Apoc 2

[Emperors Immortals]

Why are there no discussions on the dreadclaw options or contemptor dreads, these two alone have made me start to reinvigorate my chaos horde and anticipate soem new, better victories.

 

Seriously, a skimmer that lets us transport troops and a dread that wont kill me in the back on a bad day are fantastic news to me,how about anyone else?

[dswanick]

There's not a lot of love for Forgeworld rules.

[Emperors Immortals]

...........*sigh*.

 

 

I play fairly casually with friends, so i keep forgetting all of that.

 

It will be in there interest to let me use the units ive been fantasising about for years now in our games, and i cant wait to start!!

 

 

GW - put these units in the new dex.

 

'nuff said.

[Machine God]

Thet also allow non Blood Angels to field Furioso Dreadnoughts!

[the jeske]

I play fairly casually with friends, so i keep forgetting all of that.

does any one of your friend plays an army that gets nothing useful out of FW , like lets say nids or sob ?

the problem is not that FW stuff is too good [not that stuff like lucius pods or castus assault rams are not] for the point it costs , but some armies just get nothing out of FW . People dont like it so they dont use FW and dont let others use the rules too[no man cares about the models other then the owner].

 

 

as the GW put them in the dex . well vendatta are undercosted by around 20-30pts for example . that is not a good example of balanced unit .

[Possessed Marine]

well, the chaos dreads aren't as bad anymore since the FAQ came out, they fire frenzy into their forward 45 degree arc of sight. So just make sure that nothing of yours is standing in front of it & it shouldn't be a problem.

[The Prophet]

Why are there no discussions on the dreadclaw options or contemptor dreads, these two alone have made me start to reinvigorate my chaos horde and anticipate soem new, better victories.

 

Seriously, a skimmer that lets us transport troops and a dread that wont kill me in the back on a bad day are fantastic news to me,how about anyone else?

 

 

I agree fully that these are exciting new additions for us lucky enough to have friends who let us use them, so let's start the discussion on how we can do it and end the chatter about why we should not. So, what do you want to discuss?

 

 

I can start to say that they look awesome, no doubt there, discussion over. :P

 

But what I'd like to know is if people have come up with any fun tricks with them? I'd say the dreadclaws should open up a few new combos by being able to deep strike and quickmove a lot of infantry that previously couldn't do it. But shouldn't it be more than that?

 

The contemptor looks really too pointswise expensive to me, but I will try him out as soon as I get him built. Can't wait to have that butcher cannon start spinning!

[jimmimellows]

"the problem is not that FW stuff is too good [not that stuff like lucius pods or castus assault rams are not] for the point it costs" - thats just not true, it used to be the case but the rules are much more balanced in recent times. If anything the points costs are too high.

 

"There's not a lot of love for Forgeworld rules." The same can be said about blood angels/space wolves/gay knights.... at least from the poor people who have to play against them. Totally overpowered and abused........and they are GW rules. Does that make it right?

 

I think the reason most people wont play against FW rules is that either A) they are jealous and therefore bitter that someone has a cool model they dont or that :D competitive gamers have killed casual gaming in any context outside of "sunday gaming at your mates house" . Whatever happened to gaming for fun, as it seems there are too many people who think tourney rules and overpowered spam lists should be the norm!

 

I love FW models and rules as they help spice things up a bit. If anyone dosent want to play against someone using FW rules then i think its thier loss (and i wouldn't want to play against someone like that anyway).

 

Now dont get me wrong, obviously if you roll up with a titan against an unexpecting opponant then thats a bit unfair but most of the average sized vehicles/characters etc are pretty fair game if you ask me. If it has structure points it SHOULD require permission or opponants prior knowledge at least!

 

I have 1 contemptor and i'll be getting a second as they are far too cool........if someone wont play then quite frankly they can take there ball, and run right home with it, i'll just find someone else to play. Its normally only powergaming cheesemiesters that have an issue with FW and other things they dont understand, as it involves more than just point/click/killing something they are not used to playing against!

 

Sorry, rant over!

 

Personally, im yet to get the book but from the weapons descriptions ive seen, it is butcher cannon all the way for the contemptor, plus khornate upgrades! Saying that, ive not converted one yet so i have a multimelta loadout. I love that we may finally stand a chance against some of the recent powerdexes. Wait, thats a lie but still, a dreadnought on MY side can only be a good thing! Im hoping twin contemptors should make my WE list at least get a few more kills and add a bit of variety to the usual 1 chaos list that everyone uses!

 

Dreadclaws sound sweet too but ive not seen the updated rules in APOC 2. Are they the same as previously or have they been altered? Can you assault from a dreadclaw in the same turn you disembark.....that would be sweet. The old rules seemed to get a lot of complaints from many loyalist players, who for some reason took a dislike to the fact that chaos had a drop pod option too! Imagine that.

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

Dreadclaws sound sweet too but ive not seen the updated rules in APOC 2

 

One of my buddies brought the book to our store and when I looked at the dreadclaw, I'm pretty sure what I saw was a copy/paste of the space marine codex pod.

[the jeske]

competitive gamers have killed casual gaming in any context outside of "sunday gaming at your mates house"

sure man . those bad competitive players dont want to use stuff like lucius dread or castus rams .

 

 

I love FW models and rules as they help spice things up a bit.

how does nid player "spice things up" with FW stuff ? If FW was no question aksed then everyone would use it because some of the stuff is clearly superior to what people can get with dex [or cant get at all like dreadclaws for chaos] . The problem is that AL in the case of FW means marines and IG .

 

 

 

Its normally only powergaming cheesemiesters that have an issue with FW and other things they dont understand, as it involves more than just point/click/killing something they are not used to playing against!

logic falacy . IF someone is a "powergaming cheesmeister" then he would do everything to win . Also the claim that people who play power lists dont understand how units work again logic falacy . As point and click goes . How more point and click can you go then with a lucius dread ? land with 2 turn 1 open two transports charge , use blood claw BA rules . wipe out two squads if opponent has units on the table . Same with castus . Or how is a twin AC dread with a power field different in use then a normal Rifle man ? If you want to give examples why people dont accept FW stuff at least make them logical .

 

 

 

As use goes . They are very point and click and suffer a lot from the anti skimer/av11-12 meta that is generaly run from most armies , so the redeployment thing doesnt happen offten . Best to think about them as higher cost drop pods . good for delivery of either 5 combi termis or 5 special chosen . Not so good for csm [not enough shots for number of squads that can come down and we dont have drop pod assault with dread claws so a fully deep strike chaos list wouldnt be viable] or zerker/pms .

[Warsmith Aznable]

I've played with the Dreadclaw. The conclusion that I've come to is that despite its ability to keep moving after coming in from reserves it has limited usefulness after unloading its original cargo. It moves slowly and has no weapons, and I can't think of a reason to deploy it anywhere but a long way away from where my other troops are, so it's not likely to do anything more useful than block LOS for the rest of the game.

 

Basically you're paying 65 points to deepstrike stuff you wouldn't normally be able to, which is a cool ability, but kind of expensive. And again, there are no options for it. Even a single heavy bolter would have been nice, or barring that a higher movement rate to be able to pick up a secondary payload to deliver. OR A :cuss ASSAULT RAMP!

 

I plan on only using the one I have already made, because at the points I'd use it at the table gets a little crowded. Chosen, Havocs, or a Dreadnought. I can't think of what else I'd bother to put in it.

[jimmimellows]

@the jeske - I've yet to see you EVER make a post that fails to try and start a flame war when someone dosent agree with you. I was making a general comment about casual gaming and yet again you have gone quote mad picking at everything someone has said. Looking through your post history indicates that you just love to argue that YOU are right over everything when about 98% of the time you talk rubbish! God knows why you think you're so clever, i think you have a serious personality problem. As is evident in various posts you have made before, and the ream of crap quotes in your signature, you seem to be a powerplayer hence the reason you didnt like my post.

 

Oh and if we are going to start a quoting war as you seem to like to do, then i think quite a lot of hobbyists will disagree with your comment "[no man cares about the models other then the owner]. If you really think that then I think you are in the wrong hobby and should switch to playing Dawn of War!

 

I never mentioned "Nid players" or the model range so why take things out of context to try and make yourself sound clever, i cant help the fact that FW dosent have any tyranid stuff, i was talking about the range in general and this topic is not about Nid's anyway you fool its about chaos!

 

Its not worth getting into a debate over my "logic falicy", as yet again you are right (in your mind), however i fail to see the flaw in my logic, i think its more to do with you trying to look big because you disagree. All i did was raise a point but as usual, you've taken it as a dig. YOU ARE A TROLL and from now on im avoiding EVERY SINGLE topic that you post in, you persistantly make my blood boil.

 

@MAX - its a shame to hear that the dreadclaw lacks an assault ramp, thats kind of killed it for me. It dosent seem overpriced in terms of points, i just think i can spend the points on something more worthwhile, which is a shame.

 

On a seperate note, i had a bit of a discussion about soul burners the other day which sound like a nice bit of kit. Im a bit annoyed I glued plasma blasters into my Contemptors arms now as ill have to get a second set. The soulburner packs a mean little punch with S5 AP5 24" template and although ive not gamed with it yet, its a cool bit of chaos specific weaponery.

[nurglez]

If you were going for the soul burner id suggest fixing a havoc on it roo, for str 5 blast fun :). Just been looking at the chaos contemptor,.have an apoc game coming up soon so was considering adding one.

 

Forge world in normal 40k,.apoc 2 book certainly stired up talk when it came out, as it has 40k rules and apoc rules for certain units, such as dreadclaws, contemptors, hell blades and others, while the big juicy stuff only has apoc rules, I'm sure my gaming group that "play for fun" would enjoy it to spice up some of our armies :)

[DuskRaider]

I actually used Dread Claws back with their older rule set, they were a load of fun. At least when loaded with Berserkers and having the ability to assault out, haha. I'm actually quite disappointed with the rules update they received, I was hoping they'd have something similar to the old ones... considering they're so expensive.

 

The Contemptor is an expensive choice as well, but I see a lot of fun to be had with it (not to mention the model is killer). A lot of weapon options, good base rules, doesn't go whacky, and best of all it can take a Chaos Mark. Butcher Cannon seems to be the best weapon, at least in my opinion. Heavy Conversion Beamer is also nice, just very situational. I've made one for my Night Lords army I'm in the process of making, and I'll be making one for my Death Guard as well.

 

Let's not forget the Hell Blade as well. Chaos Space Marines now have a fast attack skimmer... I still don't understand why the Hell Talon is Apocalypse only, considering IG can spam Vendettas (cheese). In all, some decent options for Chaos to give us more options (along with IA: 5 - 7 and the Plague Hulk).

[Warsmith Aznable]

@MAX - its a shame to hear that the dreadclaw lacks an assault ramp, thats kind of killed it for me. It dosent seem overpriced in terms of points, i just think i can spend the points on something more worthwhile, which is a shame.

 

It used to be listed as Open Topped, so you could assault out of it. It lost that rule without gaining a replacement, so that sucks. I'll only use it in ≥2000pts, maybe less if just want to drop a Dreadnought on someone's rear area.

 

I actually used Dread Claws back with their older rule set, they were a load of fun. At least when loaded with Berserkers and having the ability to assault out, haha. I'm actually quite disappointed with the rules update they received, I was hoping they'd have something similar to the old ones... considering they're so expensive.

 

The Contemptor is an expensive choice as well, but I see a lot of fun to be had with it (not to mention the model is killer). A lot of weapon options, good base rules, doesn't go whacky, and best of all it can take a Chaos Mark.

 

Signed on the underlines, yo. I really want to get me one, but I'm waiting to see if a Chaos specific body comes out. A special character Contemptor as an HQ choice would be boss.

 

Let's not forget the Hell Blade as well. Chaos Space Marines now have a fast attack skimmer... I still don't understand why the Hell Talon is Apocalypse only, considering IG can spam Vendettas (cheese)

 

I really want a Hell Blade squadron, but I can't spring for the models for a long while. Me and my friends started playing multiple detachment games, speaking of the Vendetta though, and I've found that a Lord Commissar x2 Veteran squads and x2 Vendettas is just a shade under 500 points and constitutes a complete second FOC. Add that to a 1500 point Chaos Marine list and you've got your Traitor Guard element in the form of flying tank hunters that can also contest objectives. Haven't played it yet, but I'm looking forward to giving it a go.

[DuskRaider]

I used to have a large number of Hell Blades, but sold them due to being useless in regular games. Doh! Anyhow, I know FW said they will be doing Legion specific Contemptors, but gods only know when they'll get to it. Chances are if they're committed to it, you'll see a Thousand Sons model first, due to their being the antagonist in IA: 12.

 

I'm too impatient anyhow and I've already converted a Night Lords Contemptor. Didn't want any Chaos influence on it either, as I'm not a big fan of them (or Alpha Legion) being portrayed as Chaos worshippers.

[Emperors Immortals]

Right.

 

so i ran a 1500 pt match and included a Dreadclaw and 2 Hell Talons.

 

The talons were very useful as strafing units and threats but both were taken apart by dark lance mass fire (prob. my fault there)

 

The dreadclaw was less then i envisioned, no assault ramp and no weapons being quite teh problem.It did deliver my Lord and retinue quite well though, as you reroll on teh table.

 

My contemptor was another story however.He was armed with TL HFlamers and a plasma blaster - he destroyed one of those pain engine things, a wych coven and the Archon guy before exploding and seriously damaging a tokened reaper (?) squad.

 

 

 

- SO -

 

Contemptor seems to have an amazing amount of use (also seems i can take a soulburner and a plasma blaster), the dreadclaw was useless in that role (please help get some strategy with me guys) but i will say that the hell talon could be good, given its supersonic rule i can see side and read straffing runs against AV 12-13 vehicles.

 

Thoughts?

[The Prophet]

Contemptor seems to have an amazing amount of use (also seems i can take a soulburner and a plasma blaster), the dreadclaw was useless in that role (please help get some strategy with me guys) but i will say that the hell talon could be good, given its supersonic rule i can see side and read straffing runs against AV 12-13 vehicles.

 

For strategy I think most people would agree upon rather taking one Contemptor rather than one dreadclaw. But you really have to consider their points values to get anything useful out of it.

 

The Contemptor version I will probably use first (you have to give this rare wonder some magnets) comes with a Butcher Cannon, a Mark of Tzeentch (I know many will take Nurgle instead, but same cost) a heavy flamer and a searchlight. That's 256 pts if I'm correct, which could give me almost four dreadclaws instead, or a dreadclaw and a unit of hard arse objective claiming troops. So competitively I think a dreadclaw has more use, but the contemptor is such a cool piece of robot that I have to make him first anyway.

 

But really, why not have your dreadclaw filled with a Contemptor with two heavy flamer-DCCW and MoT? Now we are talking expensive toaster!

 

How would you guys equip your Contemptor? What would you put in your Dreadclaw?

[Hellios]

Dreadclaws are best used with the renegade Vrakks lists where units inside them can assault the enemy on the turn they land.

[Slayer le Boucher]

@Max, you know that once a Dreadclaw is on the table, he moves like a skimmer right?...

 

And as for the Comptetor, its a nice machine ,that its true is, once properly equipped ith something else then Twin H bolters, is double the points price of a regular dread.

 

But the AV13, the "Force Shield" and the fact he has Fleet is nice, also the new Chaos specific weapons are cool, i personnaly use the Butcher cannon, it is really effectif against light armored vehicles, 4 S8 shots is always good.

 

For those who don't use one because they don't have a FW model:

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/8572/img1342k.th.jpg

 

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/120/img1343wj.th.jpg

 

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/7650/img1344db.th.jpg

 

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/4146/img1345m.th.jpg

 

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9994/img1346uj.th.jpg

 

http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/4544/img1347n.th.jpg

 

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/1984/img1348ni.th.jpg

 

Easy and even cooler looking then the FW(but unfortunatly this model was stolen with various others, so i can't use it for now...)

[Warsmith Aznable]

@Max, you know that once a Dreadclaw is on the table, he moves like a skimmer right?...

 

I do, but like I said, it comes to the table far enough away from anything else I might want to move that I don't see it being reliably useful. I'm going to be dropping things behind enemy lines, so in the 12" it can fly after it delivers its payload I think it will normally take too long to get to another candidate for embarkation that I couldn't count on it.

[DuskRaider]

Aren't Dreadclaws also a Fast Attack choice now, instead of just being a transport option?

[Warsmith Aznable]

Aren't Dreadclaws also a Fast Attack choice now, instead of just being a transport option?

 

A Dreadclaw is a Fast Attack option for a Chaos Space Marines army.

 

Someone also mentioned dropping a Contemptor with it. I remember a discussion where someone had said that Contemptors were too large to be carried by Storm Ravens, there may have been a rules clarification or this might have been speculation, but it brings up whether or not a Contemptor would fit inside a Dreadclaw based on the same logic.

[the jeske]

its not a question of size . a contemptor is not one of the units listed as ones that can be transported by a claw , that is why it cant ride in it .

[The Prophet]

its not a question of size . a contemptor is not one of the units listed as ones that can be transported by a claw , that is why it cant ride in it .

 

[Edit- I think the new rules have changes that actually, see further down.]

 

Since you are gaming quite a lot jeske, let's say you for some strange reason was forced to use both a contemptor and a dreadclaw in your list. How would you equip them and what would your strategy be?