Crynn Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 If FNP help you make three saves on a Pallies Squad then he has made his points back. Not true. In most cases you will get hit by an instant death weapon at some point and will simply place it on a wounded model that the apoc may ahve saved. The model dies from the weapon and loses it's remaining wound insteas of the two it would have had if the apoc had saved meaning the apocs fnp saving a wound actually counts for nothing. This scenario happens more often than not hence my comment of a bout 1 in 15 of my paladin death comes from a non instant death or FnP allowing wound. Remember FnP also does nothing against things like rapid fire plasma. Not to mention you completely ignored my other point of the apoc having to do more than just stop 3 saves if you had essentially 1.5 more paladins they would also be doing additional dmg to the enemy causing the enemy to take more loses and you to take less.So no, passing 3 FnP saves does not even get an apoc close to making it's points back. Regards, Crynn It does have a Force Weapon so it can still kill stuff the same as a normal paladin. Are you just being obtuse? 75 points is equivilant to 1.5 MORE paladins in the unit which would be killing other units thus reducing the damage you take back in shooting and in combat. Thus making 3 FnP saves doesn't come close to accounting for the cost of a apothacary upgrade. I'm being trolled here right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245847-apothecary-math/page/2/#findComment-2981648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrywalker Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 I'm playing 10K+ apocalypse against chaos in a week or two and for that i think i will take my apothecaries, theres enough big scary things in apocalypse to make even paladins pretty killable. Also i have pretty much all the points i could want Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245847-apothecary-math/page/2/#findComment-2981654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Heretic Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I'm playing 10K+ apocalypse against chaos in a week or two and for that i think i will take my apothecaries, theres enough big scary things in apocalypse to make even paladins pretty killable. Also i have pretty much all the points i could want Well, good for you :D I join the choir, on the 'apothecaries are useless'-side of the fence. When people take the apothecaries, they usually want to cash in on their investment. They do this by maximizing the paladin squad - reducing the upgrade to 7.5 pts per marine. Doing this however then forces you to create a deathstar - minimum 625pts without upgrades, more than a third of a standard 1750 tournament army - this is just overkill. 2 units of 5 will perform better and have the ability to spread/combine their fire/charges, so they'll hit as hard as the full ten when needed, but with more mobility and tactical flexibility. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245847-apothecary-math/page/2/#findComment-2981730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I have to disagree slightly about 2 5 man's being better then a 10man, especially if you attach Draigo to the unit. A 10man can be combat squaded, giving flexibililty, and can also suffer more wounds before losing models.I agree that apothecarys are not really worth it though :D Though this could be due to my playing style or opponents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245847-apothecary-math/page/2/#findComment-2981785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormshadow Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I love to play in tournaments and do so as often as I can. But still I care a lot less about winning then I do about the fluff and spreading death and terror around my mighty Gray knights. This is why I take Apothecaries as often as I possibly can (which isn’t as often as I would like :D ). My paladins seldom get into close combat, it’s only when I am speed bumped or someone actually think he has a better deathstar than me, so mostly they walk and shoot, and walk and shoot. There targets are always the things that can shoot back with S8 AP2, and so they get a lot of small arms fire from insignificant things like Stern Guards, Scouts, Tacticals and the like, while dealing with the real threat. It’s not good for the morale if my paladins fall from such pesky irritations and that is why like to have FNP. I so adore to see my opponents eyes light up when I roll two or three ones, and then see his spirits being crushed as I save all wounds with FNP and move 6” closer. It’s so funny to hear them repeat over and over again “you should only have saved half of those” as may wale of death continues to move across the table without any wounds suffered. But here’s a tip: If you are ONLY in it to win it, don’t listen to me :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245847-apothecary-math/page/2/#findComment-2981813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Heretic Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I have to disagree slightly about 2 5 man's being better then a 10man, especially if you attach Draigo to the unit. A 10man can be combat squaded, giving flexibililty, and can also suffer more wounds before losing models.I agree that apothecarys are not really worth it though :) Though this could be due to my playing style or opponents. Thats not really what I said. I said that people have a tendency to do this, when they use an apothecary - and adding Draigo for that matter - to get the most out of the upgrade. But thats a 900+ point unit that can only engage 1 target per turn. Compare this to having 3 300 point units that can engage several targets, combine fire and divide your opponents attention threeways. Whether you buy 10 dudes with one FOC slot or two is really irrelevant - but I agree that there is no reason not have the option of using a 10 man squad :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245847-apothecary-math/page/2/#findComment-2981836 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Well, my opinion is based on only using paladins in a Draigo wing force :) 1 squad of 10 is better for grand strategy. While it can only engage 1 target a turn, it can withstand a lot of fire power. Adding an apothecary just seems a waste as the majority of injuries I sustain are from low ap weaponry, or from instant death causing injuries. I also like taking normal wounds, as then I don't feel bad about assigning an instant death causing shot to them. (oh you caused 2 wounds? And now 2 hits from that powerfist? Yeah its going on those wounded guys :) ). And I agree that if I took an apothecary I would rarely split up my deathstar, though I rarely split them up anyway, same reason I dont take a banner :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245847-apothecary-math/page/2/#findComment-2981870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the Silvercoat Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I'm being trolled here right? I was on the last couple of post. But back on topic. Yes Apoc are good if you have the extra points to get them otherwise you can find something else. I tried making a Draigowing list last night and I couldn't find the points to put Apoc in it because I need more of something else or what not. Not saying that Apoc are bad just that you may not be able to find the points for them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245847-apothecary-math/page/2/#findComment-2981959 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the Silvercoat Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 And I agree that if I took an apothecary I would rarely split up my deathstar, though I rarely split them up anyway, same reason I dont take a banner :D What is wrong with the Banner? I know you lose a Force Weapon but in a 10 man squad you gain more than enough attacks back and you don't have to roll for the test to activate the Force weapons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245847-apothecary-math/page/2/#findComment-2981961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Mainly because at 1500 points I can't afford it, and I haven't really needed it so far, well, I've won way more then I have lost without ever using a banner or an apothecary. My 1500 force has 15points free after having everything i want... I can see their uses (banner more then apothecary), but i just keep forgetting to add them... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245847-apothecary-math/page/2/#findComment-2981990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zagman Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Seriously, the book has been out this long and people are still trying to argue for the Apothecary? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245847-apothecary-math/page/2/#findComment-2985772 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Seriously, the book has been out this long and people are still trying to argue for the Apothecary? Attribute it to bleedover from the fact that in every other Codex the Apothecary is a good buy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245847-apothecary-math/page/2/#findComment-2985789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrywalker Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 ok so when would the apothecary be good? ie what points would it need to be for you to take it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245847-apothecary-math/page/2/#findComment-2985792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zagman Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 ok so when would the apothecary be good? ie what points would it need to be for you to take it? IMO Never. I brought Driagowing to Ard Boyz Prelims/Semis/Finals and placed without ever fielded one. Paladins are virtually indestructible to small arms already, spending even more pts to make them twice as indestructible is a waste at the cost of 1.5 paladins. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245847-apothecary-math/page/2/#findComment-2985796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrywalker Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 sorry i wasnt clear, i meant how many points would the apothecary need to cost before you'd buy it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245847-apothecary-math/page/2/#findComment-2985797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 ok so when would the apothecary be good? ie what points would it need to be for you to take it? IMO Never. I brought Driagowing to Ard Boyz Prelims/Semis/Finals and placed without ever fielded one. Paladins are virtually indestructible to small arms already, spending even more pts to make them twice as indestructible is a waste at the cost of 1.5 paladins. +1 +1 +1 +1 This is just the cold hard truth. Sometimes, wait many times GW just costs things wrong, and this apoc for 75 points is completely overcosted. at 50 it would be acceptable at 30-35 maybe worth it because the fact is Paladins do not die to weight of fire. Regards, Crynn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245847-apothecary-math/page/2/#findComment-2985798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marid Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 When 6th edition comes out we can ponder this question again. Wound assignment shenanigans may not be allowed anymore. At 1.5 paladins, it'll still be a tough sell though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245847-apothecary-math/page/2/#findComment-2985860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrywalker Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 you never know, feel no pain itself might change. might be able to save ap 2 sor something, unlikely though Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245847-apothecary-math/page/2/#findComment-2985863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 There's definitely a chance 6th edition will change things up, especially since Feel no Pain is one of the most prolific USRs in the game. However, I have to agree with other posters that 75 points is going to be a hard sell no matter what; like other folks have said, sometimes GW just overprices or underprices things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245847-apothecary-math/page/2/#findComment-2985902 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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