greatcrusade08 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Ah but the unit doesnt have shrike attached until both the unit and shrike are deployed.. there was a thread a while ago that tried to claim it was illegal for shrike to infiltrate a unit becuase of this. again we come back to this point that if the unit is deployed without shrike attached then it has done so illegally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 That old argument, heh, although RAW at the time that one was corrected by FAQ. Basicly it was Shrike couldn't join the unit until they were deployed and therefore the unit didn't have 'infilrate' until they were joined, and could not be held back to infilrate. The timing was changed by BRB FAQ Q: If an Independent Character is going to begin agame joined to a unit when should this be done? (p48) A: You should nominate which Independent Characters are joining units at the start of deployment before you place any units on the board. Note that this should be done before you nominate which units are being held in Reserve, Deep Strike or are Outflanking etc. This is a different timing issue. Shrike joins a unit, giving them Infiltrate The entire unit is held back to Infiltrate. In the Infiltrate phase of deployment (more a part of deployment than a actual phase, feh you know what I mean) Shrikes unit deploys and uses the Combat Squad rule. At this point they are still a "single deployment". Both units still have the same rules. Once placed (in regard to the opponents models, 12" or 18") the infiltrate move for those units is over and the infiltrate rule has no effect on the rest of the game. The timing makes the placement legal. After being placed the infiltrate rule has no effect and doesn't matter at all to the unit without Shrike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 again not quite correct, an interpretation issue here methinks. A: You should nominate which Independent Charactersare joining units at the start of deployment before you place any units on the board. which is fine, you nominate that shrike will be joining a unit so that that unit qualifies to be held back for infiltrate.. however your not taking into account Shrikes own rule, which is the one at the heart of the matter. he only grants infiltrate to the models in the unit that hes "attached" to.. he can only be attached to a unit if hes deployed with them.. notifying an intent to deploy with a unit doesnt mean they are already attached (they cant be, they arent deployed yet) the rules say an Ic joins a unit by deploying within coherancy, the above FAQ is about intent not actual rules the argument that both combat squads have infiltrate is rediculous, since they have to be 'attached' to get the infiltrate rule.. if a unit deploys by infiltrate and hasnt attached to shrike then its illegal after the fact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Which is why the FAQ states they are a 'single deployment'. Shrike makes the Infiltrate possible, the Combat Squad is just riding on his coat tails so to speak. At the time of the Infiltrate they still have the same rules. You do agree that if the unit did not Combat squad it would be legal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Willy Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 This seems to be an argument over interpretation of the rules. I d say one would infiltrate the other would be in reserve though not sure if you can do that. But if someone pulled this in a game i probably wouldn't care cause it sounds like an interpretation that people would yell at me to prove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Which is why the FAQ states they are a 'single deployment'.Shrike makes the Infiltrate possible, the Combat Squad is just riding on his coat tails so to speak. At the time of the Infiltrate they still have the same rules. You do agree that if the unit did not Combat squad it would be legal? SeattleDV8, I'm following what you're saying, but I'm struggling with the notion that "single deployment" means anything other than exactly that- they're a single deployment choice in the deployment phase (whatever part of it that is). There's nothing in the FAQ that states/implies how deployment choices affect USR's granted by characters. You may read RAI into "single deployment" (as would I, I believe) but as far as RAW goes... To take your example to an extreme, does this mean that USR's granted by characters now apply to all units that are a "single deployment"? Can an entire IG platoon (a single deployment in DoW) get stealth from its commissar now? I know that you're saying infiltrate only affects deployment and has no later in-game effects, but my statement is the logical conclusion of your line of reasoning... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 This seems to be an argument over interpretation of the rules. Which makes this the appropriate place to discuss it, Heh d say one would infiltrate the other would be in reserve though not sure if you can do that. But if someone pulled this in a game i probably wouldn't care cause it sounds like an interpretation that people would yell at me to prove. No, that would be incorrect. SM FAQ Q: Can you take a Drop Pod with a 10-man squad andthen put a combat squad in it, deploying the other combat squad on the table, or leave it in reserve but not in the Drop Pod? (p69) A: No, because squads that are placed in reserve may not break down into combat squads. Combat Squad happens when deployed, units placed in reserve are not deployed. [I'm following what you're saying, but I'm struggling with the notion that "single deployment" means anything other than exactly that- they're a single deployment choice in the deployment phase (whatever part of it that is). That's actually very close to what I'm saying, The 'single deployment' works in the deployment of the Infiltrating unit(s). Once you are done deploying the unit that rule is done, there is no lasting effects. It only works when the unit is deployed, just like other rules that have certain times they can be used. If the unit is treated as a single deployment , even though it is two units, if it's legal to use the single unit then the Combat squaded unit is also legal to place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelloid Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Its not just that its a single deployment (imo the FAQ answer was actually unnecessary to this, although it adds clarity), Combat Squadding happens *as models are being placed on the table*, which means that they are still one squad up until models are hitting the table, and thus have infiltrate when you are choosing places to put them. Once you get to the infiltration 'phase' they are deploying 'as infiltrators', and nothing can change that. They are the *same unit* until they hit the table. After they've placed its totally irrelevant that one squad doesn't have infiltrate. They only had to have infiltrate to get to that 'phase' of deployment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I'm going to disagree. The Combat Squading unit would have to split before hitting the table. Without the FAQ making them 'count as' a single deployment the arguments given before against my points would stand and prevent the Combat Squading. Again, it's a matter of timing. In any case thats not the rules now, and doesn't really matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 The fact remains that one combat squad does not have Shrike attached to it. Shrike's RAW grant Infiltrate to units that he is attached to. Shrike's RAW do not grant Infiltrate to units he is not attached to. The combat squad without Shrike attached is deploying illegally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 the counts as a single deployment FAQ only clairifies deploying infiltrators when the enemy has infiltrators (roll off, then deploy a unit in turn) even if both shrikes combat squad and the non-shrike combat squad were said to explicitly deploy at the same microsecond wouldnt change the fact that one squad doesnt have shrike attached. it is the psysical presence of shrike that grants them infiltrate, as ive said many times the off unit would be deployed illegally when judged after the fact in the same way that stealth would only carry over to models in a particular combat squad, the same goes for infiltrate with shrike.. its the wording of his particular rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelloid Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 the counts as a single deployment FAQ only clairifies deploying infiltrators when the enemy has infiltrators (roll off, then deploy a unit in turn) even if both shrikes combat squad and the non-shrike combat squad were said to explicitly deploy at the same microsecond wouldnt change the fact that one squad doesnt have shrike attached. it is the psysical presence of shrike that grants them infiltrate, as ive said many times the off unit would be deployed illegally when judged after the fact in the same way that stealth would only carry over to models in a particular combat squad, the same goes for infiltrate with shrike.. its the wording of his particular rule. Why would you ever judge after the fact? The rules don't tell you to. It is permitted to infiltrate teh squad. It is permitted to *then* combat squad them. You've already passed the infiltrate check point. Afterwards is irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 So I called GW and they advised this will be added to the next FAQ update (for whatever thats worth haha). Locally my gaming group is mostly for the idea although one player is on the fence at the moment. After some in depth discussion regarding wording of combat squads and the FAQ, the majority of us have concluded that: -shrike and his unit have the infiltrate USR, a rule which is only relevant at the time of their deployment. -the decision to split a unit into combat squads occurs when they are deployed, meaning they are on the board and split all at once, anything else is reading more into an already ambiguously worded rule -both halves of a combat squaded unit are deployed simultaneously and count as a single deployment. -based on these conclusions infitrating and combat squading of shrikes unit is indeed allowed. To me the wording of the rules and the FAQ allow for this action to take place, since becoming 'illegal' after the action is completed is not by definition illegal but rather irrelevant. However, like most other powerful interactions in 40k, the gaming community immediately balks at the idea, based more on perceived brokenness rather than legality, similar to necrons board-wide dangerous terrain interactions or scouting gk interceptors etc. Since I play in a friendly environment I will simply ask my opponent how they feel. If they are inclined to go with this interpretation then I have a new option available. If not then I will concede the issue. Simple and fair. Thanks for your input brothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Friendly players and RAI save the day again :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I think we would all agree that a single deployment (Shrike+unit) is a legal infiltrate. The FAQ tells us that a combat squading unit infiltrating unit 'counts as' the single deployment. It doesn't matter in the least that it is two units at that point, it 'counts as' one. Once placed it's like Brom said, it's irrelevant how they got there. You only check when holding them for infiltrating and as you are deploying them. After that point in time what rules the unit has or doesn't have is moot. In both cases the unit either has the rule (when held for infiltrate) or 'counts as' it has the rule (when placed in play). Yes it seems a bit odd, but it is not breaking any rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 It doesn't matter in the least that it is two units at that point, it 'counts as' one. thats a mis reprisentation... its clearly not what the FAQ is saying. they are treated as one single deployment, NOT treated as one single unit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 Friendly players and RAI save the day again Nice, and here I thought witty quips and 40k political acronyms saved days... OT the RAI camp is just as valid as the RAW camp although this too is argued just as vehemently and to similar end, so tell me which camp supports gun control and ill tell you which camp im not! Either way both sides (admittedly or not) are of the exact same mentality while regarding themselves as a different philosophy with the final result usually being 'agree to disagree'. In this particular instance rules interpretation is something that is (and should be) done by both sides due to inadequate rules language but no one should go throwing RAI/RAW labels around since we are all in the same camp here, i.e. pedantic gamers. I would rather someone just made a 3rd 40k political party known as RTBM (Rules That Benefit Me) and everyone can join it. Until that day im happy to leave this thread where it stands and let GW sort it out in their own time. *insert silly face here* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Brom, I apologize if offense was given, but none was meant- I was being very serious. My comment is half in reference to the Method of the +OR+ topic. We have, once again, an unclear bit of rules, but you and your group have done exactly what needs to be done- decide on the RAI that works best for you. I don't use RAI as an insulting phrase in the least; I interpret the RAW to mean one thing, and you and your group interpret the RAW to mean another. We disagree, and we're both right :) My comment was aimed more at the fact that you and your friends must be great people to play because of how easily you seemed to solve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 Thanks for clarifying brother and I apologize for my post as well. It has been my experience in the past that RAI has been used as a label for people trying to get some sort of unfair advantage for personal gain which is what I assumed. My bad as it turns out and sorry for ass-uming :). My group truly is a 'for fun' group although this does not mean we dont play competitively so I guess I am fortunate that we can put our friendship and love of the hobby before everything else. Cheers to you something wycked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 No harm no foul, brother :tu: I hope the above back-and-forth on the rules helped the discussion with your friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 It doesn't matter in the least that it is two units at that point, it 'counts as' one. thats a mis reprisentation... its clearly not what the FAQ is saying. they are treated as one single deployment, NOT treated as one single unit I've never claimed they are a single unit when deploying as a Combat Squad, they are two units. That said they are treated (counts as) a single deployment. Which means for deployment purposes they 'count as' a single unit. Two units that are treated the same as a single unit. If deployed in a DOW game they would still be two units which would be the only troops allowed to be deployed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 It doesn't matter in the least that it is two units at that point, it 'counts as' one. thats a mis reprisentation... its clearly not what the FAQ is saying. they are treated as one single deployment, NOT treated as one single unit I've never claimed they are a single unit when deploying as a Combat Squad, they are two units. That said they are treated (counts as) a single deployment. Which means for deployment purposes they 'count as' a single unit. Two units that are treated the same as a single unit. If deployed in a DOW game they would still be two units which would be the only troops allowed to be deployed. This really was the crux of my earlier question. In my mind, 'single deployment' does not equal 'single unit'. Or 'count as' a single unit - why would that be so? We have precedent in the rules and FAQ's that a single deployment can indeed consist of multiple units. I don't see why in this case the single deployment should equal single unit. The real question for me, which hasn't been definitively worked out, is: when exactly does Shrike's unit become two units? Or to put it another way, when does the second combat squad lose the USR - before or after they hit the table? To me, this is the only thing that will decide if this situation can be worked out by RAW or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 The real question for me, which hasn't been definitively worked out, is: when exactly does Shrike's unit become two units? Or to put it another way, when does the second combat squad lose the USR - before or after they hit the table? To me, this is the only thing that will decide if this situation can be worked out by RAW or not. This is the reason i called it a catch 22 earlier.. according to the rules the decision to combat squad is done at the time they are deployed.. however the choice must be made before they are placed on the table, as they are placed in different locations because of this, at the point at which you place the second combat squad they cannot be attached to shrike and cant legally be allowed to infiltrate. being attached to shrike is the way the unit gets infiltrate, if the unit being deployed isnt attached to shrike then it doesnt have infiltrate and is being deployed illegally I've never claimed they are a single unit when deploying as a Combat Squad, they are two units.That said they are treated (counts as) a single deployment. Which means for deployment purposes they 'count as' a single unit. your making an assumption which isnt written in the FAQ.. it doesnt say they are treated as one unit, it says they are treated as one deployment. this helps when two armies have infiltrators, each deploys an infiltrating unit one after the other.. in the case of combat squads, you can place both as a single deployment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Agreed, that is another thing that this FAQ does. It is an assumption, but I find that it is better than dealing with a paradox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Not to harp on, but does anyone see the confusion that can occur between a RAW and RAI discussion here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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