Battle For The Abyss, Psychers and Space Wolves... Oh My!

[Chalkydri]

I am slowly making my way through the Horus Heresy novels and just finished reading The Battle for the Abyss (beware there will be small SPOILERS BELOW).

 

 

 

Judgements on the quality of the writing and story aside, I am finding myself confused by incongruity between the world the novel presents and the fluff presented in the Space Wolves Codex.

 

If the Space Wolves detest sorcery so much so that the Wolf Guard character spends the entire novel despising the Thousand Sons marine Mhotep, and even relates how on Fenris witches have their tendons in their arms and legs cut and are then tossed into the sea, how is it that the Space Wolves Codex allows for you to take not one but up to four, FOUR, Rune Priests? And also includes Njal, one of the most powerful psychers in the game? How is it that the sorcery fearing wolves are somehow one of the most pyschic space marine chapters around?

 

I realize actual game play versus fluff doesn't always add up, but the only other Space Marine dex that allows anything even close to that is Blood Angels with their crazy librarian dreads.

 

Now, okay, yes, I understand that the wolves codex is meant to take place "now" in the 40k timeline, allowing 10k years of changing attitude to take place since the setting of this novel, but still, the Space Wolves, at least so much as the Wolf Guard in the novel is used as their mouth piece, seem to have some very ingrained biases towards any use of psychic powers. Hell, even after being saved by Mhotep the Wolf Guard still wants kill him because... just, well... because.

 

The Black Templars have been going without librarians for roughly 10k years themselves and they don't seem to be as wishy-washy when it comes to their beliefs, at least they stick to their guns.

 

Random aside: Is anyone else bothered by the fact that the Black Templar name makes no sense, as the real Templars whose name GW appropriated were so named becase their original basecamp was on the temple mount in Jerusalem. And in the Warhammer 30k direct post heresy age, the time in which the Black Templars would be founded, religion was being squashed in place of logic and reason. So what freaking temple are the Black Templars supposed to be named after and why would they choose to name themselves after something anathema to all loyalist marines at that time, ie religion? And does adding the word black before something really make it cooler? Dumb Dumb Dumb. Cool chapter, dumbest name ever. Rant over.

 

Anyway, back on task, so granted, later the book does do the who deus ex machina, or demonica in this case, thing and the demon Wsoric takes all the blame for manipulating emotions aboard the ship, but he does say all he did was fan the anger that was already there. I also get that the writer may be attempting to foreshadow the whole Russ vs Magnus thing, but still, even if that's the case, than he's riding roughshod all over that literary technique with plenty of 2-dimensional characters. Sigh.

 

In short, what gives?

[The Colossus]

From the point of view of the space wolves, The rune priests don't use sorcery, according to Fenrisian lore/anecdote/whatever, they tap into nature on Fenris to get their powers. Thousand sons etc tap into the warp for their powers. However, the powers are all derived from the warp.

 

The wolves don't believe they use "sorcery", and thus their viewpoint is skewed.

 

As for the black Templars, post heresy, it becomes a bit more unclear about religion etc. plus, given the 40 odd thousand years since the original Templars, it's conceivable the meaning has been diluted and/or changed in universe. I mean- Word Bearers doesn't scream anti-religion at me, more the opposite tbh.

 

Just my 2 pence

[Týr]

Don't think about anything in BFTA. Just disregard it and move on with your life.

If you come to realise later, that you have taken permanent damage by that "book" there is a group for such people.

 

"We who try to forget, but just can't because the nightmare keeps comming back to haunt us because we read: "the-book-we-shall-not-name", and that made us want to poke us in the ear with a pencil"

We are working on a better name.

 

 

But on topic: You should read A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns. These books answers all your questions about the Rout's attitude towards psykers. Without giving any major spoilers it's about the Rout (proper name for the spwace woulves) regarding their own psykers as ok, because they only use powers they have in their minds and bodies. The Thousand Sons on the other hand draw directly on the immaterium for more power, which is regarded as sorcery, as you use power that you really don't have.

 

The conflict between the two legions could be (but really shouldn't) summarised into: Thousand Sons have great raw talent, where the Rout have great wisdom.

[Legatus]

The problem is not so much with BFTA but with how certain elements are handled in the "Horus Heresy" revamt in general. Originally, the Emperor had outlawed only "sorcery" (involving dark forces and rituals) in the councel on Nikaea while still allowing trained and controlled psykers (using inate talents to bend local warp streams). However, for some unknown reason that was changed when GW/BL set out to expand the Horus Heresy story line, and was now changed to the Emperor having outlawed any use of psychic abilities. This has obviusly led to questions as to why Space Marines are now able to use psychers again, and will hopefully be answered in some of the later Horus Heresy (or "Scouring") books. It is also likely the source of the Space Wolves' disdain for anyone using psychic powers.

[eyeslikethunder]

The Space Wolves dont like sorcery rather than Psychic powers.

 

Psychic powers use your own power

 

Sorcery uses the power of others. ie Getting daemons to do it for you through pacts and sacrifices. Such as when Magnus makes a deal with tzeentch to to stop the Change. These in 40k universe have tendency to go badly wrong normally ending up with you bound to a chaos power or worse. You never seems to quite get what you were expecting

 

Black templars hate both

 

 

I thought Nikea banned librarians and the space wolves dont use books :D

[hendrik]

nikea banned the librarium project indeed but several legions still used them, just not as open anymore. the reason why the librarium project restarted is unknown to me though.

[A D-B]

The Space Wolves dont like sorcery rather than Psychic powers.

 

Psychic powers use your own power

 

Sorcery uses the power of others. ie Getting daemons to do it for you through pacts and sacrifices. Such as when Magnus makes a deal with tzeentch to to stop the Change. These in 40k universe have tendency to go badly wrong normally ending up with you bound to a chaos power or worse. You never seems to quite get what you were expecting

 

That was always the assumed and/or de facto reasoning in the past, yeah. That seems to have changed with the Grey Knight codex, when they laid it out in clearer terms. Really, any manipulation of the warp through psychic power - no matter the rituals involved or approach taken - are essentially the same thing, from the same source, done in different ways. Like how in the old game Mage: the Ascension (for example) a shaman character would summon fire spirits to obey his desire; a cybertech scientist would use a high-tech flamethrower pistol; and a Hermetic astrologer is manipulating the forces inherent in the world's physics, with an arcane Word of Power. But they're all just "casting a fireball" really, and they're all drawing power in the same way, from the same place.

 

The old assumption(?) between sorcery and psychic power still lingers, and it'll be a long time in changing unless GW clarifies it time and time again. Until then, it'll be one of the many things people see as wrong, not realising there's new clarity or lore on the subject. Or, dare I say it, it'll change back around to the old way we were all comfortable and familiar with.

 

It's very, very often Space Wolf players that debate this point, too. This isn't addressed to you, Eyeslikethunder. Just a general observation. But there's one thing that a lot of Space Wolf fans in particular seem very, very reluctant to ever face. Is it really so bad that their chosen faction is wrong about something? Maybe just one little thing? Why aren't they allowed to be hypocritical or ignorant about something, when everyone else is? Why is it such a sin? Why is it so hard to bear for so many Wolf players that, gasp!, their faction might be as flawed and wrong as everyone else?

 

Christ, half the things I love in 40K are cool because of their misunderstandings, their flaws, their flawed perceptions of the world in which they live. I'll never understand why anyone defends their one chosen faction as "these guys are right, the end". Firstly, I can't see why that matters - the lore seems to be entirely about perspective and the million ways the universe is going to hell because everyone sees the truth differently. Secondly, whatever the faction thinks is right is probably not true - it just matches how that player perceives the lore. Thirdly, what does it really matter, when anyone can just say "I like this army best now." It's not like there's some difficult approval process to have a favourite army.

[Gree]

I thought Nikea banned librarians and the space wolves dont use books :tu:

 

The Nikea proclamation was said by the Emperor himself. He stated that all psychic powers could not be used. This was clarified in Collected Visions when the Emperor even stated that no psychic powers of any sort where to be used by the Astartes and not even the Primarchs could develop their psychic talents.

 

Interestingly enough in Prospero Burns we have a scene with two Rune Priests conducting psychic work on Kaspar Hawser’s mind after the decree at Nikea.

 

It’s one thing for the Wolves to ignore Guilliman’s Codex. It’s another entirely for them to ignore a statement from the lips of the Allfather himself.

[Lord Ragnarok]

I was going to shut this down because I know we had a lengthy discussion on this topic previously, but I can't seem to locate the old thread.

 

Tread lightly and keep the discussion healthy, insightful and friendly.

 

 

 

-----

I agree with Legatus' comments. Focus switched from sorcery to psychic powers. Outside of that there are many conflicting examples of SW use of and belief of psychic powers which will probably never have a definitive answer. Collectively, the wolves are either hypocrites, ignorant, misunderstood, or sanctioned by the Emperor, but unknown to all.

 

 

For me, I just want a definitive answer.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Why didn't the Thousand sons just say they got their powers from prospero? why did the Wolves assume the Thousand sons were bad when they used similar? surly if they actually believed that the rune priests powers came from Fenris, they would assume the same would be for the other legions and their own homeplanet?

[A D-B]

Why didn't the Thousand sons just say they got their powers from prospero? why did the Wolves assume the Thousand sons were bad when they used similar? surly if they actually believed that the rune priests powers came from Fenris, they would assume the same would be for the other legions and their own homeplanet?

 

Well... That ties into this:

 

Tread lightly and keep the discussion healthy, insightful and friendly.

 

I think, where stuff like this is concerned, the Space Wolves themselves (the faction, that is) are part of the problem. A lot of their lore directly contradicts the established rituals and routines of how things work and how things are done - especially in regards to gene-seed and Space Marine initiation. Some of their stuff simply doesn't make sense with how the processes are described relatively/objectively in other places. A lot of the time, even people writing in the setting have to gloss over Space Wolf lore inconsistencies when they crop up, and just say "Uh, um... screw it, it's the Space Wolves."

 

In some ways, they're not subject to the same laws of the setting as other Chapters, so discussing them becomes difficult. It also makes it difficult to see which is a lore-breaking variance that just hasn't been changed with the rest of the developing setting, and what's just the Space Wolves being hypocrites or lost to ignorance about one particular subject - just like every Chapter/faction is hypocritical or wrong about about something, somewhere.

[Týr]

It's very, very often Space Wolf players that debate this point, too. This isn't addressed to you, Eyeslikethunder. Just a general observation. But there's one thing that a lot of Space Wolf fans in particular seem very, very reluctant to ever face. Is it really so bad that their chosen faction is wrong about something? Maybe just one little thing? Why aren't they allowed to be hypocritical or ignorant about something, when everyone else is? Why is it such a sin? Why is it so hard to bear for so many Wolf players that, gasp!, their faction might be as flawed and wrong as everyone else?

 

It's funny because i'm a very big fan of the wulfy guys.

I'm probably the exception, as I think the wolves are greatly flawed. I'm a huge fan of them because I find them the most awesome guys, but I do not agree on a lot of their perception of the world. I am much more into the way The Thousand Sons think and see things, and their eagerness to learn everything.

So have always felt a bit divided between the awesomeness of the sixth legion that I truly love, and my disagreement on their flawed views on Magnus, sorcery and more.

 

Just wanted to say we are some wolves that try to work against the masses of howling baboons.

[Lord Ragnarok]

It's very, very often Space Wolf players that debate this point, too. This isn't addressed to you, Eyeslikethunder. Just a general observation. But there's one thing that a lot of Space Wolf fans in particular seem very, very reluctant to ever face. Is it really so bad that their chosen faction is wrong about something? Maybe just one little thing? Why aren't they allowed to be hypocritical or ignorant about something, when everyone else is? Why is it such a sin? Why is it so hard to bear for so many Wolf players that, gasp!, their faction might be as flawed and wrong as everyone else?

 

It's funny because i'm a very big fan of the wulfy guys.

I'm probably the exception, as I think the wolves are greatly flawed. I'm a huge fan of them because I find them the most awesome guys, but I do not agree on a lot of their perception of the world. I am much more into the way The Thousand Sons think and see things, and their eagerness to learn everything.

So have always felt a bit divided between the awesomeness of the sixth legion that I truly love, and my disagreement on their flawed views on Magnus, sorcery and more.

 

Just wanted to say we are some wolves that try to work against the masses of howling baboons.

 

 

Yeah, I think not seeking enlightenment/knowledge because it could be dangerous is a flaw. That is the state of 40k.

 

 

To ADB's comment on why it is so hard for SW's to accept, I think it has something to do with the nature of SW fluff. It pushes the envelope of heroic, even more than other loyal legion's/Chapters. Is easy to get trapped in this ultra heroism and not see flaws. Not saying right or wrong, but I think the reason lies somewhere there-in.

[The Colossus]

In my interpretation of the Thousand Sons, they were never particularly quiet about their powers, and their source- the wolves hide it as a "natural fenrisian phenomena". the Wolves tend to wrap things up in tradition, whereas the Sons look to improve on tradition, and for new ways. Breaking from tradition for the wolves is probably quite a major thing, whilst, the thousand sons are less bound by older ways.

 

It all depends on your viewpoint- essentially its a difference in this that leads to Nikea. Plus don't forget, Mortarion was a proponent of the abolishment of the librarians, it's not just russ vs Magnus.

 

I always got the impression that the whole Nikea thing was a way of taking out potentially the most powerful loyalist legion in terms of the damage it could do to Horus and Chaos, ie the Thousand Sons, and bringing it to the traitors side. Russ was manipulated, as were the other primarchs, so perhaps there's less of a flaw on the wolves part. Being unknowingly manipulated into a viewpoint is a bit different to the almost blinkered view they superficially appear to have. Also, the end result of prospero meant that the wolves, a vicious fighting force who could have tipped the balance on terra at the end of the heresy, were too far away and arrived after the death of Horus etc.

 

Maybe I'm reading too much into it. Just a few semi-coherent thoughts...

[Demus Ragnok]

I am slowly making my way through the Horus Heresy novels and just finished reading The Battle for the Abyss (beware there will be small SPOILERS BELOW).

 

 

 

Judgements on the quality of the writing and story aside, I am finding myself confused by incongruity between the world the novel presents and the fluff presented in the Space Wolves Codex.

 

If the Space Wolves detest sorcery so much so that the Wolf Guard character spends the entire novel despising the Thousand Sons marine Mhotep, and even relates how on Fenris witches have their tendons in their arms and legs cut and are then tossed into the sea, how is it that the Space Wolves Codex allows for you to take not one but up to four, FOUR, Rune Priests? And also includes Njal, one of the most powerful psychers in the game? How is it that the sorcery fearing wolves are somehow one of the most pyschic space marine chapters around?

 

I realize actual game play versus fluff doesn't always add up, but the only other Space Marine dex that allows anything even close to that is Blood Angels with their crazy librarian dreads.

 

Now, okay, yes, I understand that the wolves codex is meant to take place "now" in the 40k timeline, allowing 10k years of changing attitude to take place since the setting of this novel, but still, the Space Wolves, at least so much as the Wolf Guard in the novel is used as their mouth piece, seem to have some very ingrained biases towards any use of psychic powers. Hell, even after being saved by Mhotep the Wolf Guard still wants kill him because... just, well... because.

 

The Black Templars have been going without librarians for roughly 10k years themselves and they don't seem to be as wishy-washy when it comes to their beliefs, at least they stick to their guns.

 

Random aside: Is anyone else bothered by the fact that the Black Templar name makes no sense, as the real Templars whose name GW appropriated were so named becase their original basecamp was on the temple mount in Jerusalem. And in the Warhammer 30k direct post heresy age, the time in which the Black Templars would be founded, religion was being squashed in place of logic and reason. So what freaking temple are the Black Templars supposed to be named after and why would they choose to name themselves after something anathema to all loyalist marines at that time, ie religion? And does adding the word black before something really make it cooler? Dumb Dumb Dumb. Cool chapter, dumbest name ever. Rant over.

 

Anyway, back on task, so granted, later the book does do the who deus ex machina, or demonica in this case, thing and the demon Wsoric takes all the blame for manipulating emotions aboard the ship, but he does say all he did was fan the anger that was already there. I also get that the writer may be attempting to foreshadow the whole Russ vs Magnus thing, but still, even if that's the case, than he's riding roughshod all over that literary technique with plenty of 2-dimensional characters. Sigh.

 

In short, what gives?

 

The word templar is associated with a "knightly" order. What else are the astartes if not knights. The templar name is associated with a crusade. So why not use the title for a "knightly" order that swears to go on "crusade" for ever and ever. Don't look to the original titles origin look to the current/future cultural association.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

"Rule of cool" answers most things.

 

A-D-B, thanks. Thinking about it Space Wolves do seem to go against some of the traditional ideas of Space Marines. We're told that scouts are made in order that the geneseed can mature in their bodies before the black carapace is implanted and they can wear their power armour. Wolves, somehow they can go through the entire process in a short enough time that their "scouts" are thrown onto the battlefield in power armour, and then they determine who can become a Grey Hunter by how well they survive their first few battles.

 

In terms of time and resources expended the Space Wolves are being woefully inefficient, so much so that you wonder how the Chapter survives at all.

 

In terms of the Psyker/Rune Priest question, I'd say the Wolves are just being a bit hypocritical. Russ wasn't a philosopher, and his sons follow in his footsteps. "It's good for me but not for thee" is just how they operate sometimes.

 

That said, I still like playing them. As Lord Ragnarok says they are the uber-heroic Marines, and that's good enough for me.

[Veteran Sergeant]

The Space Wolves have Rune Priests because the concept and models for them predate the writings of the Horus Heresy storyline. There you go, question answered, mystery solved. :D

 

The Black Templars have a name that derives from religion because they were created by GW before the Horus Heresy timeline had been fully fleshed out, and the whole "Emperor hated religion" idea came about.

[voi shet magir]

But there's one thing that a lot of Space Wolf fans in particular seem very, very reluctant to ever face. Is it really so bad that their chosen faction is wrong about something? Maybe just one little thing? Why aren't they allowed to be hypocritical or ignorant about something, when everyone else is? Why is it such a sin? Why is it so hard to bear for so many Wolf players that, gasp!, their faction might be as flawed and wrong as everyone else?

 

Their mistakes are justified and apposite, in the place where love and righteousness are the same.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Any of the space wolves could be psykers, in PB they don't have a librarium, they choose from among their ranks who will perform the offices of the Rune Priest.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i have always seen the difference between thousand sons and space wolves in regards to psychic powers as this:

 

The TS thought of the Warp as a great ocean, but saw themselves as the explorers and masters of that ocean. they believe, with the proper time and training, they could complete mastery of the warp and its denizens. they could control the warp with no fear. The TS thought they could bargain with denizens of the warp as equals, and learn what has been lost. They saw the knowledge gifted to them by their explorations of the Warp and gre over-confident.

 

the SW saw the Warp as a ocean also, navigable by careful practice but a force of nature. they saw the denizens of the Warp as the monsters that inhabit Fenris's oceans, and believed no man could fully master such monsters. While the ocean on Fenris is their lifeblood, it is also untameable. It could be used, with caution, but never relied upon to be calm. The Wolves believed that the Warp was a dangerous tool, that was unsafe in less cautious hands.

 

This way, both sides had valid points and mistakes, which leaves us in the grimdarkness of 40k.

 

WLK

[Chalkydri]

Wow, thanks everyone for the responses, didn't know I'd receive such input!

 

Thanks also for some of the clarifications regarding sorcery versus psychic abilities. I always figured the use of sorcery involved ritual of some sort but hadn't come across such a definition yet in the novels. And as some have mentioned, therein lies a problem of confusion - a lack of defining the vocabulary that is used within the 40k, or in this case 30k, world. So if you're going to have a character mention he hates psychers, but his own chapter utilizes them, then some sort of explanation is required to showcase the difference in the character's eye. I'm not saying you need twenty pages of exposition, but just as The Colossus has described his take on the matter in the post above, mentioning the difference between drawing power from within you vs outside of you or some other perceived difference can quickly and easily be interjected and stop all this confusion.

 

I guess the difficult part is that when I first got into the hobby, way back in the days of 3rd edition, the Horus Heresy was fairly undefined and I liked it that way. Various bits of back story didn't always have to add up, it was the 40k universe and such inconsistencies are written into the universe and easily explained as various viewpoints or bureaucratic typos (which I actually think is pretty cool and adds to the overall feel of 40k, something that no other system I know has).

 

Now with the writing of the Horus Heresy novels all those dark parts on the map are getting filled in, and because of that, some of the things that were designed years and years ago have to be reverse engineered so they still fit. Or in some cases, actively re-imagined. And in some cases they just don't seem to mesh well.

 

As an aside to A-D-B, as a Black Library author it is always great to hear your take of things. And not to sound too much like a drooling fan-boy, but I'm about half-way through Blood Reaver and absolutely loving it. I don't mean to dismiss or demean any of the your fellow authors, but I truly wish the same amount of detail you put into your characters was done in all of the Horus Heresy novels. Kudos!

[Mykra]

i have always seen the difference between thousand sons and space wolves in regards to psychic powers as this:

 

Good points. I always thought that if you boiled it down it was that the Wolves were afraid of it, and the Sons weren't afraid of it enough.

 

I think what's very cool about the whole situation is that other than the Wolves being students of the body and the Sons being students of the mind, they are really parallel chapters. Both suffer genetic instability, both use unorthodox means of accessing the warp, both stand apart from the other legions, etc...

 

I like the fact that the Wolves easily could have been the ones attacked and shoved out of the Imperium if the dice would have landed on different numbers.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

nikea banned the librarium project indeed but several legions still used them, just not as open anymore. the reason why the librarium project restarted is unknown to me though.

 

Plus the fact that the Wolves never used Librarians. Sure it's hypocritical, but their Rune Priests pre-date the librarian project.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

i have always seen the difference between thousand sons and space wolves in regards to psychic powers as this:

 

Good points. I always thought that if you boiled it down it was that the Wolves were afraid of it, and the Sons weren't afraid of it enough.

 

I think what's very cool about the whole situation is that other than the Wolves being students of the body and the Sons being students of the mind, they are really parallel chapters. Both suffer genetic instability, both use unorthodox means of accessing the warp, both stand apart from the other legions, etc...

 

I like the fact that the Wolves easily could have been the ones attacked and shoved out of the Imperium if the dice would have landed on different numbers.

That is quite an interesting idea for an alternate heresy, perhaps both of them get cast out/attacked by someone (possibly Mortarion and Curze) and whilst not destroyed or lose their homeworlds (if the custodes and sisters of silence were split between them, may just be enough for them to fend them off) and then either then or afterwards you have more legions and primarchs, possibly the more humanitarian/honourable ones (Vulkun, Johnson and Fulgrim), forming a third, non chaotic, non Imperium faction.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Plus the fact that the Wolves never used Librarians. Sure it's hypocritical, but their Rune Priests pre-date the librarian project.

 

The problem is though, that doesn't matter. The Emperor mentions the Librarium project, sure, but he explicitly states that no Astartes shall ever again use psychic abilities, or Primarchs either. It doesn't matter that the Wolves call their psykers Rune Priests instead of Librarians, they're still affected by the ban. The White Scars call their psykers Stormcallers, or something along those lines, and yet their group was disbanded, even though they weren't actually called Librarians. The Wolves broke the Edict, plain and simple.

[Conn Eremon]

The way I see it, or interpreted it, is that the Space Wolves don't see their psykers as being psykers. They don't see their magic as magic.

 

The Vlka Fenryka's view on Librarians is . . . Pretty much how my mother used to be, rest her soul. The people she hated most were the people like her, for the things that made them similar, but she would never recognize that. Any attempts to bring it up would result in a "I don't do that!" argument that no one can ever win against her.

 

And that's the HH Space Wolves. Especially the Rune Priest we see in Thousand Sons.