Deep strike and Drop pod questions

[VE5hQg==]

Hello there everyone. :tu:

 

So yeah just had to ask these questions for one of my friends.

 

The first thing is: When you deep strike a drop pod and it unfolds itself... would he get a 4+ cover save from standing behind them?... you know... (those things i'm pointing at.)

 

http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j413/totallynotabot/Herpderp.jpg

 

(I suppose he would.)

 

Next question: If I deep strike and then use a psychic power that makes me teleport some where else... can I use it, even though it count as deep striking?

 

And last question is from myself: Am I posting the right place?

 

- 01010100 01001110 01100001 01000010

 

[Legatus]

When you deep strike a drop pod and it unfolds itself... would he get a 4+ cover save from standing behind them?

You can agree with your opponents whether the doors grant cover or not. In terms of blocking movement, it is the consensus that as "doors" they are purely decorative and do not count as part of the vehicle model's "body" for the purpose of blocking enemy models. I.e. models are not allowed to move within 1" of an enemy vehicle unless assaulting, but the doors, as a decorative element, do not count. For the same reason I would suggest that they do not grant cover saves, but it is a physical object that might block a line of fire.

 

 

If I deep strike and then use a psychic power that makes me teleport some where else... can I use it, even though it count as deep striking?

I assume you are refering to a homing beacon on top of a drop pod? I do not remember whether there had been a consensu, but my stance had been that homing beacons can NOT be used for units teleporting via a psychic power, since the homing beacon works for units "arriving" on the battlefield.

 

 

Am I posting the right place?

No, this would go in the "official rules" forum. Don't bother making a new thread there, as I am sure a mod will move this one.

[voi shet magir]

The rules for deep strike prohibit gate of infinity being used immediately after arrival by drop pod or teleportation, because of the order in which the actions would have to occur.

[Techmarine Data007]

It's my opinion that the doors are not to be used to form the so called footprint of the vehicle. Related to this is that I don't believe that you should be able to shoot through a drop pod, even with the doors open.

 

Second, I believe the psychic power Gate of Infinity has to be used at the beginning of the movement phase. As such, once you complete the drop pod's deep strike, you're past the phase where you can deep strike other things. Related, I personally think one should be able to use locator beacons for Gate of Infinity because RAW says that the beacons work for any form of deepstrike, and since Marine teleport technology is based on a warp conduit, then any sort of homing technology would have to have some sort of warp presence.

[Grey Mage]

Technically its an open-topped vehicle, and as such you can deploy up to 2" from any part of it- the hatches are normally considered part of the hull on tanks, for example the ramps on a landraider- and you cant walk over it or come within 1" of it.

 

In more practical terms most people arent kosher with this. So I leave my doors up, and just measure the stormbolter from the center of the pods turbine. People who want to complain about that get the flower petal treatment though.

 

And not, gate of infinity wont be usable on a turn where you deepstrike in by other means.

[greatcrusade08]

The rule on whether fins of a drop pod count as part of the hull actually came up for a friend of mine at a local games club league.. and it was abused to serious effect.

basically a Sw player claimed that when deployed the fins are part of the hull and as such he can deploy within 2" of them and they prevent any enemy coming within 1" of them.. he used several pods to create a no go zone behind which he hid his troops, his daemon playing opponent got ripped to shreds as he had to charge the pods first and lost the game.

it also meant he lost the league and the SW player won (top two players).

 

personally i think that interpretation is complete BS, the fins in my mind come unde the heading of decorative items, they arent part of the hull when you land the drop pod so therefore cannot be part of the hull afterwards (fins can open into dangerous terrain without affecting how the DP landed).

also if they are part of the hull, the the owning player wouldnt be allowed to deploy troops on them, which seems to go against wat the Sw player did at the time..

 

some people want everything thier own way, when your that biased, interpreting for gain comes naturally i gess.

 

the only fair way (and it might sounds like RAI, but i prefer to think of it as 'rules as practicable and fair') is to consider the fins as decorative items as you would wings on a daemon prince or sponsons on a land raider, they dont exist for terms of LOS.. furthermore a vehicle only occupies the area of its hull so therefore an enemy CAN stand on the fins of a DP

[Grey Mage]

(fins can open into dangerous terrain without affecting how the DP landed).

Not if your going to play it as part of te hull- the DP is immobile, you cant change its footprint in the game after it lands. So if you want to land petals open, and are playing them as a viable hull etc, then the DP needs a considerably larger area to enter the field.

[greatcrusade08]

(fins can open into dangerous terrain without affecting how the DP landed).

Not if your going to play it as part of te hull- the DP is immobile, you cant change its footprint in the game after it lands. So if you want to land petals open, and are playing them as a viable hull etc, then the DP needs a considerably larger area to enter the field.

 

exactly, for those (who consdier them hull) put the DP down and then open the petals, if those petals land on terrain then they have placed the DP illegally, becuase they cannot enter the game in terrain

[Grey Mage]

Well remember, its only impassable terrain- normal terrain still can be dropped into, and will cause a dangerous terrain test as normal. Mostly its a restriction based on the fact that enemy models are usually going to be in the area you want to drop into, and they can take up enough space to block a fully opened pod quite easily.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

I am with thinking that the doors are not part of the hull because you were be able to disembark within two inches of them and the doors are around 6 inches long giving a unit in a Drop Pod a 8 inch disembark movement in my opinion.

[greatcrusade08]

its one of those rules IMO that is obvious when you apply common sense.. those 'doors' are obviously not part of the hull otherwise it leads to some rediculous rules issues

[the jeske]

is it attched to the model ? yes . is it a banner or something like that to be a decorative thing ? no. is there true LoS and rules for being 1" away from enemy tank ? yes . then that is how it works . Rules are not there to be liked or to make sense they are there to be obeyed . does it give more options to players using them ? sure . But GW dex are full of stuff like that wings which make you move like jump infantry , but dont make you jump infantry so you ride around in transports . Shoting powers not rolling to hit because they dont wound , while other shoting powers that dont wound still have to roll to hit etc.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

the only fair way (and it might sounds like RAI, but i prefer to think of it as 'rules as practicable and fair') is to consider the fins as decorative items as you would wings on a daemon prince or sponsons on a land raider, they dont exist for terms of LOS..

Wait wait wait, is this common practice? You say RAI, is this based on any solid rule though?

[Morollan]

is it attched to the model ? yes . is it a banner or something like that to be a decorative thing ? no. is there true LoS and rules for being 1" away from enemy tank ? yes . then that is how it works . Rules are not there to be liked or to make sense they are there to be obeyed . does it give more options to players using them ? sure .

 

So you also presumably take the stance that friendly models cannot deploy on the ramps, as they are part of the hull, and that if any part of any ramp touches difficult and/or dangerous terrain then the pod is required to take a dangerous terrain test? If so, fine but it sounds to me like the SW player in GC08's post was trying to play it both ways.

[Gentlemanloser]

Siding with GC08 here. (And I'm sure there were a few threads on this topic already!)

 

If the doors are classed as part of the hull;

 

You can deploy anywhere within 2" of an opened door, as the DP is open Topped.

The Doors stop enemy minis moving within 1" of them (and conversuly an enemy can assault the DP from charging the tip of a door)

The Door grant cover

You must deploy the DP with the doors open to check for DS mishap. You cannot land, then open the doors. What happens if a door then lands covering an enemy squad? Or a friendly one? Or in impassable terrain? Or off the board?

 

If the doors are not classed as part of the hull, and are purely decorative;

 

You can't deploy within 2" of them

The doors don't stop enemy movement

The doors don't grant cover

You ignore the position of the doors when you deploy the DP

 

(IIRC the orignal topics were based on folk gluing thier DP doors shut, and disallowing thier oppoennts to shoot thorugh thier DP as you couldn't draw LoS thorugh the perm shut doors...)

[greatcrusade08]

Morollan is correct about my meaning

 

my point is though that no-one can say whether or not the fins are considered part of the hull, ive seen lots of arguments for why they are but tbh none convince me.

are sponsons part of the hull? NO, but according to the jeske they qualify becuase they are attached.

 

If they are part of the hull, then they should be deployed with them open and make necessary dangerous terrain/movement rules, enemy and friendly models alike cannot stand on the petals and model can deploy within 2" of any part, meaning potentially 8" disembark zone from the main stem..

 

if they arent part of the hull, then the petals cannot grant cover saves, because a model cannot bring cover with it.

 

in essence, if you say its RAw that they are part of the hull, show me the sentence stating that fact, otherwise all we have is guesswork, and in terms of common sense we know which is more applicable

 

lol ninja'd by gentlemanloser

[Grey Mage]

It can still grant cover saves- a model can not bring its own cover with it, that doesnt mean it magically turns invisible in reference to everything else.

[greatcrusade08]

It can still grant cover saves- a model can not bring its own cover with it, that doesnt mean it magically turns invisible in reference to everything else.

 

but if its not part of the hull, the its decorative, and decorative items dont grant cover saves, things like banners and wings are deemed invisible for LOS purposes

[dswanick]

It can still grant cover saves- a model can not bring its own cover with it, that doesnt mean it magically turns invisible in reference to everything else.

 

but if its not part of the hull, the its decorative, and decorative items dont grant cover saves, things like banners and wings are deemed invisible for LOS purposes

Not quite. A Decorative Element doesn't grant line of sight - so a Drop Pod can't be targeted if only a door can be seen. You have to see the Hull to fire on a Vehicle. A Decorative Element on unit A (ie a door on a Drop Pod) can still provide a Cover Save to unit B (ie a Tac Squad psoitioned behind it).

[greatcrusade08]

Not quite. A Decorative Element doesn't grant line of sight - so a Drop Pod can't be targeted if only a door can be seen. You have to see the Hull to fire on a Vehicle. A Decorative Element on unit A (ie a door on a Drop Pod) can still provide a Cover Save to unit B (ie a Tac Squad psoitioned behind it).

 

really?

not that im questioning you, but can you provide quote for this, i dont have my rulebook to hand.

[LPetersson]

Hello there everyone. :D

 

So yeah just had to ask these questions for one of my friends.

 

The first thing is: When you deep strike a drop pod and it unfolds itself... would he get a 4+ cover save from standing behind them?... you know... (those things i'm pointing at.)

Are you talking about the drop pod getting cover from it's own doors or about a marine standing so the door is between him and someone shooting at him.

If the former, then no, as others have said, if the latter, then yes.

 

 

The rule on whether fins of a drop pod count as part of the hull actually came up for a friend of mine at a local games club league.. and it was abused to serious effect.

 

And this is why a league/tournament, no matter how small or big, absolutely must have some form of houserules in addition to the 'official' FAQs. otherwise you get into these sort of situations.

[Squirrelloid]

Worth pointing out drop pods never suffer mishaps. Unfolding the doors just means a larger footprint - it still stops before scattering onto enemy squads or impassable terrain.

 

Actually, if they aren't part of the hull, what do you do when your pod stops next to an enemy? Hope you glued your doors up because there's no place to lay it down?

 

I honestly don't know what's supposed to happen, RAW totally unclear here on what the actual footprint of the drop pod is. I always assumed it was the non-door footprint, but I don't think there's any *rules* reason to prefer one to the other.

[Morollan]

Worth pointing out drop pods never suffer mishaps.

 

They do when scattering off the table.

[Gentlemanloser]

They do when scattering off the table.

 

Yup.

 

Actually, if they aren't part of the hull, what do you do when your pod stops next to an enemy? Hope you glued your doors up because there's no place to lay it down?

 

Leave it up until there's space? Blu-tac it shut temporarily? Move the enemy minis on top of it?

 

What you do doesn't really matter, as if it's not hull, it doesn't have any impact on the game.

 

RAW totally unclear here on what the actual footprint of the drop pod is.

 

It's not.

 

It's hull. :angry:

 

The question is do the door count as part of the hull or not. And that's the tricky bit.

 

Personally, I play it as they don't. That makes sense to me.

 

But you can play them as part of the hull. It just means you *have* to rule it all as that. Such as being in melta range if you touch the tip of a door. For example.

[dswanick]

Not quite. A Decorative Element doesn't grant line of sight - so a Drop Pod can't be targeted if only a door can be seen. You have to see the Hull to fire on a Vehicle. A Decorative Element on unit A (ie a door on a Drop Pod) can still provide a Cover Save to unit B (ie a Tac Squad psoitioned behind it).

 

really?

not that im questioning you, but can you provide quote for this, i dont have my rulebook to hand.

"When a unit fires at a vehicle it must be able to see its hull or turret (ignoring the vehicle's gun barrels, antennas, decorative banner poles, etc.)." - BRB, Pg.60

So if the doors are not part of the Hull (and their definitely not a Turret) then only being able to trace LoS to a door wouldn't give the firing unit a shot.

 

"If a target is partially hidden from the firer's view by other models, it receives a 4+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain." - BRB, Pg.21

So any part of a Drop Pod model can partially hide another model, thus providing a Cover save.