Razorback? not good?

[illest]

I was watching a video of supposively the best blood angels player and he says that jump infantry is the better then putting them in razor backs should i switch up my list if this true it woulnt be hard to but is it less competative to have a full mechanize blood angels army?

[Morticon]

Rule 1 of the internet, dont trust what anyone has to say on the internet without knowing the information/facts.

 

 

There are a myriad of things that net bloggers dont account for.

Local meta is the biggest.

 

There's this misguided concept that certain competitive lists and certain competitive builds will always do better than other competitive builds, full stop.

 

In all but extreme situations its complete nonsense.

 

What works for you in YOUR environment is what will work for you. My BA lists do very, very well in local South African meta, but not as well in international (US) competition meta.

 

If, however you're finding something doesnt work for you, and then a suggested net piece of advice works, then by all means go for it.

 

40k list design, in my eyes, is about making your list the Rock to as many Scissors as possible. Someone online, be it me, a member on BnC or a member on any other board/forum doesnt know what your local meta is, so we can only help you in so far as taking generalities and implementing them.

 

So, generally speaking, its not, nor should be: "Jump vs. Razor or else"

Take a look at my links in my sig, and you'll find that every winning list ive fielded has been mixed or "hybrid".

 

There are some armies that will hate playing against Mech, and some armies that hate playing against jumpers. You need to find a balance for what works for you in your environment.

[Enzephalon]

Discussing the effectiveness of single units without the context is pointless. Let alone comparing them to other units.

 

All depends on the mission, the rest of your army, the enemies army, and your style of gaming (+ dice gods).

 

By the way.. Who is the one who claims to be the best BA player?

[the jeske]

so BA DoA better then razorspam ? there must be some hardcore composition which is anti transport for that to work .

[Grey Mage]

You mean like local tau players who know what theyre doing, or SWs that like to spam the heck out of missile launchers? Yeah, taking down razorbacks is frankly pretty easy.

 

No, while Razorspam can be quite competitive its certainly not the most reliable army. If you want them cheap you have to take assault squads- wich means your troops arent shooting, but your tanks are. In the end, its still just an AV 11 transport... wich means that most special weapons will rip them apart, let alone a good sized heavy weapon compliment.

[Enzephalon]

You mean like local tau players who know what theyre doing, or SWs that like to spam the heck out of missile launchers? Yeah, taking down razorbacks is frankly pretty easy.

 

No, while Razorspam can be quite competitive its certainly not the most reliable army. If you want them cheap you have to take assault squads- wich means your troops arent shooting, but your tanks are. In the end, its still just an AV 11 transport... wich means that most special weapons will rip them apart, let alone a good sized heavy weapon compliment.

Well. It's quite obvious that an army sucks if you send them against the worst possible matchup or some sort of tailored list. That applies to every army.

Also he did not mention to spam the razorbacks. (Spamming is the devil)

He just stated RAS > Razorback which isn't true all by itself.

 

And talking about reliability. An all RAS army deepstriking isn't what I would file under reliable, though there are people who manage to have success with it.

[breng77]

I would agree that it depends on your local meta. DOA is very successful when no one in your local meta runs heavy assaulty armies, Dark Eldar, or Grey Knights. It is very good against static gunline armies that don't pack much of a counter punch (basically anything that will rip up assault marines in the assault.). Against more mobile shooty, or assaulty builds I have seen DOA struggle a lot due to lack of long range weapons, and generally mediocre assault power. I will say this I have never seen a DOA list finish high at any GT I have attended (not that that is a lot or means it is bad), nor have I seen Razorspam near the top. What I usually see is a mech BA list including multiple hammers (Mephiston, Terminators, Death Company, Blood Talon Dreads etc.) do well.

[Grey Mage]

You mean like local tau players who know what theyre doing, or SWs that like to spam the heck out of missile launchers? Yeah, taking down razorbacks is frankly pretty easy.

 

No, while Razorspam can be quite competitive its certainly not the most reliable army. If you want them cheap you have to take assault squads- wich means your troops arent shooting, but your tanks are. In the end, its still just an AV 11 transport... wich means that most special weapons will rip them apart, let alone a good sized heavy weapon compliment.

Well. It's quite obvious that an army sucks if you send them against the worst possible matchup or some sort of tailored list. That applies to every army.

Also he did not mention to spam the razorbacks. (Spamming is the devil)

He just stated RAS > Razorback which isn't true all by itself.

 

And talking about reliability. An all RAS army deepstriking isn't what I would file under reliable, though there are people who manage to have success with it.

Except both tau and SWs with lots of missile launchers are common lists that arent tailored to kill BA, but just to preform well. And I was talking about spamming yes, because I was responding to the Jeske, who had said it was the superior way to go so as to provide a counter-point to this relatively common thought.

[SevenExxes]

Anyone who says one unit or one style of army listing or a style of play is the be all and end all of gaming is a *censored by the Inquisition*

[the jeske]

Except both tau and SWs with lots of missile launchers are common lists that arent tailored to kill BA, but just to preform well. And I was talking about spamming yes, because I was responding to the Jeske, who had said it was the superior way to go so as to provide a counter-point to this relatively common thought.

 

and it isnt ? how will doa with a one turn down time deal with a space wolf army which will either have a one free turn of shoting at them or more turns of shoting if they deploy .

yes tau are screwed against doa , but they are against any form fast movin army specialy when it can ignore screens of kroot or devilfish . But DoA has a lot more bad match ups then razorspams . Being good against tau would matter a lot more if a lot of people were playing them[which does not happen right now]. So razorspam is more viable then DoA , like mort says a synergy list works even better but most people are not made to play with an army of singles [and it has its bad sides too it is fragile if something goes very wrong with rolls] .

[ArdezFurioso]

Well for the first time today I played a DoA list instead of my usual razorback setup. I got owned in the face. I lost 2 squads, and my furioso before I decided to surrender - with one squad left on the battlefield(1000 pt match). Meanwhile he hadn't lost a single squad. Usually the end of the match is at least close with my RAS list. I might just not know how the play DoA that well yet, and it may have just been a lot of unlucky things going on for me, but oh well. I probably won't DoA until I read up on the tactics for it a bit more.

[knife&fork]

Well for the first time today I played a DoA list instead of my usual razorback setup. I got owned in the face. I lost 2 squads, and my furioso before I decided to surrender - with one squad left on the battlefield(1000 pt match). Meanwhile he hadn't lost a single squad. Usually the end of the match is at least close with my RAS list. I might just not know how the play DoA that well yet, and it may have just been a lot of unlucky things going on for me, but oh well. I probably won't DoA until I read up on the tactics for it a bit more.

 

It's difficult to run DoA on such low points. I can't get a list I'm satisfied with until I hit 1500. Just keep at it and try to learn from every mistake, you'll get it.

[Xenith]

I played a DoA list...I got owned in the face...

Often the problem with "DoA" lists is that people get hung up on deep striking them in every single time, where often it may be more prudent to set up on board.

 

Space wolves are an example of this. Why would you ever deep strike next to an assault army? Set up on board, then use your mobility to switch flanks and hit only one half of his army.

 

Again, illest, who is supposedly the best BA player?

[knife&fork]

I played a DoA list...I got owned in the face...

Often the problem with "DoA" lists is that people get hung up on deep striking them in every single time, where often it may be more prudent to set up on board.

 

Just because you deep strike doesn't mean you have to do it right in your opponents face. It might just as well be a tool to get in a good position while giving him one less turn to use his superior firepower. Or making him second guess your intentions and messing with his deployment.

[Venerable Jazzman]

Razorbacks with twin lascannons are very useful - cheap antitank which is almost guaranteed to knock out what you aim at

[knife&fork]

Razorbacks with twin lascannons are very useful - cheap antitank which is almost guaranteed to knock out what you aim at

 

Twinlinked lascannons are indeed good anti tank, the best we have outside 24", and together with the 12" move there's no place to hide from them.

 

"Guaranteed" is stretching it though: http://www.twinlinked.net/wp-content/uploa...rineweapons.jpg

[Lord Cuthbert]

I think that there is a point being missed in this discussion. Frankly, if we are discussing competitive play then we have to consider that competitively you will be expected to play multiple missions with the same force. Razor lists and DoA lists approach missions like Objectives and Annihilation differently.

 

I played a game against SW with a Razor list and got my armour completely eliminated. I blew away his couple Razors and he wiped out mine but I ended up winning big because it was an objective game and my vehicles kept my scoring units from getting blasted whether the Marines were in it or hiding behind the wreckage. He had fewer scoring units than I did, so I concentrated on eliminating his scoring units and then sat back waiting for his stationary troops to try and advance to dislodge me. So, even though my Razors were completely owned by his LFs, he couldn't make the push where it mattered, taking objectives.

 

Just some food for thought.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

"Guaranteed" is stretching it though: http://www.twinlinked.net/wp-content/uploa...rineweapons.jpg

Wow. Thank you.

[knife&fork]

"Guaranteed" is stretching it though: http://www.twinlinked.net/wp-content/uploa...rineweapons.jpg

Wow. Thank you.

 

Keep in mind though that the chart doesn't take result 1-3 into consideration which is often all you need to shut something down for a turn. High S weapons like the lascannon and demolisher cannon are even better if you value glancing hits.

[breng77]

At the moment though glancing hits are becoming much less valuable. Grey Knights Effectively ignore 1/2 of all glancing hits (unless you have psychic defense in range) and Necrons basically do the same (more or less ignore shaken, and 50-50 on stunned), so glancing as a general concept has lost a bit of the shine it used to have.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think DoA takes more skill to play and requires an aggressive approach. I have had more success with my DoA than gamers I know who run razorspam. I have seen razorspam taken apart by missile heavy armies - its okay but not what I consider a top tier army.

 

G :angry:

[knife&fork]

At the moment though glancing hits are becoming much less valuable. Grey Knights Effectively ignore 1/2 of all glancing hits (unless you have psychic defense in range) and Necrons basically do the same (more or less ignore shaken, and 50-50 on stunned), so glancing as a general concept has lost a bit of the shine it used to have.

 

True dat.

 

My meta is still guard heavy, so I like having an automatic glance on the side armor of those annoying chimeras.

 

 

I think DoA takes more skill to play and requires an aggressive approach. I have had more success with my DoA than gamers I know who run razorspam. I have seen razorspam taken apart by missile heavy armies - its okay but not what I consider a top tier army.

 

G :angry:

 

It's probably due to meta changing. If we're talking mechanized I think BA does AV13 spam better than pure razor spam anyway.

[JamesI]

I think DoA takes more skill to play and requires an aggressive approach. I have had more success with my DoA than gamers I know who run razorspam. I have seen razorspam taken apart by missile heavy armies - its okay but not what I consider a top tier army.

 

G :angry:

I agree on the agressiveness.

 

But, I play DoA mostly because I find jump packs more fun than Razorbacks.

 

It's probably due to meta changing. If we're talking mechanized I think BA does AV13 spam better than pure razor spam anyway.

AV 13 spam is more interesting to me than Razorback spam. Vindicators/Preds, Baals, Furiosos.

[knife&fork]

Problem is that when you run av13 spam the points are short and you usually end taking RB squads as troops because you get more and cheaper scoring units that way. I never had much luck running jumper mech hybrids.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That's why the mech armies I typically see don't appeal to me - they are too min|maxed. It'll be interesting to see if sixth edition changes things.

 

G :P