Alpha Legion[SPOILERS]

[Captain Idaho]

The Alpha Legion are self serving traitors, plain and simple. They chose the best option for them rather than humanity and the Emperor, regardless of what the Primarchs themselves believe. It's like Magnus the Red; they think they know better than the path of the Emperor so forge a new path.. Check out Deliverance Lost and you can see few, if any, alturistic actions of theirs. They are all too keen on eliminating Loyal Legions to ensure Horus wins the Heresy but at a weakened state.

[Ethrion]

I always felt they were tricked into their course of action. Sure, the cabal offered them only two choices, the quick destruction of mankind and the death of chaos or the slow demise of mankind and chaos ultimately winning. But had they outright sided with the Emperor then the Alpha Legion as a loyalist force would have been able to severely damage Horus' efforts in much the same way as they severely damaged the loyalists.

 

Ultimately, the Alpha Legion lacked faith in humanity and the Emperor. They always liked taking the most convoluted, overly complex route to achieve a simple goal and by turning "traitor" it ticked all their boxes.

[eyeslikethunder]

The Alpha Legion are self serving traitors, plain and simple. They chose the best option for them rather than humanity and the Emperor, regardless of what the Primarchs themselves believe. It's like Magnus the Red; they think they know better than the path of the Emperor so forge a new path.. Check out Deliverance Lost and you can see few, if any, alturistic actions of theirs. They are all too keen on eliminating Loyal Legions to ensure Horus wins the Heresy but at a weakened state.

 

 

They also play a role in some the of loyalists escaping istvann. With Alpharius killing some lunar wolves to let them escape

 

I always felt they were tricked into their course of action. Sure, the cabal offered them only two choices, the quick destruction of mankind and the death of chaos or the slow demise of mankind and chaos ultimately winning. But had they outright sided with the Emperor then the Alpha Legion as a loyalist force would have been able to severely damage Horus' efforts in much the same way as they severely damaged the loyalists

 

I did note that the prediction they were shown was wrong with the cabal being surprised that horus already being Warmaster. I always suspected chaos of interfering with the cabals predictions to use them for its own plans

[Captain Idaho]

The Alpha Legion are self serving traitors, plain and simple. They chose the best option for them rather than humanity and the Emperor, regardless of what the Primarchs themselves believe. It's like Magnus the Red; they think they know better than the path of the Emperor so forge a new path.. Check out Deliverance Lost and you can see few, if any, alturistic actions of theirs. They are all too keen on eliminating Loyal Legions to ensure Horus wins the Heresy but at a weakened state.

 

 

They also play a role in some the of loyalists escaping istvann. With Alpharius killing some lunar wolves to let them escape

 

Which proved my point in that they are acting selfishly and out of arrogance of trusting their own plans over others. Having read Deliverance Lost it makes it clear their assistance to the Loyalists wasn't for the benefit of the Raven Guard or the Emperor...

[b1soul]

The AL started out thinking of themselves as independents and then devolved into Chaos traitors over the millennia. The main antagonist in The Hunt for Voldorius is an Alpha Legion Daemon Prince called Voldorius. The AL have Daemon Princes in 40K...they're traitors.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah they are Traitors. But are they like everyobe else where they have completely fallen to Chaos or is their Legion splintered by fundementals like the Night Lords?

[igotsmeakabob!!]

or is their Legion splintered by fundementals like the Night Lords?

This is my preferred interpretation, but maybe I just like the idea of a portion of AL still fighting for the original purpose that their Primarch(s) chose... as when I eventually field an AL force, this will be their background.

[EPK]

I can't remember whether it was in Aurelian or in Outcast Dead, but in one or the other there was a vision sequence where there is a very minor nod towards the Alpha Legion in the vision with something along the lines of "two twins pulling in seperate directions". Anyone remember where that is from?

 

To answer your question, it's from Outcast Dead.

[Kol Saresk]

I can't remember whether it was in Aurelian or in Outcast Dead, but in one or the other there was a vision sequence where there is a very minor nod towards the Alpha Legion in the vision with something along the lines of "two twins pulling in seperate directions". Anyone remember where that is from?

Personally I like the angle they have taken. But I think the "separate directions" is most noticeable in Deliverance Lost. Look at how the Primarchs treat the Cabal representative. Alpharius resents the "chaperone" but is willing to work with him and even acts cordial. But then you get Omegon who doesn't like it all and decides to sever connections to the Cabal, without consulting Alpharius, and pretty much kills the representative.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

A Traitor is a Traitor.

 

The punishment for Treachery is Death.

 

End of Story.

[Kol Saresk]

No one is denying that. Although by such a simplistic definition, since the Lion was willing to even consider Gulliman's call to rebellion he is a Traitor as well. What this thread is currently discussing is if the whole Legion has fallen to Chaos or if they are fractured with some being Renegades, Outlawed Imperialist who are still deep undercover and some being Chaos. Basically, where did it all go wrong.

[Kol Saresk]

EDIT: Double post.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Maybe Alpharius and Omegon had differing opinions, maybe they intended to remain loyal, but, as with so many good intentions it turned out bad. The starting point was when they turned on their oaths. Like with Luther, he thought he was doing the best thing for Caliban, but the moment he turned on his oaths he doomed himself and Caliban. Same with Horus and the Alpha Legion. Horus thought he was saving the Imperium from a man who sought to become a god.In the end he raised 4 beings to greater power and cast down the one man who could stop them as well as attempting to destroy humanities best, last hope. Same with the AL, no matter the intention what they did was rebellion. Perhaps some remain true to the Imperium, but its a funny way to remain true when your trying to tear it down...

 

And, where is this comment that Guilliman called anyone to rebellion and the Lion heeded it? I do not remember reading this anywhere...

[Kol Saresk]

That short story that recently featured him? Well it ends with the Lion saying that Gulliman has invited the DA to Ultramar and that Horus is not the only one who believes that he will inherit the Imperium. With a smile. So it doesn't necessarily say that he accepted the offer but it doesn't say that he denied it either. Of course I haven't read The Lion either so I could be wrong. And Gulliman is stated as starting his own rebellion in Rules of Engagement where he decides to make an Imperium 2.0 to survive the destruction of the current Imperium while he decides to let Horus burn the first one to the ground and preserve the Emperor's "ideals" of warmongering and conquest. That was presented in The Last Church I think the short story was called, by John Grammaticus in Legion and what few accounts we currently have about his brutal elimination tactics of any and all resistance in the Unification Wars as well as the "enlightenment" of every world he has reclaimed personally in the Great Crusade.

[ftcosiris]

My thoughts are the similar to some previous posts. The Alpha's primarchs were truly convinced by the Cabal. They don't want to see the slow death of the galaxy as a whole to Chaos and as the Emperor said in Outcast Dead: Sometimes the best outcome you can achieve is to deny your enemy victory. (paraphrased I know)

 

In other words, if the Emperor wins, the Cabal's prediction is that Chaos will act as a cancer and eventually overwhelm humanity and take over and rule forever. If Horus wins in a weaken state, humanity still dies BUT Chaos is destroyed along with it.

 

Hence, do you want to 1) die or be enslaved forever or 2) die and take your enemy with you. Even I would choose option 2.

 

My other thought on the whole Cabal thing is that the Cabal had a ulterior motive and lied to the Alpha's.

 

What I understand the future's shown to the Alpha's to be is 1) what actually exists in WH40K if the Emperor wins although I think things were "golden" for a while, or 2) Horus winning and then destroying humanity and Chaos in a massive free for all.

 

Does anyone feel like the Cabal lost the THIRD tape, i.e. the one where the Alpha's stayed completely loyal and the Emperor didn't wind up in his Golden Prison.

 

Remember that the ultimate goal of the Crusade appeared to be the utter annihilation of all things Xeno. The Crusade didn't even appear to tolerate Xeno's as slaves. ALL Xenos had to die right?

 

Look at it from the Cabal's point of view­ First, if Horus wins outright, bye bye humanity. Problem solved. Second, if they get the Alpha's to partially turn, the Alpha's screw up the Raven Guard's dues ex machina return from the brink via the genetech and the Emperor winds up on the Golden Throne. Its not a great outcome for the Xenos but the Emperor is not running around or even able to coordinate all of Humanity to destroy them. Given time, humanity still might wipe itself out taking Chaos with it. Given time, a less xenophobic race, think Tau, may rise up and take out both the Imperium and Chaos.

 

BUT

 

That third tape. . . .

 

The third acuity vision probably showed that if the Alpha's stayed loyal and Horus didn't mortally injure the Emperor, given enough time, the Emperor would have sealed the breach in the Webway project, taken the Webway from the Eldar, rallied the loyal Primarchs and Legions, obliterated the traitor Legions, and then . . . . what. . . .

 

KILLED ALL XENOS.

 

Xenos lose big.

 

From the Cabal's point of view, the third tape is the worst possible outcome. Hence, the Cabal told the Alpha's that the tape from what actually occurred (Alpha's partially traitors but Horus loses anyway) was the only possible victory scenario for the Emperor.

 

Anybody think that the Cabal wouldn tell the Alpha's:

 

"Oh, by the way, if you remain entirely loyal and even openly work against Horus at the very beginning of his Heresy, there's at least a 25% chance that the Emperor will win and you can KILL all of us Xenos."

 

No, no way were they going to put that little possibility forward. The Alpha's would have just chopped their heads off for wasting their time and immediately started working against Horus.

 

What did they do instead, they didn't lie. They did show the Alpha's the outcome of the Emperor's victory. They just didn't mention that their Emperor wins scenario still assumed that the Alpha's turned traitor (outwardly).

 

Anyhow, I think it was a brilliant tactic on the part of the Xenos to undermine the biggest threat to their existence, the Emperor's Imperium and at least preserve a fighting chance for all of us Xenos out there. (I joined the Tau in 998 M41, the Imperium's just flat nuts.)

 

Sure, the Imperium is still scary in WH40K but it's lost its drive and focus from the Grand Crusade Era. Also, it's still busy trying to kill itself (Chaos forces are still Imperials trying to kill Imperials) and not able to fully recover and KILL ALL XENOS.

 

In the end, the Cabal acheived its goal. . . 10,000 years and Xenos are still around. It took the Emperor 200 years to conquer most of the galaxy. Do you really think he couldn't have finished the job in 10,000 years?

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Basically, yup. It makes perfect sense that the Cabal wanted to save their own hides, and so conveniently forgot that last bit about them getting wiped out forever.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

That short story that recently featured him? Well it ends with the Lion saying that Gulliman has invited the DA to Ultramar and that Horus is not the only one who believes that he will inherit the Imperium. With a smile. So it doesn't necessarily say that he accepted the offer but it doesn't say that he denied it either. Of course I haven't read The Lion either so I could be wrong. And Gulliman is stated as starting his own rebellion in Rules of Engagement where he decides to make an Imperium 2.0 to survive the destruction of the current Imperium while he decides to let Horus burn the first one to the ground and preserve the Emperor's "ideals" of warmongering and conquest. That was presented in The Last Church I think the short story was called, by John Grammaticus in Legion and what few accounts we currently have about his brutal elimination tactics of any and all resistance in the Unification Wars as well as the "enlightenment" of every world he has reclaimed personally in the Great Crusade.

 

You mean Savage Weapons? I interpreted that as he was implying that Guilliman might be thinking about the after Heresy. I never read into that, or rules of engagement, that either were planning on treachery. The current two novels featuring them both seem to show them loyal and steadfast. I think its just another wish for bad ultras and a traitor Lion. But no, I think that it is referring to planning for the future. As far as the Primarchs are concerned, one of them will suceed Horus as the 'Heir' and 'Warmaster' and many want it (Lion and Roboute come to mind). This is what I thought they were all referring to.

 

But anyway, I feel we are hijacking the thread, I guess we will have to see what the outcome of the series is!

[Kol Saresk]

At the end of Rules of Engagement Gulliman says something along the lines of "I'm sorry Father." and then it says that he is penning a book titled The Second Imperium. And both stories have Horus as not dead yet but yeah, just going to have to wait and see. I just hope it makes for a good read like the rest of the series has.

[Legatus]

That short story that recently featured him? Well it ends with the Lion saying that Gulliman has invited the DA to Ultramar and that Horus is not the only one who believes that he will inherit the Imperium. With a smile. So it doesn't necessarily say that he accepted the offer but it doesn't say that he denied it either. Of course I haven't read The Lion either so I could be wrong. And Gulliman is stated as starting his own rebellion in Rules of Engagement where he decides to make an Imperium 2.0 to survive the destruction of the current Imperium while he decides to let Horus burn the first one to the ground and preserve the Emperor's "ideals" of warmongering and conquest. That was presented in The Last Church I think the short story was called, by John Grammaticus in Legion and what few accounts we currently have about his brutal elimination tactics of any and all resistance in the Unification Wars as well as the "enlightenment" of every world he has reclaimed personally in the Great Crusade.

Not everyone can read every source. I understand. However, you seem to have missed one or two crucial sources, and thus created a particularly skewed picture in your head. Allow me...

 

- Jonson is utterly loyal. The accusations made against him in one of the Dark Angels novels was merely included by Gav based in a spontanous idea of putting in some shocking and controversial accusation. Gav never meant that as a change in Jonson's background or a big revelation, but merely had a little fun having a subjective character make that accusation. He explains as much in the afterword in some of the editions of that book. The charakter making that accusation (Astelan, I believe) fully believed what he said, but he simply did not know better, and he was completely mistaken.

A D-B made it a point in his 'Savage Weapon' story to state unambiguously that Jonson was loyal to the Emperor. Specifically so the misconception about Jonson caused by Gavs novel would be put to rest once and for all. Unfortunately A D-B also made Guilliman seem a bit shady at the end of that story.

 

- IIRC Jonson remarks at the end of Savage Weapons that "someone else thinks he should be warmaster", and not "...should inherit the Imperium". An important difference, I would say.

 

- "And Gulliman is stated as starting his own rebellion in Rules of Engagement". . . That is not what is stated in 'Rules of Engagement'. At all. He described himself as a "traitor", because he had already given up on the current Imperium. In his view, it could not be saved, and that way of thinking was treasonous to him. He remained faithful to the goal of the Emperor, and was working hard to make sure that the next attempt at a united mankind would not suffer the same fate.

He was also described as not going to war with the traitors, and unfortunately Graham McNeill failed to explain his reasons for that. So that story taken by itself does give the impression that he is purposefully not even making any attempts to engage the traitor forces. However, in 'Know no Fear' we are thankfully told that the reason why the Ultramarines were inactive for all that time was that the Word Bearers attack had left their fleet in ruins, and that warp storms were preventing any serious attempt at travelling, just as it had been for the Dark Angels according to the 'Savage Weapons' story.

 

- The goal of the Emperor was not eternal warmongering and suppression, it was a united mankind. Those who were opposed to the idea and who were then prosecuted would of course complain. Perhaps you should watch 'Hero' on that topic. It's a great movie.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually John Grammaticus in Legion does say that when he looked into the Emperor's eyes that the Emperor "was never going to turn away from the road of catastrophic bloodshed that he was set upon. One day, he would unleash upon the galaxy the most dreadful killing machines of all: the Astartes." On page 75. It could just be me, but it seemed like a very negative view of the Emperor and gives the impression that he only cared about bringing humanity to "compliance" under his rule and his rule alone. Don't really know since we don't see that much of the Emperor except in passing, with the exception of the firsthand views of him in Descent of Angels, The First Heretic, and Deliverance Lost. Although on page 74, Grammaticus says "It was unconscionable how many times the roving expedition fleets had been forced to go to war with the very cultures they had set out to rescue and embrace, just to bring them to what the Emperor had euphemistically called compliance. It was always, so the official line went, for their own good." Oh also on page 76(funny how all of these are so close together) there is a conversation between Gahet and Grammaticus. Gahet tells him how the Emperor would have been the only human who would have been a viable addition to the Cabal itself, not as an operative, because he saw the long picture of things. John asks him if he ever met the Emperor Gahet says no. Then Grammaticus says "Then you have no idea what a bloodthirsty bastard he really is." And Grammaticus was someone who fought alongside the Emperor. I can understand how you might have missed that since not everyone can read every source. :D

 

And I responded to Brother-Sergeant Bohemond in that fashion because of his comment "A Traitor is a Traitor" in regards to Alpha Legion fighting and killing fellow Imperials for the "betterment of humanity." And wasn't Horus told to go to war with the Interex because they consorted with the xenos and since that was in direct conflict with the Emperor's will they needed to be enlightened of it? I'm not sure because I only have a few of my books with me. But would definitely fit into the 40k black-and-white view of "If you're not with me then you are against me." We see this oh how much fluff that involves the Inquisitors? I believe it is in Chapter War when that one Inquisitor refuses to go along with the Howling Griffons( back when Percilitor was a Night Lord) against the Soul Drinkers and that was before he shot one of them. We also see it again with the Wolves in A Thousand Sons when the KSons refuse to burn the Libraries and even the Word Bearers are ready to have a go at them for not "obeying the Emperor's Will" to remove all profane knowledge. It is seen again in the Ultramarines series where Uriel thinks badly of the Mortifactors for their blatant disregard for the teachings of the Codex(ironically) and when Uriel himself is punished his comparatively minor deviance from the Codex. Now, neither is strictly censured although it does almost come to blows between the Ultras and the Mortifactors when the Deathwatch first get involved but Uriel is basically sent on a suicide mission and even when he gets back and is reinstated, he is still viewed with some resentment by a few of the other captains, most notably Sicarius of the Second. So, going through all of this, if someone pledges all of his Loyalty towards you and promises to aid you in your time of need, and then you don't do it, at all, then you are a traitor as Bohemond pointed out.

 

Now, as far as Know No Fear is concerned, it is not at the local bookstores. I have no desire for digital copies since I do not have a portable device to view it on and nowadays I mostly read books to pass by the breaks in school since that is the only time I seem to have, so I have not read it yet. So that knowledge was currently unknown to me until now. But if the warp storms are that bad, then how do the Blood Angels make the trip to Signus Prime and then to Terra, ahead of the Traitors? And didn't Gulliman even have scenrios fighting against the Salamanders? Who were Loyal? Sounds like he is willing to fight survivors from both sides. Of course that could just be me. But like me and Bohemond both agreed on, just have to wait and see what the series brings forth.

 

Oh and I noticed the thing about Astelan, Astelan stated the Lion was merely waiting to see who won, not really rooting for either side. And Curze does mention that as the future he see for him. But in the second DA HH novel Fallen Angels, we see him hand over massive siege weapons to Perturabo "with a knowing smile." is what I believe it says. Again that is not one of the books that I currently have with me.

 

There are eleven films that go by the title "Hero" so could I get a specific year to when it was made?

[Gree]

But if the warp storms are that bad, then how do the Blood Angels make the trip to Signus Prime and then to Terra, ahead of the Traitors?

 

Erebus cast the warp storms right at Calth. That might have something to do with the severity.

 

And didn't Gulliman even have scenrios fighting against the Salamanders? Who were Loyal? Sounds like he is willing to fight survivors from both sides. Of course that could just be me. But like me and Bohemond both agreed on, just have to wait and see what the series brings forth.

 

I think Know No Fear explicitly and clearly shows Guilliman to be quite loyal to the Emperor, shocked and horrified at the thought of Astartes on Astartes violence. Later on, when he is told news of Vulkan’s alleged death he is quite sadden and depressed.

[Kol Saresk]

Now, as far as Know No Fear is concerned, it is not at the local bookstores. I have no desire for digital copies since I do not have a portable device to view it on and nowadays I mostly read books to pass by the breaks in school since that is the only time I seem to have, so I have not read it yet. So that knowledge was currently unknown to me until now.

Somehow everyone keeps missing this one detail.

[Gree]

Now, as far as Know No Fear is concerned, it is not at the local bookstores. I have no desire for digital copies since I do not have a portable device to view it on and nowadays I mostly read books to pass by the breaks in school since that is the only time I seem to have, so I have not read it yet. So that knowledge was currently unknown to me until now.

Somehow everyone keeps missing this one detail.

 

Then you perhaps should take into account the information people are trying to help you with? I can tell you right now, that Know No Fear clearly spells out Guilliman as the loyal son.

[Legatus]

There are eleven films that go by the title "Hero" so could I get a specific year to when it was made?

Ah, my bad. I meant the one with jet Li, "Ying Xiong", from 2002.

 

 

But if the warp storms are that bad, then how do the Blood Angels make the trip to Signus Prime and then to Terra, ahead of the Traitors?

I assume the warp storms were not spanning the entire galaxy. But was Signus prime even in the first years of the Heresy? The warp storms are said to have cleared two years into the Heresy. At least they did for the Dark Angels, according to 'Savage Weapons' who were then able to make contact again with other Imperial forces, and for the Ultramarines, according to 'Know no Fear'.

 

I have not read 'Know no Fear' myself, fyi. (No way I am reading an entire novel on a screen.) I only have picked up some bits from the threads discussing it.

 

 

And didn't Gulliman even have scenrios fighting against the Salamanders? Who were Loyal?

How was he supposed to know that? Trapped in Ultramar and with no communication possible? IIRC the "Salamanders" in that particular engagement were refered to as "traitors" by the Ultramarines fighting them.

 

 

Astelan stated the Lion was merely waiting to see who won, not really rooting for either side.

And Astelan assumed that was what had happened because... in the millennia after the Heresy he had heard about the glorious stories of the Imperial Fists and Blood Angels defending Terra, but no stories about the Dark Angels defending Terra. It was inconceivable to him that the supposed "greatest strategist" would not manage to be at Terra in time, so the conclusion he drew for why there were no accounts about the Dark Angels defending Terra was: Jonson deliberately was not intervening, so see which side would win.

 

We, as outside observers and with hindsight, of course know that this is complet bs. We also know that it had been the Space Wolves who had been responsible for the two Legion's delayed arrival, which had Jonson so outraged that he and Russ fought in a duel. We know this, but of course Astelan does not.

 

And Curze was predicting that this would be what people would think of Jonson. Not that that's what Jonson would do, that it would be what people would think of him. It was essentially forshadowing the Astelan accusations. Jonson himself is presented as utterly loyal in that story, and the author himself had pointed out that this had been his inteniton for Jonson in that short story.

 

And when Jonson handed the siege engines over to Perturabo, that was so Perturabo could use them against Horus. The slightly shady note in this instance was that Jonson was planning to become the warmaster once Horus had been dealt with. There was ambition involved, but no disloyalty.

 

 

I don't know anything about this Grammaticus character, so I would have to read up on him. But I assume he is a human? If so, then wth does he know about the intentions of the Emperor? Although his remarks about the Emperor and his plans you describe seem perfectly ordinary, coming from someone who doesn't, as the cabal puts it, see the long picture. Just as the remarks by the priest in "the last church" seem reasonable, coming from an extremely narrow world view and little insight into the universe.

[Gree]

I don't know anything about this Grammaticus character, so I would have to read up on him. But I assume he is a human? If so, then wth does he know about the intentions of the Emperor? Although his remarks about the Emperor and his plans you describe seem perfectly ordinary, coming from someone who doesn't, as the cabal puts it, see the long picture. Just as the remarks by the priest in "the last church" seem reasonable, coming from an extremely narrow world view and little insight into the universe.

 

He is an immortal human psyker, implied to have lived many thousands of years. It’s hinted in Legion and Know No Fear that he was altered long ago by xenos to be immortal. One of his psychic gifts is that he can ‘’read people’’.