Dawn of war and transports

[Toasterfree]

So, I am sure that this has been beaten like a dead horse with a stick, but I have a itching and burning (kinda like jock itch) for a question.

 

So, Dawn of War deployment says

 

HE can deploy up to two units from his Troops selections and up to one unit from his HQ

 

The EXAMPLE says

In his half of the table, player B then deploys a unit of Troops, already embarked into their dedicated transport (which is his second unit of troops)

 

the DEDICATED transport rule says

These 'dedicated transports' do not use up a slot of the force organisation chart

 

So how is someone able to deploy TWO empty transports at the start of the game. Please use quotes from FAQs please if that is where it is at. Your reason MUST come from either the BRB or a FAQ.

[Grey Mage]

Its very simple.

 

That transport was chosen from the troops section. Thats why it takes up one of the two units of troops when a unit is deployed into it. The dedicated transport doesnt take up a troops slot- you cannot use it for mimimum requirements, it doesnt count against your maximum, etc- because of the rules in the dedicated transport section. However, it is still a unit in its own right, and still purchased via the troops section of your army list. It has its own profile, it is a vehicle that isnt squandroned. All of that is found in the vehicle section.

 

So, you deploy the two troops units, or less, of your choice. Each transport is a unit, since they cannot join into a squadron (there are no rules for doing so we can note) and thus if you deploy two of them its two units and you can deploy no more. You could deploy less- since the scenario rules say "up to" two units of troops.

[Squirrelloid]

Don't dedicated transports deploy as the same deployment as the unit of troops they're dedicated to?

 

Ie, you'd deploy 2 army list units of troops with any associated transports. Dawn of war specifically says "two units from his troops selections", not 'two units of troops'. That means you deploy the entire selection you've chosen, which includes the transport. (Semantics quibble: The transport itself is not actually 'a unit from his troops selections' - it sits outside the organization chart and is attached to the unit of troops. It counts as a troops unit when that matters, but a troops selection is not equivalent to 'unit of troops', its equivalent to 'occupies a troops slot on the force organization chart')

 

Similarly, if space marines combat squad a unit of troops (two units deployed, but only one 'unit from his troops selections') they still get a second one.

 

Nothing requires the transport to set up with its squad - it can set up empty on the other side of the deployment zone!

[Grey Mage]

Its not outside of the chart- its purchased under the troops segment. Its a unit, and its troops. Just like a heavy weapon team from an IG Infantry plattoon. By itself though it cant be purchased and doesnt take up a slot. Also similar- servitors in C:SM.

 

Transports do not in any way have to deploy with the unit they are attached to. If the unit is embarked theyll come in together from reserves, and yes dedicated transports ARE restricted only carrying their own unit or ICs during deployment... but that doesnt mean they have to carry that unit or any ICs. Ability to do something doesnt mean its a requirement. I CAN shoot walnuts off the orchard, that doesnt mean I HAVE to shoot walnuts off the orchard whenever they grow.

[maturin]

What Grey Mage said. In addition, the very example in the rulebook (as the OP pointed out) specifically notes that a dedicated transport does indeed count as a separate unit in DoW.

[Squirrelloid]

Its not outside of the chart- its purchased under the troops segment. Its a unit, and its troops. Just like a heavy weapon team from an IG Infantry plattoon. By itself though it cant be purchased and doesnt take up a slot. Also similar- servitors in C:SM.

 

Transports do not in any way have to deploy with the unit they are attached to. If the unit is embarked theyll come in together from reserves, and yes dedicated transports ARE restricted only carrying their own unit or ICs during deployment... but that doesnt mean they have to carry that unit or any ICs. Ability to do something doesnt mean its a requirement. I CAN shoot walnuts off the orchard, that doesnt mean I HAVE to shoot walnuts off the orchard whenever they grow.

 

From Dedicated Transports, p67:

"These 'dedicated transports' do not use up a slot on the force organization chart."

 

Its not purchased *as a selection* on the force organization chart. Its not a 'troops selection' on its own. It "accompanies" (also p67) a troop selection.

 

From Dawn of War, p93:

"He can then deploy up to two units from his Troops selections..."

 

Not troops units, Troops selections. Ie, things that fill Troop slots on the force organization chart.

 

FWIW, i never said the transport had to be carrying the squad when deployed. It can deploy empty. But the transport cannot deploy without the squad either being embarked or deploying elsewhere because it only gets to deploy as part of the troop selection of the squad it accompanies. Just deploying 2 empty dedicated transports and not deploying the accompanying squads would be illegal.

 

And its a good thing they specify "Troop selections", because if it were 'two units of troops' a marine army could only deploy one combat squadded troop choice, since it would be two units of troops.

[Hellios]

Not troops units, Troops selections. Ie, things that fill Troop slots on the force organization chart.

 

FWIW, i never said the transport had to be carrying the squad when deployed. It can deploy empty. But the transport cannot deploy without the squad either being embarked or deploying elsewhere because it only gets to deploy as part of the troop selection of the squad it accompanies. Just deploying 2 empty dedicated transports and not deploying the accompanying squads would be illegal.

 

And its a good thing they specify "Troop selections", because if it were 'two units of troops' a marine army could only deploy one combat squadded troop choice, since it would be two units of troops.

 

What about Drop pods... If you deploy a squad with a Drop pod you are still required to keep the Drop pod in reserve.

[Brother Anvilus]

Drop pods must be held in reserve, because they have no other way of coming onto the table ( Drop pod assault rules )

 

you CAN however deploy the unit that bought the drop pod normally and then drop an empty pod ( ie: rifleman dreadnought with drop pod, deploy dread normal and drop the pod in the enemy lines for dispruption / herding the enemy into your firelanes )

[Grey Mage]

Its not outside of the chart- its purchased under the troops segment. Its a unit, and its troops. Just like a heavy weapon team from an IG Infantry plattoon. By itself though it cant be purchased and doesnt take up a slot. Also similar- servitors in C:SM.

 

Transports do not in any way have to deploy with the unit they are attached to. If the unit is embarked theyll come in together from reserves, and yes dedicated transports ARE restricted only carrying their own unit or ICs during deployment... but that doesnt mean they have to carry that unit or any ICs. Ability to do something doesnt mean its a requirement. I CAN shoot walnuts off the orchard, that doesnt mean I HAVE to shoot walnuts off the orchard whenever they grow.

 

From Dedicated Transports, p67:

"These 'dedicated transports' do not use up a slot on the force organization chart."

 

Its not purchased *as a selection* on the force organization chart. Its not a 'troops selection' on its own. It "accompanies" (also p67) a troop selection.

 

From Dawn of War, p93:

"He can then deploy up to two units from his Troops selections..."

 

Not troops units, Troops selections. Ie, things that fill Troop slots on the force organization chart.

 

FWIW, i never said the transport had to be carrying the squad when deployed. It can deploy empty. But the transport cannot deploy without the squad either being embarked or deploying elsewhere because it only gets to deploy as part of the troop selection of the squad it accompanies. Just deploying 2 empty dedicated transports and not deploying the accompanying squads would be illegal.

 

And its a good thing they specify "Troop selections", because if it were 'two units of troops' a marine army could only deploy one combat squadded troop choice, since it would be two units of troops.

It is most certainly 'selected' by the common english usage of the word. Just like you select a missile launcher for a ten man tactical squad, if you so choose, and so on.

 

And even the quote you brought out says "up to two units". The transport was selected along with the units other options, all under the troops heading. It is most certainly a troop, and a Landraider chosen for a terminator squad is an elites selection, a razorback for the command squad is an HQ selection and so on.

[Squirrelloid]

It is most certainly 'selected' by the common english usage of the word. Just like you select a missile launcher for a ten man tactical squad, if you so choose, and so on.

 

And even the quote you brought out says "up to two units". The transport was selected along with the units other options, all under the troops heading. It is most certainly a troop, and a Landraider chosen for a terminator squad is an elites selection, a razorback for the command squad is an HQ selection and so on.

 

It is not 'selected' as a 'troop' option, and thus not a 'troop selection'. It was selected as a dedicated transport. This happens to mean it counts as the appropriate unit type in play, but it doesn't change the fact it was selected as a dedicated transport. You're looking too generally - obviously everything in the army list has been selected, but we're looking for entities which were selected as a particular type of thing: Troops choices.

 

Let me quote more of the p67 Dedicated Transport rules for clarity:

"Sometimes a unit entry in a Codex will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit."

 

The thing selected is the full entry that takes up a force organization chart: unit + transport vehicle.

 

Question for you: How do you think combat squadding works with DoW?

 

----

Drop Pods are forced to be held in reserve but the squad they're selected for isn't. Basically, Drop Pods have special rules which specifically override how they interact with DoW.

[Toasterfree]

For that matter, if I buy a rhino for a troops unit of tac marines, and then put idk say (for arguements sake not actual sake) terminators (of course i know terms cannot fit in a rhino but please work with me here) would it not for all intents and purposes make that rhino an elites choice (not purchased for that unit). Cause you can use a rhino with tac marines STILL IN IT to control an objective, that rhino IS NOT a troop (it is a transport) its the CONTENTS of it that are a troop.

 

Looks a C:SW, there is an entire section all to its own of transports, they are not listed under the troops. they are listed as an option for said troops. As is a number of other things. IF you asked me, in a tournament setting, if you were to deploy just rhinos in DoW when a SELECTION (not a portion of it) has to be deployed, that rhino would NOT be a troop. with the dudes IN IT yes. after all, its the entire selection.

[SeattleDV8]

BRB pg.93 DoW (descriptive text)

....then deploys a unit of Troops, already embarked into their dedicated transport (which is his second unit of Troops).

That the dedicated transport 'counts as' is determined when it is bought as a unit upgrade. BRB pg. 87

Also, the reason that the Rhino can't hold an objective isn't because it's not a Troop, it's because troop vehicles can't score.

The dedicated transport(for a Troop or HQ unit) fulfills all the requirements to be deployed in DoW, empty or not.

 

If a unit combat squads it counts as two units for DoW, because you have to check your numbers at the end of deployment.

 

BRB pg. 93

....units that can infiltrate, can do so, as long as at the end of deployment the player still has a maximum of one HQ and two Troops units on the table.

[Arikel]

If a unit combat squads it counts as two units for DoW, because you have to check your numbers at the end of deployment.

 

Does this still apply under the new faq rulings? They state that a unit that combat squads now counts as a single deployment, not sure if it would affect how DoW deployment works though. I'd assume that yes it does count, as the squad ends up counting as two units, but I see room for argument.

 

As for dedicated transports they take up a slot of whatever you bought them for. A landraider purchased for terminators is considered an elites unit, a rhino bought for an hq is an hq unit etc. This means if you bought two rhinos for your tac squads and one razorback for a command squad it is legal to deploy those 3 transports as your required units in DoW deployment, then walk your squads on and embark them on the first turn.

[Toasterfree]

BRB pg.93 DoW (descriptive text)

....then deploys a unit of Troops, already embarked into their dedicated transport (which is his second unit of Troops).

That the dedicated transport 'counts as' is determined when it is bought as a unit upgrade. BRB pg. 87

Also, the reason that the Rhino can't hold an objective isn't because it's not a Troop, it's because troop vehicles can't score.

The dedicated transport(for a Troop or HQ unit) fulfills all the requirements to be deployed in DoW, empty or not.

 

If a unit combat squads it counts as two units for DoW, because you have to check your numbers at the end of deployment.

 

BRB pg. 93

....units that can infiltrate, can do so, as long as at the end of deployment the player still has a maximum of one HQ and two Troops units on the table.

 

the key here is that the rhinos that were deployed WERE EMPTY. I am not arguing that a unit ALREADY INSIDE would take up that slot also (i think it is poorly written and explained but oh well). it is EMPTY. there is nothing in there. they are not troops, they are bought as part of a unit. when you DEPLOY THE UNIT, you deploy the whole thing (i think drop pods do bring an exception to this since they only have one way to come in but i also do not agree with that unit NOT using their transport that was purchased for them, how do you feel when you get someone something for christmas and they dont use it)

[SeattleDV8]

It does not matter if they were empty, the dedicated transport is a 'unit' from the same force organisation category as the unit that bought it.

Thats all that DoW tells us it needs, up to 2 troop units and one HQ unit.

The troop (or HQ) dedicated transport meets that test.

 

Arikel

Does this still apply under the new faq rulings? They state that a unit that combat squads now counts as a single deployment, not sure if it would affect how DoW deployment works though. I'd assume that yes it does count, as the squad ends up counting as two units, but I see room for argument.

A single deployment (for infiltraters only) would be over once the models have been placed and you moved on to scout moves.(BRB pg. 92)

So at the end of deployment, when you would check how many units have been deployed, they are two units.

[thade]

I only have a moment, but wasn't this FAQ'd a while back? The dedicated transport is a Troop Unit for all intents and purposes during the game; it is not a scoring unit and doesn't take up a slot on the Force Org chart...those are it's only exceptions.

[Grey Mage]

BRB pg.93 DoW (descriptive text)

....then deploys a unit of Troops, already embarked into their dedicated transport (which is his second unit of Troops).

That the dedicated transport 'counts as' is determined when it is bought as a unit upgrade. BRB pg. 87

Also, the reason that the Rhino can't hold an objective isn't because it's not a Troop, it's because troop vehicles can't score.

The dedicated transport(for a Troop or HQ unit) fulfills all the requirements to be deployed in DoW, empty or not.

 

If a unit combat squads it counts as two units for DoW, because you have to check your numbers at the end of deployment.

 

BRB pg. 93

....units that can infiltrate, can do so, as long as at the end of deployment the player still has a maximum of one HQ and two Troops units on the table.

 

the key here is that the rhinos that were deployed WERE EMPTY. I am not arguing that a unit ALREADY INSIDE would take up that slot also (i think it is poorly written and explained but oh well). it is EMPTY. there is nothing in there. they are not troops, they are bought as part of a unit. when you DEPLOY THE UNIT, you deploy the whole thing (i think drop pods do bring an exception to this since they only have one way to come in but i also do not agree with that unit NOT using their transport that was purchased for them, how do you feel when you get someone something for christmas and they dont use it)

It doesnt matter if they are empty are full, they are still units. Just like a Landraider is still a unit even if theres nothing in it.

 

You dont have to deploy a squad in its dedicated transport- it just happens to be the only unit capable of doing so. Just because you can doesnt mean you have to.

[Squirrelloid]

Look, you can't just ignore wording. If it meant two units of troops, it would have said that. But it specifically says "two units from his Troops selections". On your army list, a combat squadded unit with a transport is one unit on the force organization chart, one unit from your Troops selections, even though its 3 units on the board.

 

That they deliberately chose wording which evokes the Force Organization chart makes it clear they meant something different than if they'd used the wording they use elsewhere when referring to units during the course of play.

[angry man]

Multiple unit choices

note that occaisionally the Codexes allow the player to include several units in his army at the cost of a single force organisation slot (like dedicated transports, etc.) apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as seperate units in all repects

emphasis is mine

 

this quote shows 2 things:

1. that the dedicated transports are bought as part of the FOC slot as the unit they were bought for

2. that the dedicated transport is a unit in its own right

 

he can then deploy up to two units from his troops selections and up to one unit from his HQ selections

 

since dedicated transports are a unit in their own right, and ones that are bought for troops come from your troops selection, they each count as one of your deployable units in a DoW mission deployment. this also means that if you so wish, you can deploy only empty transports

 

as far as combat squadding goes...

the decision to split into combat squads [snip] must be made when the unit is deployed

if you decide to split a unit into combat squads, then each comat squad is treated as a seperate unit for all game purposes from that point

so, lets take a tactical squad for an example:

as soon as the unit is deployed as combat squads they count as 2 seperate units. both of these units come from your troops selection and therefore you have reached your 2 unit limit for DoW deployment.

 

if the tactical squad is your 2nd choice to be deployed (lets imagine an un-combat squadded tactical squad is already deployed), then they cannot be combat squadded, as doing so would result with you having 3 units from your troops selection on the board

 

AM

[maturin]

Look, you can't just ignore wording. If it meant two units of troops, it would have said that. But it specifically says "two units from his Troops selections". On your army list, a combat squadded unit with a transport is one unit on the force organization chart, one unit from your Troops selections, even though its 3 units on the board.

 

That they deliberately chose wording which evokes the Force Organization chart makes it clear they meant something different than if they'd used the wording they use elsewhere when referring to units during the course of play.

 

Squirrelloid,

 

How do you deal with the fact that the example from the BRB directly contradicts your interpretation of this rule? You cannot ignore the presence of their very clear example.

[Toasterfree]

I only have a moment, but wasn't this FAQ'd a while back? The dedicated transport is a Troop Unit for all intents and purposes during the game; it is not a scoring unit and doesn't take up a slot on the Force Org chart...those are it's only exceptions.

I looked through the FAQ last night, and i dont not recall seeing that in there. And there is no where in the BRB where is says that transports become what slot they were bought for afaik

[thade]

How do you deal with the fact that the example from the BRB directly contradicts your interpretation of this rule? You cannot ignore the presence of their very clear example.

I think this is what I was thinking on.

 

There's nothing that really implies that "troop selection" specifically means "a thing that fulfills a slot on the force org chart". Very basic: when you select a Rhino, it is both a "selection" and a "troop unit"; calling it a "troop unit" or a "troop selection" makes no difference.

 

The reason this has come up in the past is that very example that Maturin calls out. It does seem a bit weird (most times when this comes up, people want the Rhino to not count at all in DoW) but that's how I've always seen it played.

 

If an opponent wants to deploy two empty Rhinos for his/her DoW deployment, that's entirely legal...if a bit quirky.

[Frosty the Pyro]

everyone i am very, very disapointed in you all (well except for seatle, as he mentions it, but really man put the full quote).

 

Pg 87 BrB,

dedicated transports

Dedicated transports sit outside the force orginization structure, as they are attached to the unit they are bought for. When this distinction is called for (such as in some mission or deployment types) dedicated transports count as being from the same force orginization catagory as the unit they were bought for. for example a rhino baught for a space marine tactical squad (troops) will count as a unit of troops, but if bought for a unit of vetrines it counts as elites

 

 

As for squirloid, you are mistaking the words unit and slot. A unit is a model or group of models that oporate independently. Just because a combat squaded tac squad with a transport take up one force orginization slot does not in any way stop them from being three distinct units. And dawn of war says you deploy UNITS that are FROM the relivant force org.

[SeattleDV8]

Heh, sorry Frosty, I'll try to do better.

I've been involved in the DOW/IG Platoon debate and I've seen that page a bit too much lately.

I was thinking everyone else had been seeing that bit without typing it out, but fortunately we've avoided that mess.

Some people are in a state of panic with the idea of an entire IG platoon in DoW and are trying to nerf it.

[thade]

Frosty, ftw. <3