My legion is better than yours

[The 13th Goat]

You do realize that my entire argument about that Index Astartes was meant to point out why you couldn't argue that the Index Astartes of the Alpha Legion incriminates Guilliman?

 

Oh, your right there. But my point is the current Alpharius doesn't match with the IA version, so the IA is wrong.

 

IIRC in Legion it was mainly the underhandes conduct of the Alpha Legion which was criticised by Guilliman, and their dispute was not so much about combat doctrine.

 

I can't remember what he says, have you read Legion?

[Gree]

Which means the IA is out of date, and as the most current version of Alpharius is nothing like his 2003 persona.

You do realize that my entire argument about that Index Astartes was meant to point out why you couldn't argue that the Index Astartes of the Alpha Legion incriminates Guilliman?

 

I guess Guilliman’s behaviors in IA Alpha Legion could be rationalized in certain ways, but I think the obvious intention of the author was to make Alpharius into the likable underdog and Guilliman into the stuffy jerk. That’s how most players in my experience tend to view it and largely what forms the popular opinion of Guilliman’s nature for many players.

[Legatus]

IIRC in Legion it was mainly the underhandes conduct of the Alpha Legion which was criticised by Guilliman, and their dispute was not so much about combat doctrine.

I can't remember what he says, have you read Legion?

I have not read it, but I have browsed it for references to Guilliman or the Ultramarines.

 

"Namatjira frowned. 'They're not like the other Legions. They don't fight like the other Legions. They practise war in the most insidious way. Guilliman has said to me, on more than one occasion, that he finds their methods underhanded and discreditable. They are sly and devious, and unneccessarily opaque.'"

 

"'Civil war in the Imperium is an impossibility,' said Alpharius, walking forwards to join them. 'It simply could not happen. The Emperor's plan is---'

'Utopian,' Grammaticus cut in and finished boldly, 'and therefore predictable to fall short of its goals. Please. The Alpha Legion is the most pragmatic and subtle of all the Legions. You are not blinded by Imperial dogma like the others, You are not hidebound by Guilliman's ideals of conduct, or rooted in the frenzied tribal traditions like Russ's warriors, nor are you stalwart lapdogs like Dorn's famous men, or berserk automatons like Angrons monsters. You think for yourselves!'"

 

Edit: typos, as usual.

[The 13th Goat]

2The Alpha Legion is the most pragmatic and subtle of all the Legions. You are not blinded by Imperial dogma like the others, You are not hidebound by Guilliman's ideals of conduct, or rooted in the frenzied tribal traditions like Russ's warriors, nor are you stalwart lapdogs like Dorn's famous men, or berserk automatons like Angrons monsters. You thin for yourselves!'"

 

And indeed, Alpharius was the thinnest of all the Primarchs, but it was his own doing, and not the Emperor or Guiliman that made him lean... :P

[Legatus]

Pfsh. At least that post wasn't riddled with "tehs"...

[The 13th Goat]

I actually heard from a GW source was one of the missing primarch's was destroyed for his dyslexia; ended up calling his legion something offensive to the Holy Emperor's ears, so they were sent Guilliman and he was imprisioned on Mars. He was known as Celestrian, but he could never read it so he just ended up as C-Tan.... ^_^

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

The entire point of how the Ultras had supperior methods in how to bring new marines into their ranks is kind of moot given other material. In Fallen Angels it states that the DA have the most efficient recruitment process of all the legions.

What an odd thing of a Black Library novel to claim, seeing as how that was an integral part of the Ultramarine background for over a decade, and how well known they are for having been the largest Legion. The Dark Angels? Not known for having been the largest Legion.

Minor nitpick on this one. Most effecient recruiting process =/= largest legion. It just means they get the recruits through with less effort and less time, and maximises what they do use. With the same amount of recruits in the same time span, it would have the legion grow faster than any other, but once it reached the point of maximum capacity (as there are only so many recruits that come through per year) the other legions would begin to catch up.

 

The problem is that each legion didn't have the same amount of recruits. The Ultramarines recruited from a star system. Everyone else recruited from a world. Therefore, while the Dark Angels effeciency per world might be twice that of the Ultramarines, (2X=Y) all the Ultramarines need is three worlds to recruit from (3X) and they will grow faster (3X>2X).

 

Simples, no? :P

[No Foes Remain]

The problem is that each legion didn't have the same amount of recruits. The Ultramarines recruited from a star system. Everyone else recruited from a world. Therefore, while the Dark Angels effeciency per world might be twice that of the Ultramarines, (2X=Y) all the Ultramarines need is three worlds to recruit from (3X) and they will grow faster (3X>2X).

 

Simples, no? :P

Your math is impeccable. And it does make sense for the Ultras to be large, as you said, they have a star system while everyone else has one world.

[Conn Eremon]

The Ultramarines recruited from a star system. Everyone else recruited from a world.

 

But what about those who didn't have one world? World Eaters and the Alpha Legions didn't have a known world to recruit from. It's possible they only recruited from Terra, though, but we don't exactly know. The Word Bearers of course did recruit from other worlds when they were growing, and grow they definitely did. It's possible that the Alpha Legion and World Eaters recruited in a similar manner, not having their own world to do so from. But there's also the Imperial Fists. If all the Legions recruited from their homelands, then the Imperial Fists had more than one world as well, since Dorn was Emperor over his own collection of worlds before his father showed up.

 

So I'm not entirely sure that the Ultramarines entire claim to higher numbers is due to having multiple recruiting worlds, since they were three times bigger than any other Legion and yet weren't the only Legion to have multiple recruiting worlds. They had to have had something else going for them.

 

Personally, I just assume it's a mixture. Dark Angels had the most efficient, sure, but that was when Luther was exiled back to Caliban, and he was only there for a minor portion of the Crusade, the very last minor portion to be exact, and the last few Chapters weren't sent off to join the Legion but were kept with Luther to become the Fallen. Before that, it's possible that Guilliman and the Ultramarines were the most efficient. The Dark Angels surpassed them in recruitment efficiency, but didn't have enough time to surpass them numerically. But a combination of having either the most or one of the most recruiting efficiency with having multiple recruiting worlds created this bloated Legion. If I recall correctly, Luther states that he does it all in a fifth of the time once he fully gets in the swing of things. So 5x=Y at their peak. Everyone else is generally 1X=Y. Guilliman could very well have been 2X=Y to 3X=Y, for each world, operating at a steady, high efficiency pace. Considering it's more than one or two worlds, that keeps them ahead of the Dark Angels even at their peak.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

The Ultramarines recruited from a star system. Everyone else recruited from a world.

 

But what about those who didn't have one world? World Eaters and the Alpha Legions didn't have a known world to recruit from. It's possible they only recruited from Terra, though, but we don't exactly know. The Word Bearers of course did recruit from other worlds when they were growing, and grow they definitely did. It's possible that the Alpha Legion and World Eaters recruited in a similar manner, not having their own world to do so from. But there's also the Imperial Fists. If all the Legions recruited from their homelands, then the Imperial Fists had more than one world as well, since Dorn was Emperor over his own collection of worlds before his father showed up.

 

So I'm not entirely sure that the Ultramarines entire claim to higher numbers is due to having multiple recruiting worlds, since they were three times bigger than any other Legion and yet weren't the only Legion to have multiple recruiting worlds. They had to have had something else going for them.

 

Personally, I just assume it's a mixture. Dark Angels had the most efficient, sure, but that was when Luther was exiled back to Caliban, and he was only there for a minor portion of the Crusade, the very last minor portion to be exact, and the last few Chapters weren't sent off to join the Legion but were kept with Luther to become the Fallen. Before that, it's possible that Guilliman and the Ultramarines were the most efficient. The Dark Angels surpassed them in recruitment efficiency, but didn't have enough time to surpass them numerically. But a combination of having either the most or one of the most recruiting efficiency with having multiple recruiting worlds created this bloated Legion. If I recall correctly, Luther states that he does it all in a fifth of the time once he fully gets in the swing of things. So 5x=Y at their peak. Everyone else is generally 1X=Y. Guilliman could very well have been 2X=Y to 3X=Y, for each world, operating at a steady, high efficiency pace. Considering it's more than one or two worlds, that keeps them ahead of the Dark Angels even at their peak.

Aye, agree with all of the above. To go for the other multiple recruiting worlds legions in 'hard*' math -

 

Say WE have five worlds, and their effeciency rate is X (5X recruits). Ultramarines also have five worlds in this example, but their effeciency rate is Y, and Y = 3X (5Y recruits = 15X recruits). Ultramarines get this one. The IF, however, had a mini empire of eight worlds, and are pretty effecient as well, about 1.5X (12X recruits).

 

Now, WE, UM, and IF all have large legions, and a lot of recruits. The DA still have their effeciency bringing them to 5X - which is still better per world effeciency than any other legion - but are outmatched by the IF, WE, and UM, and each of those have their own variable sizes of recruiting pools and effeciency, leading to different growth rates (shocker ^_^ )

 

*It can't be that hard, I'm doing it -_-

[Marshal Rohr]

Does the Dark Angel recruitment methods count as more effective since HALF OF THEM BETRAYED THE EMPEROR.

[Epistolary Exander]

The Ultramarines recruited from a star system. Everyone else recruited from a world.

 

But what about those who didn't have one world? World Eaters and the Alpha Legions didn't have a known world to recruit from. It's possible they only recruited from Terra, though, but we don't exactly know. The Word Bearers of course did recruit from other worlds when they were growing, and grow they definitely did. It's possible that the Alpha Legion and World Eaters recruited in a similar manner, not having their own world to do so from. But there's also the Imperial Fists. If all the Legions recruited from their homelands, then the Imperial Fists had more than one world as well, since Dorn was Emperor over his own collection of worlds before his father showed up.

 

So I'm not entirely sure that the Ultramarines entire claim to higher numbers is due to having multiple recruiting worlds, since they were three times bigger than any other Legion and yet weren't the only Legion to have multiple recruiting worlds. They had to have had something else going for them.

 

Personally, I just assume it's a mixture. Dark Angels had the most efficient, sure, but that was when Luther was exiled back to Caliban, and he was only there for a minor portion of the Crusade, the very last minor portion to be exact, and the last few Chapters weren't sent off to join the Legion but were kept with Luther to become the Fallen. Before that, it's possible that Guilliman and the Ultramarines were the most efficient. The Dark Angels surpassed them in recruitment efficiency, but didn't have enough time to surpass them numerically. But a combination of having either the most or one of the most recruiting efficiency with having multiple recruiting worlds created this bloated Legion. If I recall correctly, Luther states that he does it all in a fifth of the time once he fully gets in the swing of things. So 5x=Y at their peak. Everyone else is generally 1X=Y. Guilliman could very well have been 2X=Y to 3X=Y, for each world, operating at a steady, high efficiency pace. Considering it's more than one or two worlds, that keeps them ahead of the Dark Angels even at their peak.

Aye, agree with all of the above. To go for the other multiple recruiting worlds legions in 'hard*' math -

 

Say WE have five worlds, and their effeciency rate is X (5X recruits). Ultramarines also have five worlds in this example, but their effeciency rate is Y, and Y = 3X (5Y recruits = 15X recruits). Ultramarines get this one. The IF, however, had a mini empire of eight worlds, and are pretty effecient as well, about 1.5X (12X recruits).

 

Now, WE, UM, and IF all have large legions, and a lot of recruits. The DA still have their effeciency bringing them to 5X - which is still better per world effeciency than any other legion - but are outmatched by the IF, WE, and UM, and each of those have their own variable sizes of recruiting pools and effeciency, leading to different growth rates (shocker :) )

 

*It can't be that hard, I'm doing it :huh:

 

Yea no one has been arguing against this fact for atleast a couple of days. lol

[Legatus]

As I said, the Ultramarines background does not actually says that their recruitment methods were the most efficient of all the Legions. Their recruitment methods are merely presented as one of the reasons for why they grew to be the largest Legions. If the Dark Angels had more efficient recruitment methods, then there are obviously reasons why the Dark Angels are never presented as one of the largest Legions.

 

(Btw, recruiting from nearby worlds as well as from the homeworld? A good way to improve recruitment. :huh: )

[eyeslikethunder]

Has not the Ultramarine empire been reconned to 500 worlds now in the HH period anyway

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Does the Dark Angel recruitment methods count as more effective since HALF OF THEM BETRAYED THE EMPEROR.

Twice as effective then :)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

2The Alpha Legion is the most pragmatic and subtle of all the Legions. You are not blinded by Imperial dogma like the others, You are not hidebound by Guilliman's ideals of conduct, or rooted in the frenzied tribal traditions like Russ's warriors, nor are you stalwart lapdogs like Dorn's famous men, or berserk automatons like Angrons monsters. You thin for yourselves!'"

 

And indeed, Alpharius was the thinnest of all the Primarchs, but it was his own doing, and not the Emperor or Guiliman that made him lean... :D

 

:)

 

Funny funny.

 

+++

 

The 13th Goat, the quote in your sig, where is it from?

[Billuriye]

After "Know no Fear", it's safe to assume that Ultramarines had the most efficient recruitment system thanks to Guilliman. That guy is a walking optimizer. In fact that's his mojo, like Horus being the most charismatic, Perturabo being the tech guy etc.

[Droma]

Know No Feat puts the Ultramarines in charge of an empire of 500 worlds. That is several orders of magnitude larger than any other legion. Whether or not the ultramarines training and indoctrination methods were better than any other legion is a moot point. They simply had way more recruits as well as the means to produce their own arms and armor for those recruits. Not needing to rely on mars for the creation of your fleets and wargear makes a huge difference in how easily you can create and maintain new marines.

[The 13th Goat]

The 13th Goat, the quote in your sig, where is it from?

 

AD-B posts some snipits of encounters he is writing on his own Facebook Page. Don't know where this precise quote will be used, but I think its safe to say he'll covering any Night Lord novel.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

The 13th Goat, the quote in your sig, where is it from?

 

AD-B posts some snipits of encounters he is writing on his own Facebook Page. Don't know where this precise quote will be used, but I think its safe to say he'll covering any Night Lord novel.

 

Thank you ^_^

[Lord Ragnarok]

This topic is long and well off topic. After so many pages there should be answered and if not, it cannot be answered.