Kol Saresk Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Now I know that this is already a highly debated topic since Legion by Dan Abnett and maybe more so by Deliverance Lost. But I think I may have finally found an answer. Most of the original fluff says that the Alpha Legion turned traitor because they were trying to prove their worth to their Loyalist brothers Gulliman and Dorn if I remember correctly. Then Dan Abnett comes along and makes them undercover agents for the sake of the universe at the cost of humanity. Now in Deliverance Lost, we see the Alpha Legion trying to capture the gene-tech from the Raven Guard so that they might become stronger simply because the Cabal told them that the Raven Guard would be threat to the Heresy. That statement is paraphrased and abbreviated of course. My question is, if the Alpha Legion were going to go ahead and win the Heresy and let Humanity destroy itself for the "Greater Good" of the xenos, why would they try to become stronger than everyone else? Even stronger than Horus? What's the point of being the guy with the biggest gun if everyone is going to just die anyway? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 There was one part in the book where Omegon is receiving his first transmission from "Alpharius" where in some thought-speak, he says that they're always looking for an advantage. Unintentionally something that came up that they were willing to take advantage of, if you ask me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/#findComment-2973351 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 If they have the strongest Legion then they would be better able to change the events of the Heresy, so if at one point things arent going the way they planned they can turn up with loads of new marines and kill everything. But then, that seems a bit far to go just to ensure the self destruction of the human race, and in the end Horus fails anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/#findComment-2973571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 If they have the strongest Legion then they would be better able to change the events of the Heresy, so if at one point things arent going the way they planned they can turn up with loads of new marines and kill everything. But then, that seems a bit far to go just to ensure the self destruction of the human race, and in the end Horus fails anyway. And after Horus fails, we'd have many, many Alpha Legionnaires with less indoctrination to the Alpha Legion creed due to the haste of their creation suddenly bereft of a guiding goal. That of the Cabal's prediction. It'd certainly give an understandable reason why they went from secretly Loyalist in the Heresy to the full-on Traitor mode in the 40k universe. Because they had thousands, possibly even tens of thousands, of brand spanking new Marines that were inducted into a Legion on the brink of double failure. Both the obvious failure of the revolution as a whole, and a failure on their secret agenda. Who knows, they might have rivaled Word Bearers in size at some point. EDIT: Getting rid of the drunkenness, my apologies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/#findComment-2973599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Going by the fact they've now sacked off the Cabal I think we can safely assume they're not out for the greater good. The whole vibe from Deliverance lost was that they are just out for themselves Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/#findComment-2973884 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eirik_Xenobane Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Going by the fact they've now sacked off the Cabal I think we can safely assume they're not out for the greater good. The whole vibe from Deliverance lost was that they are just out for themselves I think they are like Dorn, they are loyal to te Imperium. It makes a certain kind of sense to work on the other side, playing the long game and forging the Imperium by becoming an enemy. It's twisted but it's very Alpha legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/#findComment-2973897 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashrog Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 See, I don't think the Alpha Legion were ever working towards the Cabal's goal in the first place. Oh sure, they said they were. But when has the XX ever said anything straight? There was a similar discussion a while back, and someone (don't remember who) brought up a couple of good points: What reason do the Alphas have to believe the Cabal's claims? They are a bunch of dastardly xenos, after all. Even if the Cabal's predictions are true, why would the Alphas help wipe out humanity, rather than fighting to the bitter end? To give a free ride to a bunch of xenos? In 40k, of course, the Alpha Legion are fragmented. Some of their warbands use possessed and daemons, marking them as being completely aligned with Chaos. But from a 30k perspective, I view them as loyal to humanity, if not to the Imperium, and not to the Cabal in the least. As for the point about Deliverance Lost, if you accept that they were actively opposing the Cabal's agenda, while pretending to work for them, it makes sense. They hurt one Imperial agent (Raven Guard), while strengthening another (themselves), so there is no real shift in the balance of power. And they knew that the Heresy would fail (Alpharius planned it that way), so they would need the extra strength later. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/#findComment-2973903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PariahMessiah Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Even if the Cabal's predictions are true, why would the Alphas help wipe out humanity, rather than fighting to the bitter end? To give a free ride to a bunch of xenos? I haven't read Deliverance Lost yet (still in the mail), but from what I read in 'Legion', what reason wouldn't they have to side with Horus for the greater good? I know Alpha Legion is all secretive and have their own agenda's and whatnot, but according to what the Cabal said, fighting to the bitter end and remaining loyal would just delay the inevitable return of Chaos even if the big E defeated Horus and remained alive (albeit he's alive now, but not in the same way). Or, they could side with Horus, defeat the Emp, let Chaos run its course through humanity, wipe it out, and it would be gone forever. I'm a optimist, so I'd like to think they chose to side with Horus in an attempt to rid the whole Universe of Chaos forever once and for all, whether it be for Xenos or not (its still the right thing to do). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/#findComment-2973913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashrog Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 You're not thinking about it theough an Imperial mindset. What does it matter if Chaos is gone, if humanity is gone too? 99% of Imperials are completely opposed to xenos, even in 30k. The Alphas are probably in the 1% that wouldn't attack aliens on sight, but that doesn't mean that they would go to the other extreme and betray their race. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/#findComment-2973946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 See, I don't think the Alpha Legion were ever working towards the Cabal's goal in the first place. Oh sure, they said they were. But when has the XX ever said anything straight? There was a similar discussion a while back, and someone (don't remember who) brought up a couple of good points: What reason do the Alphas have to believe the Cabal's claims? They are a bunch of dastardly xenos, after all. Even if the Cabal's predictions are true, why would the Alphas help wipe out humanity, rather than fighting to the bitter end? To give a free ride to a bunch of xenos? In 40k, of course, the Alpha Legion are fragmented. Some of their warbands use possessed and daemons, marking them as being completely aligned with Chaos. But from a 30k perspective, I view them as loyal to humanity, if not to the Imperium, and not to the Cabal in the least. As for the point about Deliverance Lost, if you accept that they were actively opposing the Cabal's agenda, while pretending to work for them, it makes sense. They hurt one Imperial agent (Raven Guard), while strengthening another (themselves), so there is no real shift in the balance of power. And they knew that the Heresy would fail (Alpharius planned it that way), so they would need the extra strength later. Reading Deliverance Lost, it doesn't seem like they planned it, but were just being rather arrogant. Alpharius didn't give the right stuff over to Horus not because he was planning on Horus failing, but because he still believed he would and wanted to be the only Legion on top when he does. Same thing with the Cabal. They were following the Cabal's orders, after all. The only thing they did differently was keep the genetech for themselves, which didn't seem like they were defying the Cabal but more like they were just being arrogant. 'Well, it's okay if we have it' line of logic. I still believe that their allegiances and behind-the-scenes goals are still the same as they were by the end of Legion, but that their arrogance has led them to make mistakes in their reasoning and actions that will ultimately lead to the failure of Horus' rebellion, and to their greatly changed stance and demeanor by 40k. Especially when you consider how much more unique the Primarch twins were made in Deliverance Lost. Alpharius seemed more level-headed where Omegon seemed . . . not. If Alpharius does die, and Omegon does take over, it'd certainly be a tidy explanation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/#findComment-2973961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Deliverance Lost. Alpharius seemed more level-headed where Omegon seemed . . . not. That came across in Legion as well, Alpharius and Omegon have different personalities although fairly similar and they both have different views on certain things, as expected. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/#findComment-2974122 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 So it can be assumed that Alpharius and Omegon are twin sides of the same coin. And that the Alpha Legion itself was loyal only to itself and its survival which by extension would include Humanity so it could draw recruits. And of course there's the BIG question of just who died on Eskador. Geez no wonder the Inquisition hates these guys so much. They're nothing but a bunch of headaches. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/#findComment-2974397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 The Alpha Legion destroying chaos at the cost of humanity itself makes sense if you think about the horror of humanity living on in a cancerous state, rather than saving the universe for xenos. It could be that the Alpha Legion see it as a form of euthanasia. And it is certainly very space marine like to want to take your enemy down with you... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/#findComment-2974526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 The beliefs of the Alpha Legion are to 'maintain the flaws of humanity.' 40k is what the 30k Alpha Legion planned; mankind is surviving, it's flaws maintained. They understood that the Utopian Ideal laid out by the Emperor couldn't ever happen, yet they don't want mankind destroyed. They side with Horus to sabotage him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/#findComment-2974530 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 The beliefs of the Alpha Legion are to 'maintain the flaws of humanity.'40k is what the 30k Alpha Legion planned; mankind is surviving, it's flaws maintained. They understood that the Utopian Ideal laid out by the Emperor couldn't ever happen, yet they don't want mankind destroyed. They side with Horus to sabotage him. I'm leading towards that view aswell. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/#findComment-2974595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valtonis Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 They are Traitors, it doesn't matter what their intentions are they betrayed the Emperor and the Imperium, thus traitors. and they are idiots, at least the other primarchs were seduced due to their emotional flaws but Apharius/Omegon turned because they were shown a movie by some xenos. so their genetic flaw is not emotional but a lack of brains Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/#findComment-2974603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 They are Traitors, it doesn't matter what their intentions are they betrayed the Emperor and the Imperium, thus traitors. and they are idiots, at least the other primarchs were seduced due to their emotional flaws but Apharius/Omegon turned because they were shown a movie by some xenos. so their genetic flaw is not emotional but a lack of brains They are definitely traitors, but I think you've completely misunderstood and/or misinterpreted their motives. They didn't turn away from the Emperor, they turned towards mankind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/#findComment-2974607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 So, why have they kept raiding Imperial Worlds for the past ten thousand years? ;) I mean, there is the possibility that someone turning over to the traitor side might have some kind of double, undercover motive. But after ten thousand years of fighting on the side of Chaos against mankind you are kind of past "they might have some noble long term goal". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/#findComment-2974612 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 So, why have they kept raiding Imperial Worlds for the past ten thousand years? ;) I mean, there is the possibility that someone turning over to the traitor side might have some kind of double, undercover motive. But after ten thousand years of fighting on the side of Chaos against mankind you are kind of past "they might have some noble long term goal". I think its been stated often enough that the Alpha Legion are fragmented and are not a cohesive force, so its more than likely that some of these warhands or cells would have been corrupted or gone completely against their orginal motives - but that doesn't mean all of them, its likely there are many that are still "loyal" if you take the novel Legion in to account. Also raiding is hardly bad considering the amount of damage they could cause if they wanted, raiding shows restraint, aiming at specific targets that are either critical to their objective or something like a hit and run, stealing equipment and leaving. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/#findComment-2974623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Willy Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I think that Alpharius and Omegon were genuinely convinced by the Cabals acuity. They knew at least what chaos was and after they were showen what could happen they agreed that it s better to listen to a group that has existed for millions of years longer then the imperium. The thing that Alphas were known for seeing the longer picture, something the elder do, so it makes sense they would have the ability to come to a similiar conclusion as the Cabal using there own analytical powers, of which a primarch famed for his long and convoluted planning would have very mighty powers. As for the 40k Alphas, they ain't the old legion, just as the other legions aren't the same. Chaos is anathema to Order, not a single Legion still exists in it's old state, loyal or traitor, I think the legion saw that such a result would happen no matter what, but with Horus in charge and the Imperium replaced with Chaos land the legions would just slaughter everything till all that remained were those races not stupid enough to let chaos return. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/#findComment-2974634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninja6fett Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Here's the thing, whatever the motivation of Alpharius/Omegon, Deliverance Lost shows that the rank and file Alpha Legionnaires believe they turned to Horus' cause over the Emperor, not to the cabal or anything, because they don't know about it. Which really hurts the whole idea of them turning traitor in my opinion. Actually I really didn't like 'Alpharius' the infiltrator in the book, he seemed like an idiot, not a master of espionage. What would be interesting to me is if at the end of the heresy, Alpharius and Omegon have a falling out, one falling to Chaos and one returning to being loyal. That in my mind could account for the fickle nature of the Alpha Legion in 40k. Although I can't think of any instances where they are helpful to the Imperium in current fluff.... But there is stuff like the Daemon Prince Voldorius and The Siege of Vraks and the less chaos-y infiltration and destruction of those couple of chapters.... Of course the loyal part of the AL could be masquerading as various loyalist chapters, their good deeds going unrecorded. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/#findComment-2974847 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piousservant Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I can't remember whether it was in Aurelian or in Outcast Dead, but in one or the other there was a vision sequence where there is a very minor nod towards the Alpha Legion in the vision with something along the lines of "two twins pulling in seperate directions". Anyone remember where that is from? I think it's a definate note towards Alpharius and Omegon and a suggestion to how the differences between 30k and 40k might be resolved. I don't see any reason why the Alpha Legion would be genuinely swayed by the Cabal - considering the Legions view on the fallacy in the Emperors "utopian" vision and their belief in managing the flaws of man, I don't see why they'd favour wiping out all of humanity just to save a bunch of old xenos. So I do think they are playing a double game, but maybe when the corrupting influence of Chaos gets to perhaps just one of the twin Primarchs we see the Legion fracturing and a large part of it turning to Chaos and becoming the Alpha Legion we see in 40k. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/#findComment-2975096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I thought it was initially a nod to them but then it went on about the message being very cryptic so I then thought it was far too obvious about a& o Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/#findComment-2975108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karolus Magnus Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I can't remember whether it was in Aurelian or in Outcast Dead, but in one or the other there was a vision sequence where there is a very minor nod towards the Alpha Legion in the vision with something along the lines of "two twins pulling in seperate directions". Anyone remember where that is from? I believe this is what caused the turn from a covertly loyal legion to outright traitor. At the end of Legion Alpharius stated that everything done from here on is for the Emperor, why would he aid Horus if it meant the destruction of all humanity, the fact that humanity survives should only add weight to this. So in order to ensure that Horus would be unable to accomplish his goal they would need to post infiltrators into all of the traitor legions, we know this is done from the short story The Face of Treachery where an alpha legionary posed as a World Eater to allow Corax to escape, so in order to accomplish this and still be at a necessary strength to both hide the infiltrators, and be able to still fight and seem loyal to Horus, they would need the extra material to increase their numbers. That being said it would appear they accomplished their goal, however shortly after the heresy "Alpharius" was killed by Guilliman, others might argue it wasn't really him, but i believe it was. It is from this point onward that Omegon took control of the legion and lead it to what we see in the 41st millennium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/#findComment-2993105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nachocuban Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Here's the thing, whatever the motivation of Alpharius/Omegon, Deliverance Lost shows that the rank and file Alpha Legionnaires believe they turned to Horus' cause over the Emperor, not to the cabal or anything, because they don't know about it. Which really hurts the whole idea of them turning traitor in my opinion. 2 things, First like ninjafett said the majority of the legionaries don't know why they went with Horus, but are following orders. They probably got fed a line like... "We've thought this through, and its the best in the long run, just trust us" So as they legion was fragmented they just continued fighting the Imperium. 2nd, After Horus was defeated, and the Legion scattered, the Imperium would have continued to attack the Alphas at any chance, because they believe them to be traitors, And who would believe them when they said they weren't? After 10k years of being harassed by the Imperium even the most devout loyalists would probably turn to chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245816-alpha-legionspoilers/#findComment-2993166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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