Alpha Legion[SPOILERS]

[The 13th Goat]

That short story that recently featured him? Well it ends with the Lion saying that Gulliman has invited the DA to Ultramar and that Horus is not the only one who believes that he will inherit the Imperium. With a smile. So it doesn't necessarily say that he accepted the offer but it doesn't say that he denied it either. Of course I haven't read The Lion either so I could be wrong. And Gulliman is stated as starting his own rebellion in Rules of Engagement where he decides to make an Imperium 2.0 to survive the destruction of the current Imperium while he decides to let Horus burn the first one to the ground and preserve the Emperor's "ideals" of warmongering and conquest. That was presented in The Last Church I think the short story was called, by John Grammaticus in Legion and what few accounts we currently have about his brutal elimination tactics of any and all resistance in the Unification Wars as well as the "enlightenment" of every world he has reclaimed personally in the Great Crusade.

 

As soon as you said this, I thought I heard a rage filled scream. Then, as if called forth by the mere mention of Guilimans name, "Papa Smurf" himself joined the fray....

 

Not everyone can read every source. I understand. However, you seem to have missed one or two crucial sources, and thus created a particularly skewed picture in your head. Allow me...

 

However, in a thankfull break from mine and Legz's last encounter, I totally agree with him. Guilliman was loyal, no doubt about it. The Lion's comment's were mearly supposition on his part.

 

A great theory, but in this case I think it is a less than likely direction for the Ultras.

[Kol Saresk]

I am. I considered and then I said that because of the information Legatus provided made it look like Rules of Engagement happened after Know No Fear which is why I said what I did. Here it is:

However, in 'Know no Fear' we are thankfully told that the reason why the Ultramarines were inactive for all that time was that the Word Bearers attack had left their fleet in ruins, and that warp storms were preventing any serious attempt at traveling, just as it had been for the Dark Angels according to the 'Savage Weapons' story.

So I am listening. Which is why I presented the scenario against the Salamanders. And since nothing in that post said anything about the warpstorms being brought into existence at Calth I presented the Blood Angels. And since the DA, who are near Ultramar and therefore not necessarily near Calth, are only chasing the NL around because they cannot travel to Terra. So the warp storms would definitely have to have a range that goes far beyond Calth so again I present my case for the Blood Angels. At the very least, Gulliman and Johnson should have tried to find a way to at least find the weak point since Johnson would have ships if relative location to Calth determined the severity of the warp storms. After all, Corax managed to travel through warp storms. But that might have been because he came from Istvaan, quite a bit after the Massacre and sometime before the Siege.

 

And Legatus, I apologize for some of this conflicting with your answer. I was just getting more quotes from the thread when I saw your answer. Someone already answered about Grammaticus. And I have not touched the threads about Know No Fear and The Outcast Dead as I have not read either of them and I'm still a big fan of actually reading up to the surprises in the book. As far as the Signus Prime timeline, I don't know exactly when it happens but in the 40K short Bloodlines by James Swallow which I found in the BA Second Omnibus, at the end it has a scene from the HH saying "'Our liege-lord's brother, the Warmaster Horus Lupercal, has given us a duty that only the Blood Angels are capable of,' said the Sanguinary Guard. 'We are to bring the light of the Imperium to the worlds of the Signus cluster.'" So either it happened just before, during or just after the Betrayal and Massacre. I would hazard that by the time they got there it happened alongside the Massacre, but before they heard about it, as a Bloodthirster is summoned and since the Gal Vorbak could not fully bring their daemons to bear until the Massacre itself. May even have happened alongside Calth since the way the warp fluctuates time, it could be anywhere during that time period in the early years of the HH. Either way they made it back to Terra in time for tea and biscuits.

 

And since you pointed out that the warp storms had cleared, I definitely present my case for the Lion providing transportation for at least some of the Ultramarines. And I believe Gree said that Gulliman found out about Vulkan's death in Know No Fear. But you do present an overwhelming case for at least Johnson's loyalty. Again, only BL and GW decides what happens with the fluff and since Corax went from cloning to using super-geneseed there is no real telling where it could end up. Well there is but I hope you get my drift.

[b1soul]

I should also point out that in the Fantasy Flight fluff (for what it's worth), the AL are most definitely Chaos traitors

[Legatus]

At the very least, Gulliman and Johnson should have tried to find a way to at least find the weak point since Johnson would have ships if relative location to Calth determined the severity of the warp storms.

That may be exactly what will happen. Or maybe the Ultramarines were able to rebuild their own fleet in the two years they had been cut off. We are not yet told what happened in the remaining five years of the Heresy. 'Rules of Engagement' and 'Savage Weapons' take place roughly two years into the Heresy. The Ultramarines had not acted for those two years (apart from running through training scenario after scenario), but now contact has been re-established. You seem to assume that they will be doing nothing for the next five years either. That is, of course, what the original fluff had said. But the original fluff had also said that they only learned about the heresy when Terra was already under attack, so that's done away with. They are likely to get a lot of engagements retconned in.

Btw, during 1st Edition of 40K (or rather the Epic edition that was released at that time), the Ultramarines had several battles during the Heresy attributed to them, as I have documented here. That had all of course been changed when 2nd Edition had been released, and they were then said to not have participated at all untill the very end. But at least it is somewhat of a precedent that at some point, in the ancient times of Rogue Trader, the Ultramarines were heavily involved in the Horus Heresy wars.

 

 

And I have not touched the threads about Know No Fear and The Outcast Dead as I have not read either of them and I'm still a big fan of actually reading up to the surprises in the book.

Heh, to me, surprises are what I dread most about the Horus Heresy novels. :(

 

 

I should also point out that in the Fantasy Flight fluff (for what it's worth), the AL are most definitely Chaos traitors

And that is, of course, what they are in the current 40K era as well. The Horus Heresy books have confused the issue as to how they got there, claiming that they might have had some kind of noble inention in siding with Horus, as opposed to relishing the chance to fight other Space Marine Legions. But there is not really any kind of doubt that the Alpha Legion of today are Chaos Space Marines on the side of Chaos.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah I guess I did forget about the other five years. But they must have had some ships of they were moving from planet to planet to do the training scenarios. I don't know. It might be because I want the Primarchs to be humanized.

[eyeslikethunder]

I like the new alpha legion motivation

 

As to them being wholehearted chaos worshippers in 40k i'm not sure they might still be tied to the cabal defeating chaos from inside. I thought their actions were associated with long term setbacks for chaos while appearing to be loyal to chaos.

 

They are certainly traitors though....

[Unintentional Batman]

But there is not really any kind of doubt that the Alpha Legion of today are Chaos Space Marines on the side of Chaos.

 

You don't know that. You only have GW/BL/Fantasy Flight/etc. fluff to base your opinion on. And for all we know, every piece of said fluffs might be Legion mis- or disinformation.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

But there is not really any kind of doubt that the Alpha Legion of today are Chaos Space Marines on the side of Chaos.

 

You don't know that. You only have GW/BL/Fantasy Flight/etc. fluff to base your opinion on. And for all we know, every piece of said fluffs might be Legion mis- or disinformation.

 

 

Now you're just being obtuse. GW has stated that the Codices are canon, period. C:SM distinctly states that the White Scars claimed the head of Voldorius, an Alpha Legion daemon prince, as a prize once. They traffic in daemonic powers, ergo they are Chaos worshippers. Case closed.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Haven't they also said that they're written in an in-universe style, so a lot of it could be interpreted as propaganda? Or was that one of the BL authors?

[igotsmeakabob!!]

But there is not really any kind of doubt that the Alpha Legion of today are Chaos Space Marines on the side of Chaos.

 

You don't know that. You only have GW/BL/Fantasy Flight/etc. fluff to base your opinion on. And for all we know, every piece of said fluffs might be Legion mis- or disinformation.

 

 

Now you're just being obtuse. GW has stated that the Codices are canon, period. C:SM distinctly states that the White Scars claimed the head of Voldorius, an Alpha Legion daemon prince, as a prize once. They traffic in daemonic powers, ergo they are Chaos worshippers. Case closed.

And that's exactly what the Alpha Legion wants you to think...

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Haven't they also said that they're written in an in-universe style, so a lot of it could be interpreted as propaganda? Or was that one of the BL authors?

 

The Index Astartes articles were written in-universe, and thus is plagued by inaccuracies and anecdotal info. The codex fiction is truth (.... I don't know how that makes sense, but it does), presented in a third-person narrative that sometimes contains info that could be known by a omniscient narrator. For instance, Kaldor Draigo burning down Nurgle's Garden. Being such a paragon of all that is good and awesome, he's not likely to brag about it, and I doubt the Chaos Gods included that particular factoid in their monthly newsletter.

[Legatus]

If Codices were only written with common in-universe knowledge, then the Dark Angels and the Black Templars would have little background. There wouldn't really be much on the Horus Heresy either. Often details are left deliberately open, but in other instances the narration is clearly omniscient.

[Kol Saresk]

And when a narrative is omniscient, it can miss a lot. Just look at the what the history books say about the Civil War. Very few of them mention the prison in Kansas City that was filled with Confederate women and children that collapsed around their heads and killed everyone forced to be there. Not one mentions that the reason Andersonville was so bad was because a certain Union general went around the Georgia countryside burning and pillaging every town he came across while destroying the railroad system. The reality is when you come to the US Civil War, both sides were as wrong as the other and slavery was not what the war was fought over no matter how you slice it.

[Iron Lord]

Now you're just being obtuse. GW has stated that the Codices are canon, period. C:SM distinctly states that the White Scars claimed the head of Voldorius, an Alpha Legion daemon prince, as a prize once. They traffic in daemonic powers, ergo they are Chaos worshippers. Case closed.

 

 

There may be a mixture. The dying Alpha Legionary in Deathwatch: The Emperor Protects actually helps the party (if you let him) and dies with the words "Only the Emperor protects".

 

But in both older and newer fluff, there are Chaos Alpha Legionaries as well.

 

It could be that some retain the old agenda, and some have turned fully to Chaos.

[Kol Saresk]

And according to "canon", the Night Lords should not have any daemon princes. Yet we have Krieg Acerbus and until the Siege of Vraks Imperial Armour Volumes, we had Periclitor the Forsworn.

 

 

EDIT: My mistake, it is Volume Nine, Part one of the Badab War that makes the change.

[Unintentional Batman]

But there is not really any kind of doubt that the Alpha Legion of today are Chaos Space Marines on the side of Chaos.

 

You don't know that. You only have GW/BL/Fantasy Flight/etc. fluff to base your opinion on. And for all we know, every piece of said fluffs might be Legion mis- or disinformation.

 

 

Now you're just being obtuse.

 

Not at all. You don't seem to realize that you can't trust what GW says. I mean even the CEO of Games Workshop might be nothing more but a Legion plant. Alpharius is good enough to break the fourth wall, there's whole companies devoted to nothing else than meta-level actions. There's a pretty good chance that any and all "imbalances" and "bad" rules that are in 40K are because Alpha Legion sneaked them in there without GW realizing it.

 

Matt Ward is actually a Legion operative, that I am certain of.

[Legatus]

Well, doesn't that prove their malicious intent?

[Kol Saresk]

Haha that's funny. And yet it would make so much sense.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

And according to "canon", the Night Lords should not have any daemon princes. Yet we have Krieg Acerbus and until the Siege of Vraks Imperial Armour Volumes, we had Periclitor the Forsworn.

 

 

EDIT: My mistake, it is Volume Nine, Part one of the Badab War that makes the change.

 

well, i figure that over 10k years the violently insane Night Lords start compromising themselves in minor ways...like trafficing in daemons and jaywalking.

 

WLK

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Night Lords also have the Exatled from ADB's novels. He may never have left his ship, but the physical description of him certainly seems to fit as a daemon prince.

[Kol Saresk]

He was possessed. In Soul Reaver it is said that he is scared because the daemon is growing stronger. But then in Blood Reaver the daemon takes control and you actually the daemon's POV where it is seeking the remainder of the Astartes' psyche/soul so it can purge it from its host body. The Exalted stayed on the ship because the host was a superb commander in void warfare.

[Unintentional Batman]

Matt Ward is actually a Legion operative, that I am certain of.

Well, doesn't that prove their malicious intent?

 

Haha, that is brilliant.

 

*bows to superior Fu*