What happened on Eskrador.

[Hellios]

- The rocky terrain is described as being chosen by Alpharius deliberately so the Ultramarines would be at a disadvantage. This not only ignores that Guilliman's very first (and very successful) military campaign had been in just such terrain, but that the Ultramarines' own fortress monastery is situated in such a kind of terrain on Macragge as well.

--> The Ultramarines should have been quite capable to fight in such an environment.

 

- Guilliman is described as "going against his Codex" by surprising Alpharius. Apparently it had not occurred to Guilliman during two hundred years of war that outguessing the enemy commander is essential to successful warfare, so that kind of novel approach was "against the Codex".

--> The Codex should not suggest approaches that are explicitely expected by the enemy commander, and should rather make it a priority not to provide him with such an advantage.

 

- The Ultramarines were entirely unable to react in any way to the guerilla methods of the Alpha Legion, not only suggesting that the Ultramarines had never encountered any opponent during the two hundred year Great Crusade that was using such methods against a Space Marine Legion, but specifically ignoring that Guilliman had observed and debated the underhanded methods of Alpharius on different occasions. (First in a heated debate with Alpharius himself about proper doctrine, then while reviewing and condemning Alpharius' methods during the battle for tesstra Prime.)

--> Guilliman should have had an idea about how the Alpha Legion was going to fight and the Ultramarines should have been at least somewhat prepared.

 

- At one point it is described how the Thunderhawks of both Legions are engageing in firefights in the skies of Eskrador. It is pointed out that, since both Legions "of course" have a very similar number of Thunderhawks, no side was able to gain an advantage.

--> As two and a half times the size of an average Legion, the Ultramarines should not have had a "similar number of Thunderhawks" as the Alpha Legion.

 

- While Alpharius is in command, Guilliman is able to successfully surprise the Alpha Legion, which the Alpha Legion had not anticipated. After Alpharius is defeated, the Ultramarines cannot land a single successfull action against the Alpha Legion, which in turn can strike blow after blow against the Ultramarines.

--> While Alpharius had trained his Legion to operate independently of him, that still should not make a Primarch-less Alpha Legion significantly more capable than one led by their Primarch.

 

I'm going to have to go with M2C and say that all of this is circumstantial...

 

As he said rocky terrain in one place is not the same as it is in another place and I think they key fact should be that the AL picked the place of the battle... at least to a certain degree (or at least this is how I feel and it is the kind of thing the AL like to do). One expects that if you plan to fight an enemy who has soldiers trained and equipped to a similar level to yours and who might well outnumber you that you would choose a place to fight that provides you with an advantage and the enemy with a disadvantage and knowing the Alpha legion they probably prepared the planet some time before the battle took place with tunnels and booby traps. Hell maybe the rocks had some crazy magnetic property that interfered with scans and communications.

 

How many of RGs opponents would have know his Codex off by heart? Oh some sure especially once there HH kicked off and the Codex no doubt has bits about surprising the enemy. This might be referring to some double-triple bluff type situation, maybe you are not giving RG enough credit in this case. Maybe Alpharius was very confident as to how RG would respond and made his plan suitably complex and contorted that RG would have no chance of seeing through all the layers and so would respond to the perceived situation rather than the reality. Then reality came along and RG did see through it or just thought 'hell to this' and did something crazy.

 

As for the G-warfare thing I think the whole thing about the Alpha legion is they change their game plan every time and run multiple game plans at onAs I said if this battle did take place I bet the AL planned this well in advance. If a plan is good enough then any choices the enemy has are bad and they only have a choice they have to decide is how bad they want the outcome to be... Oh and they can also choose to disengage if that is an option... However you can understand why the UMs would be disinclined to disengage but they did so anyway in the end (assuming that this battle took place).

 

As for Thunderhawks... I don't remember their status in the GC/HH although I remember it being mentioned in one of the books. Were they being introduced to replace the Stormbirds at that time? That being the case like other newer bits of equipment being issued different legions had different quantities. Some of this could be to do with distance from Mars. The UMs would have been far away from Mars but one of RGs strengths was logistics and he is famed for keeping his legion well supplied so maybe this would have had a minimal impact. Even so just because he had a bigger legion he might not have been given more if Thunderhawks had just come out of the first run of production and every legion had been given say 500 Thunderhawks. As I say I'm not sure about the Thunderhawks production status so this is a 'what if'. Also Horus may have have nudge supplies towards his friends while depriving his potential enemies before the start of the HH. On top of this you have Battle losses and looting which could have changed the number of Thunderhawks available to both sides.

 

With your last I disagree. One of the key points of the Alpha legion strategy was that a supreme command wasn't needed. The Surprise attack on Alpharius (assuming it was Alpharius) was only successful in the fact that Alpharius was caught by surprise and that Alpharius was killed. RG was actually unsuccessful in this mission, Yes he did mean to kill Alpharius but that was only a means to an end rather than the goal itself. The goal being to break the AL. After the death of Alpharius the UMs might have been able to win some battles or Skirmishes but they couldn't actually make any gains against the Alpha legion because Alpharius wasn't a key to their success in the first place or he didn't die when he was supposed to or you know... his twin. Although his twin hadn't been mentioned at the point this was written.

 

As for people knowing it is the Alpha Legion in all the know reports of battles against Alpha legion... They might have known by the end of the conflict but not always at the start. Possibly the AL want people to know it was them. However if people didn't realise it was the Alpha legion at all why would it be reported as an Alpha legion battle. Very little is written from the ALs point of view so it makes sense that when people who are not part of the AL talk about the AL it is known or suspected that the AL was a party involved.

[Legatus]

I was listing issues with the Alpha Legion Index Astartes story that might suggest that the battle account is indeed meant as a fraud. For that purpose it is entirely irrelevant how the background would later be changed. When the Index Astartes of the Alpha Legion had been written, there had be no two Primarchs and no Stormbirds for example.

 

As he said rocky terrain in one place is not the same as it is in another place

The point of Alpharius chosing rocky terrain was not that this particular rocky terrain was ecpecially difficult to cope with. The point (likely) was to show that the "dogmatic" Ultramarines were unable to operate in such inhospitable environment, while the "super flexible" Alpha Legion was not. But based on their background, that should not be an issue for the Ultramarines. But to be honest I would put this down to the author of the IA not knowing about the Ultramarines' origin, rather than a deliberate attempt to make the account seem implausible.

 

 

How many of RGs opponents would have know his Codex off by heart?

It does not matter why an opponent might be aware of what your next move woudl likely be (it could be due to espionage and reconnaisance, rather than knowing the Codex). It is a basic principle that if he does, then you might want to alter your approach.

 

E.g. you plan a surprise raid, but the enemy recon units learn of that surprise raid. Then maybe don't try that surprise raid anymore.

 

Or you have a certain "general" deployment method, but the enemy knows the Codex and might prepare for that deployment method. Then maybe do not use the "general" deployment method.

 

That's kindergarden strategic thinking, and the suggestion that the Codex would not consider such instances in any way and one would have to go against the Codex to account for such conditions is ridiculous.

 

 

As for the G-warfare thing I think the whole thing about the Alpha legion is they change their game plan every time and run multiple game plans at on

No matter how clever a general is, at the end of the day a conflict will entail that one force attempts to harm another force to achieve victory. There are many variables, maneuvers and ploys that can be attempted to achieve an advantage, to hinder the opponent or to improve one's own odds, but fundamentally it will at some point come down to some kind of damage being inflicted on one of the parties. But there is only so much that can be done, and the opposing force is not inactive and will attempt their own attacks. If one side is especially cunning and adapt at using ruses and ploys, that might give them an advantage. Especially if the opposition was not prepared for such a kind of opponent. If the opposition was prepared for thaht kind of opponent, on the other hand, then naturally the cunning ruses would be less effective than when the opposition wasn't. My point is that the IA:AL account does give the impression that the Ultramarines had not been prepared to fight such a kind of enemy at all, when in reality they should have been prepared. Not only because they would have encountered guerilla forces during their two hundred years of fighting in the great cursade, but because they had seen the Alpha Legion in action on a few occasions ("seen in action" obviously meant as Guilliman debating tactics with Alpharius and reviewing their performance in campaigns). They would not necessarily know what kind of cheap maneuver the Alpha legion would be attempting in particular, but at least they would be fully aware that the Alpha Legion would attempt cheap maneuvers. That alone would allow them to at least cope with the situation. But from the IA:AL description they were entirely unable to.

 

 

As for Thunderhawks... I don't remember their status in the GC/HH although I remember it being mentioned in one of the books. Were they being introduced to replace the Stormbirds at that time?

They were the only Space Marine aircraft at that time. When the Index Astartes article was written. Space Marines have Thunderhawks. The Alpha Legion is a Space Marine Legion. The Ultramarines are a Space Marine Legion. Thus they both have Thunderhawks. The IA:AL story points out that "of course, both Legions have a similar number of Thunderhawks" as if that was a given, seeing as how they are both a Space Marine Legion. But when one of those Legions is commonly known to have been more than twice as large as a regular Legion, then that is not a given. But this might be put down to the authors ignorance again, as unfortunate as that may be. If it is not ignorance on the part of the author, then it might be a deliberate hint that the account was not entirely factual.

 

 

With your last I disagree. One of the key points of the Alpha legion strategy was that a supreme command wasn't needed.

And what I am pointing out is not that in the story the Primarch "wasn't needed", but that the Alpha Legion got better once their Primarch had been removed from the equation.

 

Alpha Legion led by Alpharius --> cannot predict every Ultramarine move, Ultramarines can spot and engage them

 

Alpha Legion without Primarch --> can predict everything the Ultramarines attempt, Ultramarines cannot engage them at all

 

Even if Alpharius had trained his Legion to operate independently, that still should not make them more capable when operating on their own than when they are being led by a Primarch. Being led by a Primarch should still be an advantage, rather than a handicap.

[Gree]

With your last I disagree. One of the key points of the Alpha legion strategy was that a supreme command wasn't needed.

And what I am pointing out is not that in the story the Primarch "wasn't needed", but that the Alpha Legion got better once their Primarch had been removed from the equation.

 

Alpha Legion led by Alpharius --> cannot predict every Ultramarine move, Ultramarines can spot and engage them

 

Alpha Legion without Primarch --> can predict everything the Ultramarines attempt, Ultramarines cannot engage them at all

 

Even if Alpharius had trained his Legion to operate independently, that still should not make them more capable when operating on their own than when they are being led by a Primarch. Being led by a Primarch should still be an advantage, rather than a handicap.

 

I believe the common claim on the internet is that Alpharius died to prove a point so his Legion could then prove their tactical superiority over the Ultramarines.

 

Please don’t get me wrong. I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you. That’s simply the belief I’ve encountered. Many players believe that was done so that even the Primarch-less Alpha Legion was better than the Primarch-led Ultramarines. This reason is usually cited why Guilliman’s Codex methods suck. It was all part of some deliberate convuluted plan by Alpharius. (Including his own death)

 

And that will be my last post in the thread.

[Honda]

Excellent discussion!

 

First off, we'll never really know what is going on and 40K is better off because of it. -_-

 

As far as my opinions go:

 

1. I don't think Kravin was an AL plant, but wouldn't be surprised if his accuser was, as there is a fair bit of irony in causing someone who is close to a figuring out a secret then being neutralized because of accusations against him. Very clever really, as what is the Inquisition/High Lords supposed to think?

 

2. I doubt that Alpharius was killed. It seems in both early and late fluff, that misdirection is a standard tactic employed by the AL. "Oh you rushed all your forces over there, great, we're coming in over here." If nothing else, the AL are very pragmatic. The idea that Alpharius is some how willing to sacrifice his life to prove a point is all very romantic and chivalric, but extremly out of character for him...and his legion.

 

As the HH novels have continued to develop the characters and the legions, I find it interesting how much the legions behave/or not like their primarchs. Contrasting examples are the Iron Hands and Imperial Fists who seem to have not adopted the volcanic tempermant of their primarchs. Then there are those chapters that seem to fully embrace the personal quirks of their primarchs, like the Wolves, Death Guard, and the Dark Angels.

 

What has always struck me as interesting is how closely aligned in temperment (ref: Dan Abnett's Legion), the AL are to Alpharius/Omegan. That is why I've never subscribed to the myth that Alpharius was slain. He's much more pragmatic than that.

 

My two yen.

[Legatus]

The idea that Alpharius is some how willing to sacrifice his life to prove a point is all very romantic and chivalric, but extremly out of character for him...and his legion.

In the Index Astartes Alpha Legion it had been described so that Alpharius had genuinely been surprised by Guilliman's strike force, and he had not anticipated him attacking his position. I think it was the intent of the author to use that story as a demonstration of how well the Alpha Legion works without a conventional hierarchy, but it had not been Alpharius' intention to sacrifice himself to prove that point.

[Kol Saresk]

What would Alpharius even have to prove? The age-old "I'm better than you?" sorry but better is alive in my book. He's not like the Night Hauntet where he's trying to show everyone that the Emperor is either trying to cover up his own sins or put down a rabid dog. Depending on if you're a follower of Night Haunter or Konrad Curze.

[Clewz]

What would Alpharius even have to prove? The age-old "I'm better than you?" sorry but better is alive in my book. He's not like the Night Hauntet where he's trying to show everyone that the Emperor is either trying to cover up his own sins or put down a rabid dog. Depending on if you're a follower of Night Haunter or Konrad Curze.

 

Totally agree with this. That line from The Usual Suspects always springs to mind, "the greatest trick the devil played was convincing the world he didn't exist". It would so work in Alpharius' favour if the Imperium thought he was dead- no more imperial assassins or personal vendettas from the remaining primarchs.

[DarKnight]

I think you guys are overestimating the tactical knowhow of Graham Davey and the other guys who wrote this piece of fiction. I don't think they had any ulterior motive in mind aside from the fact that it's unconfirmed whether Alpharius was killed by Guilliman. I believe what we're supposed to take away from this is that the Ultramarines were caught wrong footed and were ambushed in Alpha Legion fashion. It happens to the best of them. I don't think it diminishes Guilliman or the Ultramarines.

[Honda]

@DarKnight: I just have to say that the quote in your sig is just epic.

[karden00]

Im throwing my lot in with the Alphalpha is dead camp. Sure, I would love to know that my primarch really did bag n tag a traitor, but I feel like people are taking the whole Alpha Legion theme a little too far. That they are great at misdirection does not mean that their Primarch was too pragmatic or too unconventional to be caught off guard. Being spontaneous does not give you an automatic pass at someone else's spontaneity (I still feel that there is room in the Codex [or if you want to put it that way, Guilliman's 'way of war'] for a surprise attack, but lets not open that can of worms).

A possible solution to the argument that Guilliman never boasted about bagging Alphalpha: Maybe, (and feel free to shoot this down, its just a guess) he had mixed feelings of accomplishment (not pride. Lorgar hitting him to the ground and his stoic reaction makes me feel that he doesnt suffer from too much pride--maybe he doesnt want his legion to either, which is why he is not boastful in character?) and regret at striking down a brother. Sure, a brother that went rogue, broke oaths, betrayed daddy and had to go, but still someone he once thought of as a brother in a very real sense.

Finally, while it is known that the little Alphalpha legionaries made themselves look like big daddy A, I would think a primarch would have some inkling on a latent, subconscious psychic level that he was in fact duelling a fellow primarch, so if the fight actually took place (I think it did) I have to think guilliman (or any other primarch for that matter) would know one of their brothers when they met them.

 

my two canadian dollars

[DarKnight]

@DarKnight: I just have to say that the quote in your sig is just epic.

Thanks man, I'm proud to say I wrote that myself.

[karden00]

Agreed. Epic sig

[Kol Saresk]

Very epic.

[DarKnight]

@Karden00 @Kol Saresk much appreciated brothers.