his despair, and driven by the deamons deception he thought he saw himself in the smouldering corpse (i believe that's how it was described)

 

Funny how the Chaos Gods lied in both truths.

 

They showed Horus the future he would create, saying it was the Emperor or removed Horus, and they showed Magnus the future of the Emperor in the state Magnus created, and said it was him in the throne.

[Blood Angel Scout]

Will agree that Magnus was not to sit in it indefinetly or at least that's my own interpretation of the scene in A Thousand Sons where he sees the Emperor's intentions and the destruction he'd caused. Can't quote it as no copy to hand but hopefully someone could?

can't find my copy immediatly but from the description they actually give i always thought magnus was shown the real future, with the emperor on the golden throne, however in all his despair, and driven by the deamons deception he thought he saw himself in the smouldering corpse (i believe that's how it was described)

 

 

Know what you scene you're referring to, which is when Magnus finally decides to fight back against the Wolves. I was refering to the earlier scenes when Magnus got his message to the Emperor then shown the consequences to his actions.

[Decepticon Soundwave]

I realize that II and XI were expunged and whatever they did no one talks about. But I am hoping in future books we will find out what they did. Because I mean Horus Burned half the galaxy and people still talk about that cat in the canon. With that in mind I am hoping the Primarchs which will be a short story book will give us more hints.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I realize that II and XI were expunged and whatever they did no one talks about. But I am hoping in future books we will find out what they did. Because I mean Horus Burned half the galaxy and people still talk about that cat in the canon. With that in mind I am hoping the Primarchs which will be a short story book will give us more hints.

 

I think though that the Heresy was such a big part of everything, from a creation point of view as well, that it had to be a focus and something that was come back to time and again.

 

The Lost Legions is more of hedging of bets; it's an interesting plot device for the universe, plus if GW ever get tired of the mystery they can have a definitive answer rather than just put something out and a better idea comes along.

[Arkangilos]

Yeah. Also, the other two legions might have been more isolated. It is hard to cover up NINE ENTIRE LEGIONS after they BURNED HALF THE GALAXY.

:P

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Yeah. Also, the other two legions might have been more isolated. It is hard to cover up NINE ENTIRE LEGIONS after they BURNED HALF THE GALAXY.

^_^

 

It's a good point, if the lost 2 where taken out early in the crusade then operational security would be maintained. However it does seem from the books that a fair few people know about it, they just don't talk about it.

[Decepticon Soundwave]

Yeah. Also, the other two legions might have been more isolated. It is hard to cover up NINE ENTIRE LEGIONS after they BURNED HALF THE GALAXY.

:D

 

It's a good point, if the lost 2 where taken out early in the crusade then operational security would be maintained. However it does seem from the books that a fair few people know about it, they just don't talk about it.

 

 

Yeah Primarchs, Malcador, the Custodes thats 1019 people outsideof the emperor and I am pretty sure the standard astartes who saw are dead or are captains.

 

even so from what i heard in future books we will be hearing more about those two and will have a better idea of what they did that was worse then horus. My theories are they either tried to assassinate the emperor all ninja like or they went native all colonel kurtz style.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Yeah. Also, the other two legions might have been more isolated. It is hard to cover up NINE ENTIRE LEGIONS after they BURNED HALF THE GALAXY.

:D

 

It's a good point, if the lost 2 where taken out early in the crusade then operational security would be maintained. However it does seem from the books that a fair few people know about it, they just don't talk about it.

 

 

Yeah Primarchs, Malcador, the Custodes thats 1019 people outsideof the emperor and I am pretty sure the standard astartes who saw are dead or are captains.

 

Also, don't forget

that it's infered in a couple of books that the Ultramarines had a massive intake of Marines right around the time of the Lost Legions. So if that's true, that's tens of thousands more!

 

[Legatus]

Also, don't forget that it's infered in a couple of books that the Ultramarines had a massive intake of Marines right around the time of the Lost Legions. So if that's true, that's tens of thousands more!

No need for spoilers there, due to its bogus nature. And it is worth pointing out that the author of said story has confirmed that this was nothing more than a throwaway conspiracy theory cooked up by a couple of Word Bearer Marines. GW/BL will not reveal what has happened with the lost Legions, but the BL authors are having a bit of fun throwing in a few rumours here and there.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I don't think the Ultramarines are made from 3 legions. I think their quality is quantity. Where other legions have wolf like natute, stealth specialists, armour crafting expertise and heavy bionics the ultramarines are simply big. Afterall quantity is a quality in itself.

[Blood Angel Scout]

Just a thought...

 

Could this be in regard to the expunged legions?

 

Eristede Kell,” Tariel answered instantly. “Clade Vindicare. Currently on an extended duration deployment targeted at the eventual eradication of exocitizen criminal groups in the Atalantic Delimited Zone. Among the top percentile of field-deployed special operatives. Fifty-two confirmed kills, including the Tyrant of Daas, Queen Mortog Haeven, the Eldar general Sellians nil Kaheen, Brother-Captain—” Valdor held up his hand. “I don’t need to know his record. I need to know him.”

 

Cheers

[Legatus]

I don't think the Ultramarines are made from 3 legions. I think their quality is quantity. Where other legions have wolf like natute, stealth specialists, armour crafting expertise and heavy bionics the ultramarines are simply big. Afterall quantity is a quality in itself.

An understandable assessment, based in the observation that they indeed were the largest Legion. But I do feel the need to point out that Guilliman was not given the largest Legion by the Emperor. The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines elaborated that due to the effective recruitment procedures Guilliman established for the Legion, and due to his forces taking fewer casualties than any other, his Legion soon became the largest. The Codex also explained that he was already making faster progress in the Crusade than other Legions before his Legion started to grow. Essentially, the Ultramarines were not so successful because they were so big, they became so big because they were so successful.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I don't think the Ultramarines are made from 3 legions. I think their quality is quantity. Where other legions have wolf like natute, stealth specialists, armour crafting expertise and heavy bionics the ultramarines are simply big. Afterall quantity is a quality in itself.

An understandable assessment, based in the observation that they indeed were the largest Legion. But I do feel the need to point out that Guilliman was not given the largest Legion by the Emperor. The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines elaborated that due to the effective recruitment procedures Guilliman established for the Legion, and due to his forces taking fewer casualties than any other, his Legion soon became the largest. The Codex also explained that he was already making faster progress in the Crusade than other Legions before his Legion started to grow. Essentially, the Ultramarines were not so successful because they were so big, they became so big because they were so successful.

 

Any ideas on why these recruitment procedures might not have been passed to the other Legions, as I dont think that they were. Best practice would be a thing to share I would assume, so that even if the other Legions have higher casualty rates that best practice would should a result.