Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons

[Crimson Hawk]

S I'm thinking of running a pre-heresy 1k sons, themed around their last stand on Prospero. So, should I use-

C:SM( Ahriman counts as Tigirius

C:CSM (for squads led by psykers & Ahriman)

C:SW(For being able to use up to 3 rune preists and Njal as Ahriman

C:BA (Psycic Dreads and Ahriman as Mephy)

C:GK( For Uber Librarians, and everyone's a psyker, but unfluffy

The Tyrant's Legion (For the mix of Tsons and Spireguard, but can TL take Libbies?)

So, hit me.

[Ethrion]

Try using these rules to represent pre-heresy Thousand Sons. The basis is the Space Marines codex, then you apply the relevant legion attributes.

 

http://www.tempusfugitives.co.uk/pdf/40k/A...20Expansion.pdf

[Crimson Hawk]

I know (and love) the TF rules, and that is what I would use normally, but it's always good to have a backup ruleset, as the TF rules are much less pick-up-and-play than GW rules.

A side note, I can't really afford a full- on FW army, so does anyone have any (buget) ways to churn out the rank and file? I understand a pre-heresy army is not a cheap option, but still, some alternatives would be ideal.

[paulewaug]

For what it is worth, TF rules aside, I think C:SM or C:CSM should have you covered well.

 

In fact, I imagine there should be no real problem building the model army or being able to use either of the 2 books as desired.

 

CSM you could use actual Ahriman, I think "counts as Tigirius" should work just fine also.

 

Sorcerers can be Sorcerer models and "counts as Devastators/Obliterators" as needed, seems to me I've seen that pop up a few times before.

 

Using the Loyalist list will probably help give them more of the "not fallen to Chaos (yet)" feel you might want?

 

As to models, there seem to be many articles on the web for how to make some conversions of regular models by filling parts down and adding some bits or green stuff on then.

 

I've really been enjoying all the fluffy goodness the (pre)Heresy Era has to offer, so I'll be looking forward to seeing how this turns out for you!

 

Cheers.

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

Codex: Space Marines.

 

Tactical Squad sergeants all set up with:

 

Powerweapon

Combi-Plasma or Combi-Flamer

Teleport Homer

 

An extra HQ libby with Force Dome for Kine Shields and Null Zone to give you that Defensive flavor that Codex: Chaos Space Marines can't.

[Kierdale]

I remember a few months back it seemed a lot of people were talking about using C:GK for Thousand Sons.

Personally I just use C:SM. As paulewaug said, it helps give a still-good-guys feel.

 

From a modelling PoV green stuff and a bit of cutting and filing will do a lot. Parts from the Tomb Kings kits can add an Egyptian look.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Maximini's bits are your friend...

The tempus rules are nice, and I think the best but would go for C:SM If I had to use a codex.

[Mykra]

I have been thinking about this myself as a fun side project. I would say it comes down to two options:

 

*Grey Knights

 

I had thought to use a librarian as the leader and with all the nice +physical stuff he could do like MoH or QS, he'd make a perfect Pavoni. The Purifiers seemed no-brainers as the Pyrae, what with all the Human Torch action going on. I actually thought the Strike Squads could be used as a good melting pot of the cults thanks to normal Grey Knight abilities and Warp Quake; You could have Athanean and Corvidae reading minds and futures telling where the enemy units were going to land, Raptora kinetically charging the bolt-shells, Pavoni weaving a squad-spell to increase the strength of their unit. Terminators and Paladins would be the Scarab Guard.

 

I really liked the idea of adding cult symbols to the models as well. From what I could find from all the books and drawings they were: Athanean - Third Eye Symbol, Corvidae - Black Raven Head, Pavoni - Colorful Feather, Pyrae - Scarlet Phoenix, Raptora - Outline of a body with a Kine Shield overhead; (Like the LucasArts symbol). I had to make that one up, couldn't find anything on the Raptora's markings.

 

Inquisitors and Assassins work incredibly well as the Hidden Ones/Scout Auxilia, the Inquisitorial Warbands are the Prospero Spireguard, the Dreadnoughts can be the Cataphract robots, and the Dreadknight can be the Seraphis Dreadnought. Hell, you can even use the Stormraven as a Stormhawk-esque vehicle.

 

 

*Chaos Marine Codex

 

It can work well for the TS. Instead of each marine being psychically charged, think of them focusing the power into the leader - i.e. the Aspiring Sorc - who then unleashes the spell for them. Perhaps a TS vet leading younger troops who don't have mastery of their powers quite yet.

 

You can have psyker lords or terminator lords, so you can cover your bases with any of the cult psykers as leaders or a high-ranking scarab guard leading the charge. Chaos Terminators are of course the Scarab Guard, and you can give them various godly marks and explain them off as different psychic powers (Many of the marks bonus' would make perfect sense for a Pavoni). Your TS units can cover a lot of the cults thanks to the flexibility of powers available to the sorc, and the improved shooting/toughness of the troop type ( that 4++ save could be Kine Shields, or the improved bolt rounds are just well placed shots thanks to Athanean visions or Raptora overcharging the bullets, etc...). Obliterators can make really awesome Cataphract robots.

 

There are other units you can use your imagination and fit into the army list if you like. There's no reason the pre-heresy army has to be at it's highest ebb, so you can use Daemons and Daemon princes showing the tutelary's warping their 'masters' during combat. Or perhaps Spireguard as the summoned Daemons being teleported in by the Sons, or Chaos bikers as the Heresy TS Jetbikes, etc..., etc...

 

 

One thing to consider is that whenever a new Codex hits, do you want to continue them using Grey Knight rules, or TS rules? Just because you build them with GK rules doesn't mean you can't use them with Chaos rules when a better book lands, there just will be some conversion needed at that time, and some units (Like the Stormraven) will have to be shelved...

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

..whenever a new Codex hits, do you want to continue them using Grey Knight rules, or TS rules? Just because you build them with GK rules doesn't mean you can't use them with Chaos rules when a better book lands, there just will be some conversion needed at that time, and some units (Like the Stormraven) will have to be shelved...

 

This is why I am against using a codex other than C:CSM to represent pre-heresy legions. A very good point indeed, sir.

[Xenith]

Use codex CSM.

[Crimson Hawk]

There's a new Psykic Dicipline in town- Threadomancy!

With all the new rules for disciplines and allies in 6th, this project is finally getting attention. So, here is my list, using C:SM and C:GK

 

HQ

 

Ahzek Ahriman (Tigirius)......230 points

Captan T'Kar (Epistolary Librarian using Telekenisis)......150 points

Spireguard Captain Vithrada* (Inquisitor with Force Weapon using Telepathy).....55 points

 

Elites

 

Pyrae Veteran Squad (Sternguard Veterans with 5 Combi-Flamers and a Power Weapon).....165 points

Brother Atum (Techmarine with Power Weapon and Combi-Plasma).....75 points

Spireguard Squad Vithrada*(Henchman Retinue including 10 Warrior Acolytes with bolters, Psyker and Servitor with Heavy Bolter).....70 points

 

Troops

 

Tactical Squad Ma'at (Power Weapon, Combi-Flamer, Flamer and Missile Launcher).....195 points

Tactical Squad Maddox (Power Weapon, Combi-Plasma, Plasmagun and Missile Launcher).....205 points

The Scarab Occult* (Grey Knight Terminator Squad with Incinerator and Brotherhood Banner).....225 points

Amon's Initiates (Scout Squad with Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks and Missile Launcher)....100 points

 

Heavy Support

 

Hammer of Tizca (Whirlwind)....85 points

Honoured Brother Sepharis* (Dreadnought with Assault Cannon and Heavy Flamer)

 

 

 

Fortification- Ageis Defense Line with Quad-Gun....85 points

 

*=Unit from Codex: Grey Knights

 

 

The Worm at the Heart of the Apple

Unfortunately, there is a problem. GK and SM are, for some reason, not Battle Brothers. Oh well, I guess I will just have to make do. Alternatively, I suppose I could drop the GK and make a more Spireguard-heavy army, what do you lads and lassies think?

 

Modelling The Army

Assuming I go ahead with this list, there are a few points to make about modelling;

 

1)Egypt-Lite: There's a quote in Battle of the Fang where the Sorceror remarks of his legion; "We have become caricatures of ourselves". My army is also themed around the picture on the cover of A Thousand Sons, where little Egyptian iconography. For this reason, although I have a phlenora of bits that are appropriate for it, I will keep the Egypt theme subtle, even on commanders.

 

2)Spireguard: I automatically thought of Mordians when I read the book, and although I've seen brilliant conversions for them across the web, I'll stick to my instincts. Sculpt some greatcoats on them, and tah-dah!

 

So that's it, feel free to shower me with accolades, or flame the :) out of me, I'm off to finally read 6th edition :tu:

[Fediuld]

I am currently gathering info required to make a Thousands Sons army at Heresy (and Pre-Herecy) Era and waiting the new CSM Codex.

 

I must say the rules in CSM Codex (current and probably next one out soon) complement the army and it's background. Of course so does vanilla SM. It all depends what someone wants to use.

GK army, is bit cheesy for my taste and too much CC that doesn't complement the fluff.

 

CMS rules, allow a Sorceress heavy army and AP3 bolters. Which means that we can to take at least 40 Marines to make use of the bolters and a big amount of sorcerers. There is no point to get 2 squads of 10 troops just for the sake of filling up the Troops choices, as usually happens.

 

Can also get real Ahriman and Sorcerer Lord. Also heavy weapon choices can use Land Raiders, Predators and Havoc Squads. And ofc Rhinos.

 

As for models, I believe a mix of vanilla marines & DA, with basic conversions and probably helmet replacements is more than enough. As long as plastic models are used, easy to convert. Same with vehicles, vanilla SM units that exist in CSM book work the same. Land Raider, Rhinos, Predator, Devastators -> Havocs, Techpriest/Librarians (with combat helmet on) -> Sorcerers.

 

And if you have a friend with 3d printer, can cheaply make you plastic helmets looking like the ones from the novel or the Collected Visions tome. And make your army tournament legal also :jaw:

[Crimson Hawk]

I am currently gathering info required to make a Thousands Sons army at Heresy (and Pre-Herecy) Era and waiting the new CSM Codex.

 

I must say the rules in CSM Codex (current and probably next one out soon) complement the army and it's background. Of course so does vanilla SM. It all depends what someone wants to use.

GK army, is bit cheesy for my taste and too much CC that doesn't complement the fluff.

 

CMS rules, allow a Sorceress heavy army and AP3 bolters. Which means that we can to take at least 40 Marines to make use of the bolters and a big amount of sorcerers. There is no point to get 2 squads of 10 troops just for the sake of filling up the Troops choices, as usually happens.

 

Can also get real Ahriman and Sorcerer Lord. Also heavy weapon choices can use Land Raiders, Predators and Havoc Squads. And ofc Rhinos.

I would use Chaos, but the current 'The Sorceror Commands' and SnP special rules leave a bad taste in my mouth, from a fluff perspective. I have decided to postpone the army for a few months, just to see what the new book will have, and if new Thousand Sons kits will be released

[Jolemai]

*If* I get around to doing this, I plan on running a Pre-Heresy force using C:GK and having the option to run a heresy/post-heresy force using C:CSM at larger numbers.

 

However I have my endless numbers of Blood Angels to finish...

[The Yncarne]

If you're running pre-heresy, then you should be playing Space Marines without some of the newer vehicles. If you're playing heresy era, then I think you could run either Space Marines or Chaos Space Marines, but IMO that doesn't work for Thousand Sons as they sat out most of the Heresy. Post-heresy, I think you have more options. If you want a Tzeentch focused list, then you'd want to run Chaos Space Marines, but if you want to run an Ahrimanite or sorcerer-themed list I could see Grey Knights or Space Marines being used.

 

I don't know how you could play anything other than space marines rules since the defining characteristics from the chaos codex don't apply to pre-heresy times. If you could run a sorcerer themed list in chaos space marines, that could be attractive, but the only sorcery type stuff is found in the HQs. If I had my druthers, I'd run space marines with an option to replace the sgt with a librarian in Elite slot units. Something similar to how chaplains and sanguinary priests are run in codex Blood Angels would also be cool. I think most of the other stuff like the societies from the BL books and unique units from them could be done with simple modeling and paint jobs.

 

GW's take on Thousand Sons is so frustrating. They follow the lord of change, but the troops don't change. Even most of the character types within the rules have little change or mutations. They didn't do much during the heresy due to the fall of Prospero and the heresy was more or less over by the time the Rubric was cast. While I haven't read any of the BL books, it seems like the time between the legion's involvement at the beginning of the heresy and what has become the canonical motif of the Thousand Sons remains shrouded in mystery. That mystery is always around the corner when thinking of a pre-heresy legion.

[Fediuld]

but IMO that doesn't work for Thousand Sons as they sat out most of the Heresy. Post-heresy

 

Thousand Sons were battling against the Space Wolves (including Sisters of Silence* & Legio Custodes) long before Horus started the incident on Istvaan III.

Let's not forget that the Emperor in person gave the order for Russ to attack. But the Emperor was already for years locked in his throne room, by the time Horus Herecy became known to Rogal Dorn. Of which he gave the order for the attack on Istvaan IV.

However the war on Prospero had just stop when the Alpha Legion fleet attacked the Space Wolves fleet on Prospero. Which was after the events on Istvaan IV. And as the Thousand Sons had left the planet at that time.

 

Next, we find the Thousand Sons on Terra, attacking the Royal Palace along with the rest of the Legions. And following the rest in the Eye of Terror after Horus death. Of which they went to the planet Tzeentch had prepared for them. And was waiting since the moment Magnus make the pact with him, stopping the mutation in the Legion (few thousand years ago).

 

And there, because of their existence in the Warp the mutation was uncontrollable, Ahriman cast his spell. (long time after too).

 

 

 

As for usage of SM book, is an alternative that will work. And according to the novel, on Heliosa they were deploying controllable combat robots. So an SM Techpriest with servitors, isn't that far away from fluff.

So all shooty army based on SM book will work.

 

But GK are close combat oriented. Furthest from the background of the Legion can only be done by using Space Wolves or Blood Angels rules

 

 

*Hence the Thousand Sons manage to lose against the Space Wolves on Prospero. Because of the Sisters of Silence ability to nullify psychic power in close proximity.

[elithren]

The Emperor gave the order for Russ to bring Magnus to him to stand trial. Horus changed the order to annihilate them.

[Fediuld]

(Friendly 'barter' follows :P )

Yes. But the Emperor gave to Russ a contingent of Sisters of Silence and Legio Custodes. Hardly a 'friendly' force to arrest Magnus.

 

Also what were the motives to give the order to Russ? Knowing that Russ and Magnus were already in pretty bad relationship, with Lorgar having saved a war between Thousand Sons and Space Wolves, not so long ago.

With Russ swearing revenge on Magnus? And lets not forget that Russ was the prime prosecutor at the Council of Nikea. Hardly any surrendering could happen.

 

But why arrest Magnus? Because he warned him about Horus betrayal? Ahh forgot, because he ruined, with the spell, his expansion to the warp. The Emperor merely was trying to find an excuse to plug Magnus like a battery on the Throne. Powering, for eternity, his engine to support his plans for expansion in the warp.

 

So DEATH to the FALSE Emperor. The Chaos Gods have proven themselves more trustworthy and honourable. ;)

[elithren]

Dunno man, Ahriman seems to have the right frame of mind and not putting his trust in Tzeentch or the Emperor.

[Fediuld]

I agree. Hence I will trust him leading my army :lol:

[space wolf]

This should be helpful to you. This guy made a very impressive army, and struggled with the same problems you do on his PH 1k sons.

 

1k Sons, Pre-Heresy by Proiteus

[Crimson Hawk]

This should be helpful to you. This guy made a very impressive army, and struggled with the same problems you do on his PH 1k sons.

 

1k Sons, Pre-Heresy by Proiteus

Yes, he was my inspiration, and one of the main reasons I got into this project.

[Excessus]

I have always liked the "normalcy" of: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.p...esy-15th-Legion

 

People tend to go "over-the-top" with 1k sons, whereas I find it was more the officers and leaders that had the more outlandish armour designs and decorations...

[Crimson Hawk]

I have always liked the "normalcy" of: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.p...esy-15th-Legion

 

People tend to go "over-the-top" with 1k sons, whereas I find it was more the officers and leaders that had the more outlandish armour designs and decorations...

Yeah, that's actually the sort of thing I'm trying to enamulate, except maybe a bit less Egyptian-esqe.

[space wolf]

This should be helpful to you. This guy made a very impressive army, and struggled with the same problems you do on his PH 1k sons.

 

1k Sons, Pre-Heresy by Proiteus

Yes, he was my inspiration, and one of the main reasons I got into this project.

 

DAMN! And here I was thinking, I had really helped you out :lol: