My legion is better than yours

[Blood Angel Scout]

I don't think the Ultramarines are made from 3 legions. I think their quality is quantity. Where other legions have wolf like natute, stealth specialists, armour crafting expertise and heavy bionics the ultramarines are simply big. Afterall quantity is a quality in itself.

An understandable assessment, based in the observation that they indeed were the largest Legion. But I do feel the need to point out that Guilliman was not given the largest Legion by the Emperor. The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines elaborated that due to the effective recruitment procedures Guilliman established for the Legion, and due to his forces taking fewer casualties than any other, his Legion soon became the largest. The Codex also explained that he was already making faster progress in the Crusade than other Legions before his Legion started to grow. Essentially, the Ultramarines were not so successful because they were so big, they became so big because they were so successful.

 

Could this be the reason that Ultramarine's system consists of 500 worlds in Know No Fear? Wider population to select from would give more plausibility than simply cause Guilliman had organised it better than any other legion, even though they would've been given the same blueprint from the Emperor.

 

Plus, it would also help to evolve the fluff away from that which was originally published 15 year ago, as a basis for many "debates", much in the way 2nd edition retconned 1st edition....

 

Cheers

[Legatus]

If other Legions can sustain 100,000 Marines with a single homeworld, then the Ultramarines should be able to sustain 250,000 Marines with eight worlds.

 

 

Any ideas on why these recruitment procedures might not have been passed to the other Legions, as I dont think that they were. Best practice would be a thing to share I would assume, so that even if the other Legions have higher casualty rates that best practice would should a result.

A lot of sources suggest that Guilliman was more than willing to provide his insights to his brothers. but some of them also suggest that those were not allways interested in hearing about it. Alpharius in particular was downright insulted that Guilliman would suggest he adopted his doctrines.

 

The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines described that Guilliman would allways make sure that the worlds he liberated had a working industry and defenses, as well as establishing trade and supply routes between the conquered worlds. That is given as one of the major reasons for why the Ultramarines were able to make such fast progress during the Crusade. It was not that they were faster at defeating enemies, it was more that their logistics were so efficient that they had little delays or setbacks due to low supplies or having to wait for reinforcements. This was also part of the reason why they were able to receive constant supplies and were able to grow. So in order for any of the other Legion to adopt that kind of procedure, they would not simply have to have had established recruitment centers on their homeworld, they would also have to have had adopted the practice of nursing up the conquered worlds and integrating them into trade and supply networks. A lot of Primarchs would probably not have been willing to put up with that, instead seeking the glory of conquest.

[The 13th Goat]

A lot of sources suggest that Guilliman was more than willing to provide his insights to his brothers. but some of them also suggest that those were not allways interested in hearing about it. Alpharius in particular was downright insulted that Guilliman would suggest he adopted his doctrines.

 

Hmmm by "willing to provide" do you mean throw a strop when other Legion's didn't perform like his? As for Alpharius, it is implied that it was Guilliman that started a heated argument, berating his brother for "wasting time and bolt shells" when the Alpha Legion captured a world with only a handfull of casualties; because everyone knows victory without deaths means no cake on Macragge.

 

The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines described that Guilliman would allways make sure that the worlds he liberated had a working industry and defenses, as well as establishing trade and supply routes between the conquered worlds. That is given as one of the major reasons for why the Ultramarines were able to make such fast progress during the Crusade. It was not that they were faster at defeating enemies, it was more that their logistics were so efficient that they had little delays or setbacks due to low supplies or having to wait for reinforcements. This was also part of the reason why they were able to receive constant supplies and were able to grow. So in order for any of the other Legion to adopt that kind of procedure, they would not simply have to have had established recruitment centers on their homeworld, they would also have to have had adopted the practice of nursing up the conquered worlds and integrating them into trade and supply networks. A lot of Primarchs would probably not have been willing to put up with that, instead seeking the glory of conquest.

 

I'm sure tacticians like Dorn, Peturabo, the Lion and Vulkan never did any of those things and instead rushed ahead like all the other legions. Truly the Ultramarines were the only Legion smart enough to have supply lines ready! :D

 

Guilliman had a much larger force, no doubt due to the amount of worlds he had to recruit from. He is obviously going to expand quicker; no one has ever claimed it was down to their speed at victory that gave them this lead. If Khan or Russ had been recruiting from different worlds, the Ultramarine lead might not have been so secure...

 

And before anyone ask's, I'm not smurf bashing. The Ultra's are fine, I just think they had a great hand to play as oppossed to being guided to greatness by a "superior" Primarch.

[Legatus]

Hmmm by "willing to provide" do you mean throw a strop when other Legion's didn't perform like his?

I have not read any of the Horus Heresy novels, so I have missed the book where something like that was apparently described.

 

 

As for Alpharius, it is implied that it was Guilliman that started a heated argument, berating his brother for "wasting time and bolt shells" when the Alpha Legion captured a world with only a handfull of casualties; because everyone knows victory without deaths means no cake on Macragge.

Guilliman's assessment of the Alpha Legion's performance on Tesstra occurred after they had their heated debate. Alpharius had deliberately took his time during that campaign, to show off what his Legion could do. For that purpose he let the enemy forces assemble instead of eliminating them quickly. Guilliman was not the only Primarch who was not impressed by such actions, and the Alpha Legion's performance was said to have "invited censure from many quarters". Guilliman's comments are mentioned in particular, since he and Alpharius had the debate earlier, and because the Index Astartes article intended to establish the Ultramarines as a target for the Alpha Legion (even though the earlier 3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines had mentioned that the Alpha Legion and the Imperial Fists had a particularly bad relationship).

 

Apart from that, since 2nd Edition it had been the background of the Alpha Legion to fanatically compete against the other Legions, and finally to willingly side with Horus for the opportunity to fight against other Space Marine Legions. To then suggest that it was Guilliman who was responsible to have a discussion about tactics and doctrine turn sour, and not the overly competetive Alpharius, seems to disregard the Alpha Legion's nature. (The Ultramarines' as well, but that is to be expected.)

 

 

I'm sure tacticians like Dorn, Peturabo, the Lion and Vulkan never did any of those things and instead rushed ahead like all the other legions. Truly the Ultramarines were the only Legion smart enough to have supply lines ready! dry.gif

Apparently. I suppose they did not see that as part of their responsibility. The Sons of Horus in particular had been described in their own Index Astartes article to not have cared one bit what happened to a world after they had crushed the enemy forces. They immediately moved on to the next theatre, often leaving behind worlds in ruin and unhappy people.

 

 

Guilliman had a much larger force, no doubt due to the amount of worlds he had to recruit from. He is obviously going to expand quicker; no one has ever claimed it was down to their speed at victory that gave them this lead. If Khan or Russ had been recruiting from different worlds, the Ultramarine lead might not have been so secure...

They were said to have made faster progress than the other Legions even before becoming the largest, all due to how Guilliman was organizing the trade and suppy lines.

 

 

"Whenever Roboute Guilliman freed a world from the tyranny of Orks, Chaos or other aliens, his first priority was to set up a self-supporting defence system. Once a world was safe he could move on, leaving behind enough advisers to ensure that industry would be created, trading routes set up with the Imperium, and government directed towards the prosperity of the people. In this way the Ultramarines could conquer worlds faster than any other Space Marine Legion.

Meanwhile, the fortress of the Ultramarines grew on Macragge. Some Ultramarines remained behind to supervise the work, which progressed rapidly thanks to the ready trading network and advanced industries of the planet. Within a year a training base was established, and recruiting began on the planet Macragge and surrounding worlds. It was not long before the Ultramarines Legion received its first influx of warriors born and bred on Macragge. Thanks to their usual thoroughness of organisation, the Ultramarines were able to receive constant recruits throughout the Great Crusade. Because of its strong recruitsment base and Roboute Guilliman's tactical expertise the Ultramarines soon became the largest Space Marine Legion, having more recruits than any other Legion and suffering fewer casualties."

(2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 12)

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Isn't it also rumored that the UM numbers were swelled by the Legionnaires of the 2 pre-heresy heretic legions?

[Legatus]

More "joked about" than rumoured. And that's what started the current line of discussion... :D

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Oh, haha. My bad.

[The 13th Goat]

I have not read any of the Horus Heresy novels, so I have missed the book where something like that was apparently described.

 

Given that the novels reveal alot about the motivation of all the Legions and their relationships with each other, I would definetly recommend you pick them up. The Ultramarines fluff (like so many others) is changing; your interpretations of certain events are slightly off (but not the genral points).

 

 

Guilliman's assessment of the Alpha Legion's performance on Tesstra occurred after they had their heated debate. Alpharius had deliberately took his time during that campaign, to show off what his Legion could do. For that purpose he let the enemy forces assemble instead of eliminating them quickly. Guilliman was not the only Primarch who was not impressed by such actions, and the Alpha Legion's performance was said to have "invited censure from many quarters". Guilliman's comments are mentioned in particular, since he and Alpharius had the debate earlier, and because the Index Astartes article intended to establish the Ultramarines as a target for the Alpha Legion (even though the earlier 3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines had mentioned that the Alpha Legion and the Imperial Fists had a particularly bad relationship).

 

This is entirely possible, I don't have the IA's handy. Regardless, I find that a comprehensive victory with little collataral damage far more useful that a quick and costly assult, and I don't doubt many other Imperial genrals (including Guilliman, which was why I never understood this story) would agree. Guilliman never struck me as the guy that got shirty about battle pride and crushing wins, which theoretically puts him in the same mindset as Alpharius.

 

Apart from that, since 2nd Edition it had been the background of the Alpha Legion to fanatically compete against the other Legions, and finally to willingly side with Horus for the opportunity to fight against other Space Marine Legions. To then suggest that it was Guilliman who was responsible to have a discussion about tactics and doctrine turn sour, and not the overly competetive Alpharius, seems to disregard the Alpha Legion's nature. (The Ultramarines' as well, but that is to be expected.)

 

Horrifically reteconned. They have an entirely new storyline that has nothing to do with "competion". Without giving you spoilers, read Legion.

 

 

Apparently. I suppose they did not see that as part of their responsibility. The Sons of Horus in particular had been described in their own Index Astartes article to not have cared one bit what happened to a world after they had crushed the enemy forces. They immediately moved on to the next theatre, often leaving behind worlds in ruin and unhappy people.

 

You may be missing my point; Vulkan sure as hell cared for his people, that was his entire schtik. Dorn and Perturabo are both defensive specialists, and as a result would not proceed without the support line in place. The Lion, much like Sanguinius, Corax and Guilliman, was a master tactician. They would have likely come to similar conclusions in term of progress.

 

Only the Wolves (both), Scars, Iron Hands, Worldeaters and Nightlords have ever been shown to rush ahead without supprt from auxillaries, and even then not in the way you describe. The first HH books cover how the Luna Wolves typically went to war when conquesting.

 

 

They were said to have made faster progress than the other Legions even before becoming the largest, all due to how Guilliman was organizing the trade and suppy lines.

 

Again, we are mid-retecon on that. Despite that, it doesn't make sense; better supply lines don't mean they grow faster, and attrition would not account for the size they had in comparisson to the other Legions. 8 homeworlds is genrally accepted as the reason why they were larger, and if you believe Lorgar then it may also have something to do with the 2 missing Legions.

 

I don't mean to tear you apart over this, but newer source material contradicts what your asserting. 2nd edition Codices and pre-HH series IAs are quicly becoming obsolete as newer, first person accounts become availible.

 

Again, this is in healthy debate, no hard feelings.

[Legatus]

This is entirely possible, I don't have the IA's handy. Regardless, I find that a comprehensive victory with little collataral damage far more useful that a quick and costly assult, and I don't doubt many other Imperial genrals (including Guilliman, which was why I never understood this story) would agree. Guilliman never struck me as the guy that got shirty about battle pride and crushing wins, which theoretically puts him in the same mindset as Alpharius.

Emphasis mine. It was specifically the amount of damage that could have been avoided that prompted Guillimans critique. From the Index Astartes article:

 

"On the world of Tesstra Prime, the population was violently resistant to the idea of Imperial rule. Alpharius deliberately delayed his assault a full week to allow the planet's armies to amass and dig in around the sprawling capital city. When the battle commenced, there were close to a million soldiers arrayed against the Alpha Legion. However, the week had not been spent idly. The Space Marines had deployed such that they could attack from various directions and leave huge sections of the defensive line untouched. Just as the assault was launched, bombs detonated within the city demolished dozens of bridges and blocked major supply routes. The defending Tesstran commanders found themselves unable to move troops and supplies into the areas under attack or out of areas that were being ignored. The divided forces tried to hold out against the relentless advance of the Alpha Legion, but the lack of ammunition and reinforcements made it a hopeless task. And, of course, while help could not be brought in, retreating soldiers found they could not get out fast enough either. Thousands ended up herded together down the few remaining escape routes and were cut to pieces in an endless rain of bolter shells. It was 2 days before enough of the defenders could be redeployed to mount a serious counterattack. However, officiers in the Tesstran army had somehow been compromised, and these traitors betrayed details of the plan. The counterattack advanced into a trap and found itself beset by armored Space Marines on all sides. Within a week, the Tesstran forces had suffered 90% casualties. When asked why he had not simply seized the capital before the defending armies arrived, Alpharius replied, "It would have been too easy" (cf. Inq. file 3045621/M.30 [battle ethics]).

His conduct in the battle for Tesstra invited censure from many quarters. Roboute Guilliman is recorded as having called it "a huge waste of time, effort, and the Emperor's bolt shells." However, concerns about alleged atrocities committed by the Night Lords Legion diverted attention away from the invicident. Nevertheless, Alpharius was furious at the reaction to his Legion's masterful performance. Only Horus openly praised the manner in which the Alpha Legion had overcome an opposition that outnumbered them a hundred to one."

(3rd Edition Index Astartes Alpha Legion)

 

So, instead of taking the world with little collateral damage, the Alpha Legion deliberately arranged it so that the fighting would be heavier than it would have needed to have been. The usual approach, as suggested by the enquiry posed after the battle, would have been to quickly seize the capital city, and not even allow the defenders to consolidate their forces. That way the capital city could have remained relatively unharmed, and it would not have been necessary to decimate 90% of the planet's defense forces to achieve victory. What the Alpha Legion did was to allow the enemy force to assemble, just so they could prove their prowess. In the subsequent heavy fighting the city and the defense forces suffered heavy damage. That Alpharis did all of that not out of some tactical considerations but just to prove his Legions capabilities was apparently also seen as unethical conduct. It took the Night Lords going on a rampage through the Imperium to divert attention away from this incident. This was by no means Guilliman's isolated complaint. His was merely one comment that was cited in the description.

 

 

Apart from that, since 2nd Edition it had been the background of the Alpha Legion to fanatically compete against the other Legions, and finally to willingly side with Horus for the opportunity to fight against other Space Marine Legions. To then suggest that it was Guilliman who was responsible to have a discussion about tactics and doctrine turn sour, and not the overly competetive Alpharius, seems to disregard the Alpha Legion's nature. (The Ultramarines' as well, but that is to be expected.)

Horrifically reteconned. They have an entirely new storyline that has nothing to do with "competion".

Not in the Index Astartes article, though.

 

 

You may be missing my point; Vulkan sure as hell cared for his people, that was his entire schtik. Dorn and Perturabo are both defensive specialists, and as a result would not proceed without the support line in place. The Lion, much like Sanguinius, Corax and Guilliman, was a master tactician. They would have likely come to similar conclusions in term of progress.

But they see themselves as generals, not civil architects. Creating a trade and supply network is also more a question of logistics, not tactics. Apparently, most Legions were satisfied with the recruitment techniques handed over to them by the Imperial military. And it is not like that did not do the job. The way Guilliman had organised his supplies and reinforcements just proved to be more efficient than that.

 

 

Again, we are mid-retecon on that. Despite that, it doesn't make sense; better supply lines don't mean they grow faster, and attrition would not account for the size they had in comparisson to the other Legions. 8 homeworlds is genrally accepted as the reason why they were larger

The 5th Edition Codex Space Marines repeats the 2nd Edition explanation on page 13. And since the Black Library series is not called "The Great Crusade" and we see the Ultramarines already being two and a half times the size of a regular Legion, I don't actually think we will be given a differing explanation of their size.

 

 

and if you believe Lorgar then it may also have something to do with the 2 missing Legions.

I believe Aaron Dembski-Bowden when he says that he was just having a bit of fun when he had some of his Word Bearer characters ramble about that, and did not really meant it as any kind of shocking revelation.

 

 

I don't mean to tear you apart over this, but newer source material contradicts what your asserting. 2nd edition Codices and pre-HH series IAs are quicly becoming obsolete as newer, first person accounts become availible.

Well, the initial issue was that it had been claimed that the Ultramarines' quality was their size, to which I had replied that their size was merely the reult of their actual qualities. They became so big because of their successes. They were not successful because of their size. I don't think that has been retconned yet, and I am not holding my breath that it will be.

 

Then it had been asked why Guilliman was not sharing his successful recruitment procedures with the other Legions. If I am not mistaken the new Horus Heresy novel "Know No Fear" confirms that Guilliman's treatises on doctrine had been made available to his brother Legions, so it seems my reply to that issue is not going to be retconned any time soon either.

 

Then the Index Astartes Alpha Legion had been cited as an example of where Guilliman had supposedly reacted poorly when someone was not accepting his doctrines. My reply that it would have been Alpharius who would have to be blamed for the debate turning heated is based on the background that both Guilliman and Alpharius had at the time the Index Astartes article had been written. Even if Alpharius' character is completely changed in later publications, that will not change that at the time the Index Astartes article had been written he was still the competetive youngest son who strived to prove himself against his brothers, so their actions in that article have to be judged accordingly.

[Grimdarkness]

Uhhm Robby was a logistic master his building up worlds has nothing to do with tactics or Strategy. That is my only nit pick.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Every Legion had their own way of doing things. Some stayed behind to rebuild and resupply (the Ultramarines) others left this task to the Imperial army and moved on (Space Wolves).

[Necoho]

Uhhm Robby was a logistic master his building up worlds has nothing to do with tactics or Strategy. That is my only nit pick.

I think you can see it as a vital part of strategy, rather than tactics. Obviously tactics-wise he was meant to be very strong too: he's modelled on the Roman Consul who would be a political leader and a wartime general, after all.

 

But my impression is that the Lion and Sanguinus were great battlefield generals rather than excelling at the entire strategy, which to me would include logistics etc. Presumably Horus has to worry about the wider strategy once he's Warmaster, though, even if that's not particularly in the Luna Wolves' makeup.

 

Presumably the geneseed purity of the Ultras might have given them an advantage in terms of numbers? At least over some legions. Also there could well be differences due to recruitment techniques, due to obvious things like ridiculous criteria/perfectionism, but also just inefficiencies such as cutting out recruits at too late a point and having to start from scratch.

[Epistolary Exander]

The entire point of how the Ultras had supperior methods in how to bring new marines into their ranks is kind of moot given other material. In Fallen Angels it states that the DA have the most efficient recruitment process of all the legions. If you are looking at the actual time span it takes to turn an aspirant into a marine then insanguination and the blooding of the BA & SW take a lot less time than the method used by the Ultras. The primary reason I believe how the UM could have such a large legion with their aspirant transformation process if they are recruiting from their 8 worlds of Ultramar, which has already been stated, but not because they have superior methods than any other legion.

 

This doesnt even take into account how the EC before the heresy have superior geneseed purity over the UM, which again would raise doubts to claim the UM had superior recuiting processes as quality of geneseed maintenense is literally integral to a marine organisations recruitment process.

[Legatus]

The entire point of how the Ultras had supperior methods in how to bring new marines into their ranks is kind of moot given other material. In Fallen Angels it states that the DA have the most efficient recruitment process of all the legions.

What an odd thing of a Black Library novel to claim, seeing as how that was an integral part of the Ultramarine background for over a decade, and how well known they are for having been the largest Legion. The Dark Angels? Not known for having been the largest Legion.

 

 

If you are looking at the actual time span it takes to turn an aspirant into a marine then insanguination and the blooding of the BA & SW take a lot less time than the method used by the Ultras.

Although high casualty rates would perhaps more than offset any advantage of a faster transformation. :)

 

But why are we even debating this? The background is not ambiguous about this one.

[Epistolary Exander]

The entire point of how the Ultras had supperior methods in how to bring new marines into their ranks is kind of moot given other material. In Fallen Angels it states that the DA have the most efficient recruitment process of all the legions.

What an odd thing of a Black Library novel to claim, seeing as how that was an integral part of the Ultramarine background for over a decade, and how well known they are for having been the largest Legion. The Dark Angels? Not known for having been the largest Legion.

 

The DA have never been said to be the largest legion (except when they were the only legion and so they were by default), just they had the most efficient recruitment process.

[Legatus]

The DA have never been said to be the largest legion (except when they were the only legion and so they were by default), just they had the most efficient recruitment process.

You see the problem?

 

Logic aside, the Ultramarines have been described as having grown thanks to the way their recruitment was organised in several editions of their background. In "Fallen Angels", one character subjectively asserts that the Dark Angels have the fastest and most efficient recruitment procedures. You go ahead and believe the account you prefer. But when someone asks why the Ultramarines have become the largest Legion, then I figure giving him the answer given in their background description is quite suitable.

[Epistolary Exander]

The DA have never been said to be the largest legion (except when they were the only legion and so they were by default), just they had the most efficient recruitment process.

You see the problem?

 

Logic aside, the Ultramarines have been described as having grown thanks to the way their recruitment was organised in several editions of their background. In "Fallen Angels", one character subjectively asserts that the Dark Angels have the fastest and most efficient recruitment procedures. You go ahead and believe the account you prefer. But when someone asks why the Ultramarines have become the largest Legion, then I figure giving him the answer given in their background description is quite suitable.

 

Yea it would suggest that the DA would be the largest legion due to how efficient they are.

 

i was only pointing out the case for UM having the most efficient recruitment process may not be so cut and dry.

[Legatus]

To be fair, the Ultramarines background does not say that they had the "most efficient" recruitment procedures. It is merley mentioned that their recruitment procedures were partly responsible for them becoming the largest Legion.

[Gree]

Hmmm by "willing to provide" do you mean throw a strop when other Legion's didn't perform like his? As for Alpharius, it is implied that it was Guilliman that started a heated argument, berating his brother for "wasting time and bolt shells" when the Alpha Legion captured a world with only a handfull of casualties; because everyone knows victory without deaths means no cake on Macragge.

 

They already had a dicussion before Tesserata actually.

 

Alpharius did not seek glory or honours for himself, and rarely attended victory celebrations. Consequently, he never spent much time with the other Primarch's and it was many years before he met all of them. His first encounter with Roboute Guilliman of the Ultramarines was reputedly strained. Guilliman believed in rigid structure and hierarchy, and had a firm battle doctrine that his legion never wavered from. He was in the process of documenting the 'correct' tactics and operation of a Space Marine force, tried and tested during his long years of command, and suggested that the young Alpha Legion should adopt this 'codex' behaviour. However, this attitude was anathema to Alpharius' belief in initiative and adaptability, and a heated debate over tactics and ideology ensued. When it became clear that Alpharius would not bow to his experience and superiority, Guilliman pointed out the thousands of victories and battle honours his legion had won, and told his younger brother that he could never hope to compare.

[The 13th Goat]

Instead of taking the world with little collateral damage, the Alpha Legion deliberately arranged it so that the fighting would be heavier than it would have needed to have been. The usual approach, as suggested by the enquiry posed after the battle, would have been to quickly seize the capital city, and not even allow the defenders to consolidate their forces. That way the capital city could have remained relatively unharmed, and it would not have been necessary to decimate 90% of the planet's defense forces to achieve victory. What the Alpha Legion did was to allow the enemy force to assemble, just so they could prove their prowess. In the subsequent heavy fighting the city and the defense forces suffered heavy damage. That Alpharis did all of that not out of some tactical considerations but just to prove his Legions capabilities was apparently also seen as unethical conduct. It took the Night Lords going on a rampage through the Imperium to divert attention away from this incident. This was by no means Guilliman's isolated complaint. His was merely one comment that was cited in the description.

 

You did back it up, and I'll concede that point.

 

 

Not in the Index Astartes article, though.

 

Partially why I don't think this debate is gonna go anywhere, because apparently if GW don't republish the IA's you won't consider any of the current cannon as valid. Again, THE IA'S ARE OUT OF DATE! :P

 

 

But they see themselves as generals, not civil architects. Creating a trade and supply network is also more a question of logistics, not tactics. Apparently, most Legions were satisfied with the recruitment techniques handed over to them by the Imperial military. And it is not like that did not do the job. The way Guilliman had organised his supplies and reinforcements just proved to be more efficient than that.

 

I feel this point may be a miss understanding; yes Guilliman was good at playing economist, and it no doubt helped him is some way. But my point is it has nothing to do with the size of his Legion.

 

 

I believe Aaron Dembsky-Bowden when he says that he was just having a bit of fun when he had some of his Word Bearer characters ramble about that, and did not really meant it as any kind of shocking revelation.

 

I know, but for the sake of argument I had to mention it before someone else chimed in. :P

 

 

Well, the initial issue was that it had been claimed that the Ultramarines' quality was their size, to which I had replied that their size was merely the result of their actual qualities. They became so big because of their successes. They were not successful because of their size. I don't think that has been retconned yet, and I am not holding my breath that it will be.

 

A fair and valid point. But it doesn't make the Ultra's the best. :)

 

My reply that it would have been Alpharius who would have to be blamed for the debate turning heated is based on the background that both Guilliman and Alpharius had at the time the Index Astartes article had been written. Even if Alpharius' character is completely changed in later publications, that will not change that at the time the Index Astartes article had been written he was still the competetive youngest son who strived to prove himself against his brothers, so their actions in that article have to be judged accordingly.

 

Again, that's why you should read the new books. The "every book is cannon" rule has to be used with a pinch of common sense; newer books that provide fresh information from a first person stand point should be considered an accurate account of those events, given that the IA's were canonically written some 10'000 after the event by some scribe in the Imperium.

 

 

The entire point of how the Ultras had supperior methods in how to bring new marines into their ranks is kind of moot given other material. In Fallen Angels it states that the DA have the most efficient recruitment process of all the legions.

What an odd thing of a Black Library novel to claim, seeing as how that was an integral part of the Ultramarine background for over a decade, and how well known they are for having been the largest Legion. The Dark Angels? Not known for having been the largest Legion.

 

And what makes that statement non-canon? Its a BL book, designed to shed light on a chapter.

 

If you are looking at the actual time span it takes to turn an aspirant into a marine then insanguination and the blooding of the BA & SW take a lot less time than the method used by the Ultras.

Although high casualty rates would perhaps more than offset any advantage of a faster transformation. ;)

 

But why are we even debating this? The background is not ambiguous about this one.

 

By the simple fact we can bring other material to bear (and most of that more recent than your sources), I'd say this is a fair point to make.

 

 

When it became clear that Alpharius would not bow to his experience and superiority, Guilliman pointed out the thousands of victories and battle honours his legion had won, and told his younger brother that he could never hope to compare.

 

You say ending a heated debate, I say strop....

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I believe Aaron Dembsky-Bowden when he says that he was just having a bit of fun when he had some of his Word Bearer characters ramble about that, and did not really meant it as any kind of shocking revelation.

 

I'm doing this for the reason that I never get to correct you..

 

It's Dembski-Bowden

 

:P

[Brother Captain Kezef]

when you get down to it, the Ultras where the largest legion because they had the largest pool of recruits, it's that simple. Other legions had more effecient systems, producing (arguably) better astartes, but almost all legions recruited from one homeworld.

 

It's like comparing the British army with the American army. The British spend more time on training but the Americans have a significantly larger recruitment base.

[Legatus]

The 13th Goat:

 

Not in the Index Astartes article, though.

Partially why I don't think this debate is gonna go anywhere, because apparently if GW don't republish the IA's you won't consider any of the current cannon as valid. Again, THE IA'S ARE OUT OF DATE! ^_^

Again, that's why you should read the new books. The "every book is cannon" rule has to be used with a pinch of common sense; newer books that provide fresh information from a first person stand point should be considered an accurate account of those events, given that the IA's were canonically written some 10'000 after the event by some scribe in the Imperium.

I insinst that the actions that are attributed to characters in a publication have to be interpreted according to the character traits said characters were supposedly having at that point.

 

I.e. the Index Astartes Alpha Legion states that it came to a heated debate between Guilliman and Alpharius, without specifying who may be to blame for that. The Index startes article was written and released in 2003 during 3rd Edition, so this were the 3rd Edition Guilliman and the 3rd Edition Alpharius acting in that story. If you want to make any assumptions as to who of them likely caused the discussion to get heated, then you have to assume that they are their 3rd Edition personas. You cannot then take a retconned and completely revamped Alpharius that had only just been established in 2008 and assert that it was really this Alpharius who is being described in that story. It is not. That was not the Alpharius Graham Davey wrote about in 2003.

 

 

Well, the initial issue was that it had been claimed that the Ultramarines' quality was their size, to which I had replied that their size was merely the result of their actual qualities. They became so big because of their successes. They were not successful because of their size. I don't think that has been retconned yet, and I am not holding my breath that it will be.

A fair and valid point. But it doesn't make the Ultra's the best. :)

My initial reply was to this post #174, which had claimed that where other Legions are wolf like, stealthy or expert craftsmen, the trait of the Ultramarines was simply being big. It had nothing to do with being "the best".

 

 

What an odd thing of a Black Library novel to claim, seeing as how that was an integral part of the Ultramarine background for over a decade, and how well known they are for having been the largest Legion. The Dark Angels? Not known for having been the largest Legion.

And what makes that statement non-canon? Its a BL book, designed to shed light on a chapter.

I'm not saying it isn't canon. I'm saying it makes no sense.

 

 

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Captain Juan Juarez: Oops, my mistake. That's what you get for writing "A D-B" all the time. :)

 

 

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Brother Captain Kezef:

 

when you get down to it, the Ultras where the largest legion because they had the largest pool of recruits, it's that simple.

A man is entitled to his opinion and all that. But when the background explains in several places why the Ultramarines got so big, then opinions can be wrong.

[The 13th Goat]

I insinst that the actions that are attributed to characters in a publication have to be interpreted according to the character traits said characters were supposedly having at that point.

 

I.e. the Index Astartes Alpha Legion states that it came to a heated debate between Guilliman and Alpharius, without specifying who may be to blame for that. The Index startes article was written and released in 2003 during 3rd Edition, so this were the 3rd Edition Guilliman and the 3rd Edition Alpharius acting in that story. If you want to make any assumptions as to who of them likely caused the discussion to get heated, then you have to assume that they are their 3rd Edition personas. You cannot then take a retconned and completely revamped Alpharius that had only just been established in 2008 and assert that it was really this Alpharius who is being described in that story. It is not. That was not the Alpharius Graham Davey wrote about in 2003.

 

Which means the IA is out of date, and as the most current version of Alpharius is nothing like his 2003 persona.

 

Example:

 

I don't play Warhammer 40'000 with my Iron Warriors army having a Basalisk but 4th edition units; They the tanks that in 3rd edition, but other players will (usually) just say no use 4th only.

 

Now I know this is fluff, which is slightly different, but by completely ignoring the new Alpharius and much of the newer canon your depriving yourself of firstly great stories and secondly a greater depth of understanding of what actually transpired during those years. Guiliman and Alpharius did have that debate (Alpharius even mentions it in Legion) but from reading the stories that include the Primarch I doubt it was something as childish as "look at Me! See what I can do!" that caused the debate to get heated.

[Legatus]

Which means the IA is out of date, and as the most current version of Alpharius is nothing like his 2003 persona.

You do realize that my entire argument about that Index Astartes was meant to point out why you couldn't argue that the Index Astartes of the Alpha Legion incriminates Guilliman?

 

IIRC in Legion it was mainly the underhandes conduct of the Alpha Legion which was criticised by Guilliman, and their dispute was not so much about combat doctrine.