Shrike + infiltrating squad & new FAQ

[Brom MKIV]

So shrike + 10 terminators infiltrate, can they now choose to combat squad at the time of deployment? It appears so but id like to hear what others have to say...heres the faq reference:

 

"Q: When Infiltrating a unit of 10 Space Marines with

the Infiltrate special rule, can both Combat Squads be

deployed in different locations? In addition, does this

still only count as a single deployment? (p51)

A: Yes to both questions."

 

and Shrikes special rule for reference:

seen but remain unseen- "Shrike (and models in his squad)

benefit from the infiltrate special rule"

[JamesI]

I'm not sure they can combat squad as the half without shrike would lose the infiltrate special rule.

 

Odd situation.

[greatcrusade08]

i agree, they only have infilktrate becuase shrike grants it to any attached unit, if they combat squad, the half without shrike wouldnt have the infiltrate USR

[Gentlemanloser]

But they Combat Squad at deployment, and you deploy Infiltrators after normal deployment.

 

And at the time of Deployment, that can Infiltrate.

 

What do you do with the CS otherwise? Send it to reserves? Disaalow the unit from Combat Squadding?

[breng77]

YOu combat squad when the unit is deployed, not during the "deployment" phase. IF the rule was stated (similar to grey knight grand strategy) that Shrike Granted one unit the infiltrate special rule, then that unit could combat squad, and infiltrate. Since his rule says that he and the models in his squad, benefit, only one of the combat SQUADS, is his SQUAD. SO no splitting the unit.

[JamesI]

YOu combat squad when the unit is deployed, not during the "deployment" phase. IF the rule was stated (similar to grey knight grand strategy) that Shrike Granted one unit the infiltrate special rule, then that unit could combat squad, and infiltrate. Since his rule says that he and the models in his squad, benefit, only one of the combat SQUADS, is his SQUAD. SO no splitting the unit.

Said better than I said it. Thanks.

[DarkGuard]

Or deploy the unit normally? Or just don't combat squad it?

 

I agree with JamesI and GC08, the unit has infiltrate when Shrike is joined, if you combat squad them only half the unit has infiltrate. IMO that FAQ is there for 10 man Scout squads.

[Something Wycked]

Another issue not really addressed by RAW :)

 

This sort of has a similar outcome as Slingshotting; the action becomes illegal after the fact. Attempting to deploy the unit as combat squads through infiltration becomes illegal because one combat squad, now no longer part of Shrike's unit, no longer has Infiltrate.

[Gentlemanloser]

YOu combat squad when the unit is deployed

 

Yes, that's what I said. :)

 

not during the "deployment" phase.

 

Didn't mention a phase.

 

Deploying Infiltrators is done after normal deployment.

 

There is nothing to stop the Squad Combat Squadding at deloyment. They cannot now deploy normally, as that time has past.

 

So what do you do with them?

 

There is nothing to prevent then Combat Squadding when they deploy by infiltrate.

[greatcrusade08]

There is nothing to stop the Squad Combat Squadding at deloyment. They cannot now deploy normally, as that time has past.

 

So what do you do with them?

 

There is nothing to prevent then Combat Squadding when they deploy by infiltrate.

 

i think your drawing conclusions from incorrect logic..

 

the bottom line is that they cannot legally choose to combat squad if attached to shrike, becuase the half without shrike wouldnt then have infiltrate and would therefore be unable to deploy normally (its too late at this point).

of course there is alot of wiggle room for friendly agreements that the regular half could deploy normally, but RAW speaking once you get to the point of deploying infiltrators its too late to deploy regular units.

[breng77]

Sure there is, when you combat squad the half without shrike no longer has infiltrate, and cannot deploy. At which point you are cheating and lose the game. SO you disallow the unit from combat squading. I can see what you are saying but as soon a shrike is not longer in the squad they lose the infiltrate rule.

[Gentlemanloser]

But when you deploy them by Infiltrate, they still have the rule and are still part of shrikes unit.

 

It's only when you lace them on the table do you combat Squad.

 

By then, they're deployed.

[greatcrusade08]

But when you deploy them by Infiltrate, they still have the rule and are still part of shrikes unit.

 

It's only when you lace them on the table do you combat Squad.

 

By then, they're deployed.

 

actually no, its a catch 22.

they are not deployed until the models are placed, but the decision to combat squad must be made just before this otherwise they would have to be placed within 2" of each other as per deployment rules..

at the point they have finsished deploying they are two seperate units and not one.. like i said catch 22

 

the only real conclusion is that they arent permitted to combat squad legally

[Something Wycked]

the only real conclusion is that they arent permitted to combat squad legally

Basically, this. But a bit of a different angle.

 

If you permit Shrike's squad to Combat Squad, the half that Shrike is not attached to can no longer deploy via Infiltrate legally. Now what do you do? They haven't deployed normally, and now can't. They can't deploy via Infiltrate. They weren't declared as part of the Reserves, and can't be placed there. They can no longer be deployed legally at all. The rules break down.

 

Smarter, easier to just disallow them from combat squadding at all. :)

 

Edit: To clarify, Shrike's RAW kills deploying both squads. Shrike's RAW states any unit he is attached to has Infiltrate. The moment Combat Squads is declared, he is no longer attached to one of those units, and it no longer has Infiltrate, and may no longer be deployed legally.

[Brom MKIV]

Basically what something wycked said, the rule is removed after the effect has happened, which doesnt by definition make it illegal. Something like this:

 

You declare what units will infiltrate- at this point it is legal to put/declare shrike + 10 man unit will infiltrate

 

Next, after normal deployment is finished you deploy infiltrators. At this point also shrike + infiltrating unit is legal.

 

Per combat squad language:

"The decision to split the unit into combat squads, as well as which models go into each combat squad, must be made when the unit is deployed"... I stress 'when the unit is deployed' at some point after or during which one combat squad (without shrike) will no longer have infiltrate, however, the unit (which still counts as one deployment), is already deployed therefore losing infiltrate would be irrelevant as the squad would not be placed back in reserve and normal deployment has already been completed. right?

 

To further muddle this issue, how do you feel about the same situation except replacing inflitrate with outflank?

 

Edit- Not trying to stir dissension here, I only ask because in the absense of specific faq/errata my group will usually go with general consensus of the all knowing all seeing interweb.

[Squirrelloid]

Ok, Shrike is joined to them, they have infiltrate. We get to infiltrators.

 

They don't choose to combat squad until they are deployed - physically put on the table. They have infiltrate up until the point they have combat squadded. But once they're on the table it doesn't matter if they have infiltrate anymore or not, they had it *when* they were being placed.

 

I think they can combat squad. Once infiltrate goes away cause shrike isn't with the combat-squadded unit, well, it no longer matters, because infiltrate has absolutely no effect after models are already on the table.

 

Edit: Some clarity on the matter from GW would be nice, but I don't envision we'll get any from them considering how specific the scenario is.

[greatcrusade08]

but they are put on the table AFTER the choice to combat squad has been made.. your argument is false logic.

 

the rules are unclear becuase it says the decision to combat squad is made at the time of deployment, however game mechanics means the decision must be made just before you place them.

you cant place ten models, then decide you want to seperate 5 and then 'redeploy' those 5.. thats not how it works

 

in actual game mechanics the ten guys are off the board about to be placed and you point out the unit will combat squad, ast which point the teo seperate units are deployed on the board.

at this juncture the non attached unit doesnt have infiltrate and cannot deploy as infiltrators

[SeattleDV8]

You guy are missing an important part of the FAQ.

The Combat squad infilrating 'counts as a single deployment'.

No catch 22, you may deploy both as a'single deployment' with no problem.

[greatcrusade08]

You guy are missing an important part of the FAQ.

The Combat squad infilrating 'counts as a single deployment'.

No catch 22, you may deploy both as a'single deployment' with no problem.

 

which would work if both halves have the infiltrate USR, however they dont in this case..

one combat squad is 'loaned' the infiltrate USR, the other isnt

[SeattleDV8]

Yes, they do.

The FAQ states that they are treated as a single deployment which would grant both squads the infiltrate rule.

[Jehoel]

A single deployment of of 2 squads, only one of which has Shrike attached. Sorry SeattleDV8, still not legal.

[Squirrelloid]

A single deployment of of 2 squads, only one of which has Shrike attached. Sorry SeattleDV8, still not legal.

 

They aren't actually 2 squads until after they've deployed.

[greatcrusade08]

They aren't actually 2 squads until after they've deployed.

 

this seems like a circular argument..

if a unit infiltrates without Shrike attached then it is illegal after the fact.

 

player 1 "both combat squads are now deployed, 5 termies with shrike here, and the other 5 termies here"

player 2 "how did that 5 man squad infiltrate there?"

player 1 "becuase they have infiltrate through being atatched to shrike"

player 2 "they arent attached to shrike"

player 1 "they were during deployment"

player 2 "how?"

 

so i echo how can they be considered attached to shrike if they deploy seperate of him?

it is being attached to shrike that allows them to infiltrate, theres no getting around that point

[Jehoel]

A single deployment of of 2 squads, only one of which has Shrike attached. Sorry SeattleDV8, still not legal.

 

They aren't actually 2 squads until after they've deployed.

The moment that you separate them into 2 squads to place them apart from each other, they are 2 different squads.

 

You don't place Shrike and the 10 other models all next to each other on the board and then move 5 of the non Shrike models away from Shrike. You place them on the table separately as 2 different squads thus one doesn't have infiltrate and cannot deploy.

[SeattleDV8]

At the time they use 'infilrate' they are treated as the same unit that has Shrike in it.

They are a "single deployment" although they are placed in two seperate positions.

Once they have been placed they then become two units.

At that point it doesn't matter if they have the Infilrate rule, as they have been deployed legally.