How to kit your troops

[Kaldoth]

Well I've broken back into the glory of Chaos and Im having a little trouble deciding which weapons and icons would be best for standard CSM squads. I haven't played Chaos since the 3.5 dex, so breaking into this one has basically thrown all of my previous knowledge out the window :) I think the close combat would be best left to the dedicated CC specialists in the dex (zerkers, raptors, termies, etc), so Im aiming my CSM squads for shooty rather than choppy. My question is, what icons and special weapons best compliment their abilities? The Chaos Glory icon seems nice for the cheap points cost, but how well do the Nurgle and Tzeentch icons stack up? They seem pricey, but possibly worth it for the survivability.

 

Also, any general tips on creating a balanced force would be nice B) Good units, bad units, tactics, combinations, etc.

 

Cheers,

-Kal

[Kristoff]

The only reason to take any of the Marked Icons is when you're not a Troop and you want that buff or you're seriously wanting some theming going on.

 

Chaos Glory - Cheap and helps make up for the lack of ATSKNF. Only reason NOT to take this is if they are already buffed by Fabius Bile... yeah.

 

Tzeentch - Expensive and gives you less than sitting in cover will, and if that changes in the next Edition, it will probably just put you the same as in cover. If you plan on being in the open and want that Invul save, just pucker up and get some Rubrics.

 

Nurgle - Decent against small arms fire, but let's get serious, if you're getting hit with only that, you're probably in cover, or going to Assault it anyway. And Plague Marines get a better version of it without a stick,

 

(Didn't ask for, but we'll go for the rest)

 

Khorne - Good if you're going for an Assault Marine unit, but Berzerkers are better for that job thanks to being Fearless and having Furious Charge. Almost useless for a Fire Support unit except if you plan on getting charged.

 

Slaanesh - This does little for a Fire Support unit, and only has any use if you plan on getting charged. The Initiative bonus will help against most other Marines, but again, only really useful if you plan on Assaulting, so... And again, Noise Marines will be better here, they at least will have access to better guns for everyone!

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

Good units, bad units, tactics, combinations, etc.

 

Very well, sir.

 

Good-

1. CSM with IoCG, Pfist, any special weapon x2, Rhino

2. Plague Marines, any special weapon x2

3. Obliterators

4. Thousand Sons (Call me bias)

5. Demon Prince

6. Chaos Lord w/ Demon Weapon (any mark, but Nurgle is awesome)

7. Khorne 'Zerkers

 

Bad-

1. Possessed

2. Spawn

 

Tactics-

1. Land Raiders are best when taken in pairs and with demonic possession transporting Khorne 'Zerkers

2. Demon Princes are best taken in pairs

3. 5 Chosen with max special weapons can outflank in a rhino and blast a vehicle

4. 3 Terminators with 3 Combi-Meltas deepstriking

5. Raptors with x2 Melta Guns are only 120pts.

 

Combinations-

Lash of Submission from Demon Princes can be used to move the enemy units 2d6 inches:

1. Together for a vindicator/obliterator plasma cannon blast

2. Into charge range for Khorne Berzerkers

3. Out of cover and into rapid-fire range for Thousand Sons Ap3 bolters.

 

These are all very basic ideas, and most are just from my experience. Not looking to start a debate on what unit is best!

[the jeske]

csm always 10 . if you want less dudes [aka 5] take 5 plague marines or if you are realy desperate for a objective camper[which you shouldnt be] a 5 man NM unit with a blast master.

csm get 2 specials . asp champion gets a fist . rhino . unit done

 

plague marines are technicly in 2 versions . 7 man fist 2 specials in a rhino or 5 man 2 specials no champion rhino or not depands on points and job of the unit[if it is suppose to be a double plasma objectice camper then the rhino is not needed]

 

zerkers you take 8 fist champ rhino done

 

that concludes our good troop options

 

hvy support

oblits you can take 2x2 3x2 or 3x3 . if you are realy desperate for something different you could try to use 3 defilers , but you may not like what you get for your cash . other hvy support choices do not exist

 

FA

chaos doesnt have FA choices

 

elite

you can take a termicid [terminators naked 3-4 more offten 3 with 3 combi melta fire and forget for 105pts] or you can try to fit in chosen[5 dudes 5 specials rhino outflanking] . both options are that great and to take them in 1500 or lower games you have to skip on the good stuff or run a 5 man pm build . Generaly best left alone unless you play more then 1500pts

 

HQ

well we have the demon prince . If you are realy realy realy want to play a land raider rush you can put Khârn in , but DPs work just as well in those armies .

 

 

that more or less covers the chaos dex and what is in it or not.

[Kristoff]

that more or less covers the chaos dex and what is in it or not.

 

Please note the lack of bitterness and rejection in the referenced post. Jeske tends to turn to hyperbole when it comes to Codex: CSM, and excludes key phrases like, "worth taking in a competitive environment", or, "there are other options, but these work best for this role."

[minigun762]

For a shooty CSM squad, my choice would be either:

10 CSMs, 2 plasma, IoCG + Rhino

10 CSMs, plasma/autocannon, IoCG + Rhino (optional)

 

Both of these squads can provide hurt at 24" and both squads are more interested in rapid firing than assault. Of the two, I like the more moible 2x plasma unit but it is more expensive, has more killpoints and autocannons are a good counter against the light vehicle/transport heavy armies out there.

[the jeske]

"there are other options, but these work best for this role."

sure dude . show me a chaos unit in the hvy support section that does anti horde anti meq and anti tank at the same time because other slots cant do it , because A such options in other slots dont exist B they do exist but their cost makes it impossible for us to run it C we can run them but then we are playing an army with 2x5 pms and lose 2/3 of games which are based on objectives .

 

But ok I will go over stuff that was skiped

 

 

lords . cost like DPs , but can be instant deathed . have to be used with cult units because with csm they dont fit in to rhinos . bikes and joining raptors will be covered lower. no storm shield so best inv we can get is +4 which is bit random as survival goes . demon weapons stun you on a roll of 1 . both tzeench [if shoting is used] and khorn have a double chance to stun themself.

 

sorc . low A , no eternal , same inv problem , same transport problem , no hoods , psychic powers make them cost like a DP .

 

both options make it easier for opponents to focus fire on your army [DP+rhino 2 targets. Lord+unit in a rhino 1 target] making it harder to reach the enemy line

 

 

elite .

possessed . random unless a 6 is rolled not much better then zerkers in hth . the movment buffs are wasted becuase if one runs a non shoting unit it will have a transport . they cost a lot . their asp champion cant take any upgrades.

 

FA

 

raptors . high cost jump infantry that statwise isnt better then csm . small anti tank units [5 dudes with 2melta] cost more then termicid for less shots while not being better at survival or delivery . bigger units need to be babysited by a HQ which either means les freedom for a DP or the need of runing a lord or a sorc.

 

 

Spawn . slow and random movment . can tar pit [too hard to win hth or get a draw because of both low WS and random A]

 

bikes . cost even more then raptors . same problem for small anti tank unit. if used as a delivery unit for a GD the set up costs like almost 2 DP , for a lot less power . not viable as hth units[but that is a trait of all bike units] .

 

 

hvy support

 

preds . overcosted [loyalist versions are identical and cost less and they are still not using them], stunable , have to be static to use more then 1 hvy weapon . harder to get cover then oblits .

 

havocks . high cost static fire unit . possible use with Autocannons in a AC/plas csm build as support . still even for that build a lot less useful then oblits [cant deal with av 13-14] . can be run with specials but chosen are better , because for 15 more pts you get outflank and a 5th slot for a weapon .

 

 

 

troops

 

1ksons . high cost infantry have to be within rapid fire range to be realy effective [ap 3 is nice but not so nice when your str 4 and bs 4] , have to take high cost squad leaders who suffer a lot from the anti psyker meta played by people . losing those leaders makes the units worse. they die to shoting like normal marines +3 sv they have +4 inv which is nice for a unit but +4 is also the cover save in 5th[also one of the problems with their ap3 bolters is the high cover opponents get] . no viable squad anti tank , which forces them to rely on oblits even more then other sm list may do .

 

 

NM [which I use]

high cost with sonic weapons , icon gives them a hth buff while upgrades make them a shoting units . the dichotomy means that when fully upgrades the unit costs like some deathstar elite , which of course it is not . Used set ups are 5man campers 8-10 units with sonics or 8-10 man with no sonics but a fist champ and a syren [low ap flamer . which more or less NM build a gimik one per opponent armies , because if they see the trick one time it stops working] .

 

GD

with the cost of a demon prince or higher[depands on what kind of a champion is being poped for him and if the unit delivering the champ is there only to deliver or can it also work alone after that] slow , problematic if it drops turn 2 [50% chance] because it may well be out of range of any opponent units .

 

LSD

fearless meq that can charge after they deep strike . awesome ? not realy first of all no frags so any cover makes them hit last . no fists so walkers or high T units may well be a problem .+5 sv [inv actualy] hurts them a lot and forces the use of big squads which then cost like csm squads[which are +3 , with frags ultra grit etc]. small squads use as campers die too fast even if they go to the ground .

 

dreads were covered many times .

[Warsmith Aznable]

A pair of extra DCCW Defilers backed up by a squad of Obliterators is a fun combination that doesn't suck. Battle Cannon, Battle Cannon, Assault is normally how that goes.

 

Sometimes I will put out some Havocs, other times I'll field my Vindicator. The Predators I have get far less use than I originally would have liked. It's always good to back up these units with a squad of Obliterators, though, because they are so good. I have personal reasons for not wanting to field multiple squads of Obliterators, but they are the best HS choice we have rules and points wise.

 

I'm putting more and more bodies on the field these days instead of spending for robots and tanks. Bolter fire followed by more Bolter fire solves a lot of problems, and you can have the mobility to react to a changing situation. And it seems like every third thing in a new codex comes with an Invulnerable save these days, so weight of fire is increasingly important to me.

[Kristoff]

"there are other options, but these work best for this role."

sure dude . show me a chaos unit in the hvy support section that does anti horde anti meq and anti tank at the same time because other slots cant do it , because A such options in other slots dont exist B they do exist but their cost makes it impossible for us to run it C we can run them but then we are playing an army with 2x5 pms and lose 2/3 of games which are based on objectives .

 

Saying there is NOTHING else is lying, because it's not true. Are the other options as useful, cost effective, or efficient? Of course not, but they are there. I was trying to help you with your communication there. Though, if you detest the codex so much, why do you hang around the board?

 

But ok I will go over stuff that was skiped

 

Not necessary, but a nice touch. As I said, just simply stating that there are "other units, they just aren't worth taking," is not betraying yourself or your perception, and still allow you to be truthful.