What happened on Eskrador.

[Castiel]

Hello there.

 

I was thinking about Alpharius recently due to Deliverance Lost and I was wondering about the events on Eskrador. My questions run thus:

 

1) Did it go straight to fighting, or did Alpharius and Gulliman meet?

 

2) Was there any contact between the Legions before Eskrador?

 

Basically, what I was thinking was: Is it possible that Alpharius tried to rejoin the Imperium following the HH? Or was he telling Gulliman about the Cabal and what really happened and/or providing him with info on the traitor Legions, and the fight on Eskrador was just a cover up?

 

What are your thoughts on the matter?

 

Castiel

[Perrin]

Could be a cover up, wouldnt suprise me :ph34r:

I think they fought for a while, got locked in a stalemate, then RG decided to go against the Codex and charge the AL base. But thats just the official story, and as i cant think of any other time RG has gone against his codex maybe that was made up to disguise Alpharius passing info to Gulliman? Dno, but interesting idea :)

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

...Stays on Eskrador ;)

[Kol Saresk]

It's possible but I don't think Gulliman would be the kind of guy to sacrifice who-knows-how-many members of his First Company just to hide a secret. Of course as I say this Rules of Engagement is popping into my head where Gulliman's strategies seem to focus on the greater good rather than the individual despite what he says at the end so who knows?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I don't think the events of Eskrador even took place. Look at the source: an Inquisitor who is likely to be an Alpha Legion plant, and even the Ultramarines do not accept the recordings that Inquisitor Kravin "recovered." You'd think that an event as important and earth-shattering as the death of a Traitor Primarch would be something to trumpet aloud to anyone who would listen, but the Ultras don't do that. As always, Alpharius is using misinformation to achieve his goals by making the Imperium think he is dead.

[Legatus]

I don't think it happened either, but more due to the account's inherent inconsistencies. I think the Inquisitor presenting the account was legit, just the account that he found was not.

 

Some Inconsistencies:

 

- The rocky terrain is described as being chosen by Alpharius deliberately so the Ultramarines would be at a disadvantage. This not only ignores that Guilliman's very first (and very successful) military campaign had been in just such terrain, but that the Ultramarines' own fortress monastery is situated in such a kind of terrain on Macragge as well.

--> The Ultramarines should have been quite capable to fight in such an environment.

 

- Guilliman is described as "going against his Codex" by surprising Alpharius. Apparently it had not occurred to Guilliman during two hundred years of war that outguessing the enemy commander is essential to successful warfare, so that kind of novel approach was "against the Codex".

--> The Codex should not suggest approaches that are explicitely expected by the enemy commander, and should rather make it a priority not to provide him with such an advantage.

 

- The Ultramarines were entirely unable to react in any way to the guerilla methods of the Alpha Legion, not only suggesting that the Ultramarines had never encountered any opponent during the two hundred year Great Crusade that was using such methods against a Space Marine Legion, but specifically ignoring that Guilliman had observed and debated the underhanded methods of Alpharius on different occasions. (First in a heated debate with Alpharius himself about proper doctrine, then while reviewing and condemning Alpharius' methods during the battle for tesstra Prime.)

--> Guilliman should have had an idea about how the Alpha Legion was going to fight and the Ultramarines should have been at least somewhat prepared.

 

- At one point it is described how the Thunderhawks of both Legions are engageing in firefights in the skies of Eskrador. It is pointed out that, since both Legions "of course" have a very similar number of Thunderhawks, no side was able to gain an advantage.

--> As two and a half times the size of an average Legion, the Ultramarines should not have had a "similar number of Thunderhawks" as the Alpha Legion.

 

- While Alpharius is in command, Guilliman is able to successfully surprise the Alpha Legion, which the Alpha Legion had not anticipated. After Alpharius is defeated, the Ultramarines cannot land a single successfull action against the Alpha Legion, which in turn can strike blow after blow against the Ultramarines.

--> While Alpharius had trained his Legion to operate independently of him, that still should not make a Primarch-less Alpha Legion significantly more capable than one led by their Primarch.

[Marshal Rohr]

Being familiar with how you fight in rocky terrain doesnt mean you still arnt disadvantaged by it. Ask anyone who's done several tours to Afghanistakistan. ^_^

[Legatus]

Well, first off, when you say "being familiar", are you meaning that like "it's their home turf", or more like "they had some training once"? And second, maybe I find it so objectionable because the Ultramarines had been described as being completely incapable to deal with the situation, which I would not have expected if a force was "familiar" with that kind of environment.

[Marshal Rohr]

Well, the account was false. So what the Ultramarines did or failed to do actually didn't happen. I'm just saying the mountains of Macragge may be their home turf, but Eskrador is an entire different kettle of geographical fish, man. Those mountains could've been like where I live, where its soft and rolling mountains covered in trees. It could've been like the Rockies, where its steep and craggy. It could've been like the Himalayas or Hindu Kush.

 

My point is, I can find my way around Dahlonega and Camp Merril pretty easy, and when the zombies or the commies come I can be ok. But if I have to hide from zombies or the commies in Brecon Beacons or the Urals I'm pretty screwed.

[Legatus]

Well, the account was false.

I wish. But I don't think GW will be going that road. I think they will make it a thing. IIRC one BL novel mentions the Battle of Eskrador (forgot which one), mentioning tapestries in nearby systems depicting the event, and the battle being infamous as being one of the first big defeats of the Ultramarines. Though this could of course all still be based on myths started by the falsified account that had been discovered.

 

The Deathwatch "First Founding" book also mentions the battle, on page 78 as part of the Alpha Legion background. It is described straight forward, without any "supposedly" or "based on an account that was found". It does not come off as quite as devastating for the Ultramarines, though.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

- At one point it is described how the Thunderhawks of both Legions are engageing in firefights in the skies of Eskrador. It is pointed out that, since both Legions "of course" have a very similar number of Thunderhawks, no side was able to gain an advantage.

--> As two and a half times the size of an average Legion, the Ultramarines should not have had a "similar number of Thunderhawks" as the Alpha Legion.

 

Deliverance Lost might bring this one into question. we dont know what supplies may have been looted during the HH by the Alpha Legion, who are the boogeymen of the 30k history...but i agree with you. this incident is a sham in my opinion.

 

EDIT: Spelling

 

WLK

[Legatus]

Now that you mention it, the Collected Visions also mentions heavy fleet casualties during the Word bearer's initial strike at Calth, which could also explain why the Ultramarines might have been short on Thunderhawks. But I don't think that either (Deliverance Lost explaining more AL Thunderhawks, Collected Visions explaining fewer UM Thunderhawks) of these explanations had existed when the IA AL account of the battle had been written. And even if one takes any of these explanations into account, the reported account of the battle for Eskrador should still not say "both Legions have, of course, a similar number of Thunderhawks". So the similar number can still be seen as an inconsistency at teh time the IA AL account had been written.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Now that you mention it, the Collected Visions also mentions heavy fleet casualties during the Word bearer's initial strike at Calth, which could also explain why the Ultramarines might have been short on Thunderhawks. But I don't think that either (Deliverance Lost explaining more AL Thunderhawks, Collected Visions explaining fewer UM Thunderhawks) of these explanations had existed when the IA AL account of the battle had been written. And even if one takes any of these explanations into account, the reported account of the battle for Eskrador should still not say "both Legions have, of course, a similar number of Thunderhawks". So the similar number can still be seen as an inconsistency at teh time the IA AL account had been written.

 

Yea, i agree wth you, but thought i would point that little bit out before somebody had a "stroke of genius" and brought it up as evidence that it could have happened.

 

I find the entire event fishy for one main reason: If a traitor Primarch had been confirmed to be killed, I think the Imperium (and the Ultramarines) would have made some real note of the event.

 

since we have it from a single source, which is later revealed to be a AL agent , i gotta call BS on the entire event.

 

WLK

[Legatus]

True, it is not pointed out in any Ultramarines fluff that Guilliman had defeated another Primarch in battle. That makes the account indeed seem suspect. The Index Astartes Alpha Legion even points out that representatives of the Ultramarines Chapter have questioned the autenticity of the account.

 

I still don't think the Inquisitor presenting the account was an agent of the Alpha Legion, though. He is later pursued for that, but he had been the one urging the Inquisition to look further into the dealings of the Alpha Legion when others had declared them extinct. It seems to me more that he was framed, ironically as being in league with the scheming Traitor Legion he was trying to combat. I think that would be the kind of thing the Alpha Legion might do to someone snooping around in their affairs.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I still don't think the Inquisitor presenting the account was an agent of the Alpha Legion, though. He is later pursued for that, but he had been the one urging the Inquisition to look further into the dealings of the Alpha Legion when others had declared them extinct. It seems to me more that he was framed, ironically as being in league with the scheming Traitor Legion he was trying to combat. I think that would be the kind of thing the Alpha Legion might do to someone snooping around in their affairs.

 

Hah!

 

I never thought of that, and the 40k grimdark irony there is staggering...so it must be true!

 

WLK

[Legatus]

It seems obvious in the box about "The Ikrilla Conclave" at the end of the AL Index Astartes article. In that Conclave it had among other issues been discussed how the Alpha Legion was able to create new Marines, since they are not based in the Eye of Terror and thus do not have the same unnatural longevity of the other Traitor Legions:

 

In his adress to the Ikrilla Conclave, an impassionate Inquisitor Kravin warned, "The only possible answer is that new Chaos Space Marines are being recruited and genetically modified somewhere within the Imperium. Yet Terra refuses to acknowledge there is even a serious threat! They are all around us - just look over your shoulder! Perhaps when you are attacked in your own cities, and murdered in your own homes, then you will see I am right."

(IA: AL, 'The Ikrilla Conclave')

 

It goes on to say that shortly after that, Inquisitor Kravin was publicly accused of conspiring with traitors by another Inquisitor. He was challenged to appear in trial, but his whereabout remains unknown. The accusations have called all of the information presented by Inquisitor Kravin into question.

 

The description above does not exactly sound like someone working for the Alpha Legion to me.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The description above does not exactly sound like someone working for the Alpha Legion to me.

 

 

Which is exactly why I think he is, in fact, working for them! Maybe its because I'm paranoid, or maybe its because I'm in the Intelligence field and see threats around every corner by inclination as a result, but I'm certain Kravin was a plant.

 

Think about it. The High Lords have declared the Alphas destroyed. The Alphas undoubtedly know this when it happens, which gives them an opportunity to make moves all but unseen and unsuspected throughout the Imperium. Could be a good thing.

 

However, think about the Legion's MO. Sure, they like to move the chess pieces without anyone the wiser, but we have not yet seen them take any offensive action without the other side knowing who it is that is attacking them. At Chondax (I think it was; someone check CV for me? I'm at work...), they fought the Wolves and Scars to a stand-still under their own colors. When they turned on Namatjira's Expedition at the end of Legion, they did so in their own colors. They want the Imperium to know who it is that has out-thought and out-fought them when the time comes.

 

Back to our scenario. The only person being vocal about the Legion's survival is our friend, Inquisitor Kravin (a permutation of craven, meaning coward, by the way), and his proclamation so kindly provided by Legatus is a little bit extreme. It seems to me that he was trying to "pump up" the threat the Alpha Legion posed to his compatriots to draw more attention to them and their actions. It is a sideways version of the Night Lords; rather than let their reputation speak for itself, the Legion had Kravin trying to inflate their reputation for them. Linked to the diversionary tactics mentioned earlier in the IA -- specifically, the call-out box where the Legion threatens one world in a system, waits for the system defenses to concentrate there, and then strikes another planet in the system that is now under-defended -- this rather roundabout way of looking at things makes perfect sense.

 

But then again, that's just me.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

*HEAD EXPLODES*

 

WLK

[Iron Father Ferrum]

*HEAD EXPLODES*

 

WLK

 

Yeah. . . I sometime have that effect on people.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Actually, I like that theory. The Alpha Legion have always had a desire to prove themselves to others, so it makes sense for them to continue it now. Basically, they're the 40k equivalent of the Riddler. They come up with incredibly complex plots, executed to perfection, with you never suspecting a thing, but when they strike, they want you to know who beat you. They want their opponents to know the Alpha Legion were superior to them, and that they couldn't win.

[Castiel]

This is very interesting, please continue!

[Sgt.Sangha]

It seems obvious in the box about "The Ikrilla Conclave" at the end of the AL Index Astartes article. In that Conclave it had among other issues been discussed how the Alpha Legion was able to create new Marines, since they are not based in the Eye of Terror and thus do not have the same unnatural longevity of the other Traitor Legions:

 

In his adress to the Ikrilla Conclave, an impassionate Inquisitor Kravin warned, "The only possible answer is that new Chaos Space Marines are being recruited and genetically modified somewhere within the Imperium. Yet Terra refuses to acknowledge there is even a serious threat! They are all around us - just look over your shoulder! Perhaps when you are attacked in your own cities, and murdered in your own homes, then you will see I am right."

(IA: AL, 'The Ikrilla Conclave')

 

It goes on to say that shortly after that, Inquisitor Kravin was publicly accused of conspiring with traitors by another Inquisitor. He was challenged to appear in trial, but his whereabout remains unknown. The accusations have called all of the information presented by Inquisitor Kravin into question.

 

The description above does not exactly sound like someone working for the Alpha Legion to me.

STOP THE PRESSES!!

look at what you just said...the alpha legion may be recruiting traitor marines since they should not have a way to create new marines out of the eye of terror? But didnt they steal that technology from the Corax in deliverance lost? Wouldnt that explain their ability to rebuild losses that they suffer without having to constantly go to the eye of terror? In fact I think thats a brilliant plan and it works in the long run for sustainability for the Alpha Legion... HOLY EMPEROR MALCADOR!!! THATS SHEER DIABOLICAL GENIUS!!!! We should tell everyone!

 

...sound of closet door opening...

Sgt.Sangha: who in the name of holy terra, are you?

(reaches for his kirpan)

Unknown: I am Alpharius.

 

BANG!!

(sound of body hitting floor)

[Kol Saresk]

Legatus was referencing older material. Deliverance Lost is still relatively new as far as fluff goes.

[Castiel]

It seems obvious in the box about "The Ikrilla Conclave" at the end of the AL Index Astartes article. In that Conclave it had among other issues been discussed how the Alpha Legion was able to create new Marines, since they are not based in the Eye of Terror and thus do not have the same unnatural longevity of the other Traitor Legions:

 

In his adress to the Ikrilla Conclave, an impassionate Inquisitor Kravin warned, "The only possible answer is that new Chaos Space Marines are being recruited and genetically modified somewhere within the Imperium. Yet Terra refuses to acknowledge there is even a serious threat! They are all around us - just look over your shoulder! Perhaps when you are attacked in your own cities, and murdered in your own homes, then you will see I am right."

(IA: AL, 'The Ikrilla Conclave')

 

It goes on to say that shortly after that, Inquisitor Kravin was publicly accused of conspiring with traitors by another Inquisitor. He was challenged to appear in trial, but his whereabout remains unknown. The accusations have called all of the information presented by Inquisitor Kravin into question.

 

The description above does not exactly sound like someone working for the Alpha Legion to me.

STOP THE PRESSES!!

look at what you just said...the alpha legion may be recruiting traitor marines since they should not have a way to create new marines out of the eye of terror? But didnt they steal that technology from the Corax in deliverance lost? Wouldnt that explain their ability to rebuild losses that they suffer without having to constantly go to the eye of terror? In fact I think thats a brilliant plan and it works in the long run for sustainability for the Alpha Legion... HOLY EMPEROR MALCADOR!!! THATS SHEER DIABOLICAL GENIUS!!!! We should tell everyone!

 

...sound of closet door opening...

Sgt.Sangha: who in the name of holy terra, are you?

(reaches for his kirpan)

Unknown: I am Alpharius.

 

BANG!!

(sound of body hitting floor)

 

Great, you've killed us a-

 

*thump*

[Sgt.Sangha]

Legatus was referencing older material. Deliverance Lost is still relatively new as far as fluff goes.

thats my point, that old material, posed a question and that question was answered in deliverance lost which is new fluff material