Battle For The Abyss, Psychers and Space Wolves... Oh My!

[eyeslikethunder]

the strange things if rune priests are banned why are custodes not doing any thing about. a

[Gree]

Because they don't tell them, or use their powers in the Custodes sight?

[DarKnight]

Did Wyrdmake before he was ambushed by Ahriman or any of the Rout attempt to utilize psychic abilities during the attack on Prospero? I don't think they do but the Custode that accompanied the Raven Guard into the gene-vault was willing to kill their librarian to unlock the chamber in a matter that was of life and death to the Imperium. The Rout using those powers within the presence of Valdor himself would have the tacit approval of the Emperor himself, no?

[aurelian]

The word templar is associated with a "knightly" order. What else are the astartes if not knights. The templar name is associated with a crusade. So why not use the title for a "knightly" order that swears to go on "crusade" for ever and ever. Don't look to the original titles origin look to the current/future cultural association.

 

I agree with the above 100%

There has been a similar question somewhere about the name of the Blood Angels legion. Why give the name 'angel' in a secular universe?

I think it can be explained a million ways. First of all, i think this is what really gives the flavour of 40k - and also 30k. This is the main difference between an army of imperial storm troopers in Star Wars, and a horde of screaming crusaders in motorised plate-armour. You just can't take these cultural references away from the Astartes, these are just as essential in their concept - and the concept of the universe itself - as their unnatural height or the armour they wear.

Warhammer is full of these, mostly european, cultural evocations, like angels, crusaders, vampires, vikings, without these it would be just like Starcraft or whatever.

If you don't like the idea of space templars, to each his own, i suppose. I'm not very fond of space mongols, but i think crusaders are cool. Try to focus on other things.

 

Sorry for going off-topic. Templars are just more interesting than rune priests :D

[Gree]

Did Wyrdmake before he was ambushed by Ahriman or any of the Rout attempt to utilize psychic abilities during the attack on Prospero? I don't think they do but the Custode that accompanied the Raven Guard into the gene-vault was willing to kill their librarian to unlock the chamber in a matter that was of life and death to the Imperium. The Rout using those powers within the presence of Valdor himself would have the tacit approval of the Emperor himself, no?

 

They used their psychic abilites right after Nikea doing psychic work on Hawser on Fenris. No custodes around. It was not the fate of the Imperium to use psychic abilites to defeat the Thousand Sons. Of course the entire reason they went after the Thousand Sons was because they broke the Nikea decree. The problem is the Space Wolves did it themselves.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Circular debate warning....

[eyeslikethunder]

Im sure Russ uses a psychic wolf howl which can during the heard across the battlefield during the assault on prospero does not seem sutble at all or hiding it

 

I accept there is contridiction

 

but in the end the wolves are not ones who broke the throne + caused a major disaster on earth

[Viridia]

Im sure Russ uses a psychic wolf howl which can during the heard across the battlefield during the assault on prospero does not seem sutble at all or hiding it

 

I accept there is contridiction

 

but in the end the wolves are not ones who broke the throne + caused a major disaster on earth

 

That sounds ever so slightly "But HE did it first!" If the Wolves are hypocrites when it comes to psychic abilities, so be it. At this point in the 41st Millennium it's not as if anyone else isn't.

[eyeslikethunder]

Im sure Russ uses a psychic wolf howl which can during the heard across the battlefield during the assault on prospero does not seem sutble at all or hiding it

 

I accept there is contridiction

 

but in the end the wolves are not ones who broke the throne + caused a major disaster on earth

 

That sounds ever so slightly "But HE did it first!" If the Wolves are hypocrites when it comes to psychic abilities, so be it. At this point in the 41st Millennium it's not as if anyone else isn't.

 

more just wondering if they were given permission as the custodes are on the same battlefield as Russ. Seems a bit sucidical otherwise.

 

It will be interesting how that develops because librarians very useful figting chaos slippery slope anyone

 

and because Librarians's are in the Codex astartes and that is written at this time period

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Im sure Russ uses a psychic wolf howl which can during the heard across the battlefield during the assault on prospero does not seem sutble at all or hiding it

 

I accept there is contridiction

 

but in the end the wolves are not ones who broke the throne + caused a major disaster on earth

 

That sounds ever so slightly "But HE did it first!" If the Wolves are hypocrites when it comes to psychic abilities, so be it. At this point in the 41st Millennium it's not as if anyone else isn't.

 

more just wondering if they were given permission as the custodes are on the same battlefield as Russ. Seems a bit sucidical otherwise.

 

It will be interesting how that develops because librarians very useful figting chaos slippery slope anyone

 

and because Librarians's are in the Codex astartes and that is written at this time period

 

When all is said and done, you need a psyker to fight a psyker or a daemon. Pariahs and blanks are all well and good but there just isn't enough of them.

 

There is a very important reason why every Grey Knight is a psyker.

[DIDM]

we wolves don't use sorcery

 

 

we read runes and use the blessing of Russ and The Emperor of Mankind

[Brother Nihm]

The ignorance of the Wolves are as touching as it is legendary.

[Lord_Caerolion]

we wolves don't use sorcery

 

 

we read runes and use the blessing of Russ and The Emperor of Mankind

 

...Which comes from the Warp, and is therefore psychic ability...

[dswanick]

we wolves don't use sorcery

 

 

we read runes and use the blessing of Russ and The Emperor of Mankind

 

...Which comes from the Warp, and is therefore psychic ability...

Nope, it comes from Fenris and is a blessing of the Emperor... :o

 

Seriously, AD-B made some good points earlier in the thread which deserve expanding on. He made a very important connection when he mentioned White Wolf's Mage: The Ascenscion. In that game system some of the most powerful supranormal beings are "Mages". There are various flavors of Mages, but the one basic common factor is that they are "Will Workers". They shape the world around them by an Act of Will. The greater the effect, the greater the Act of Will required. Another common factor is that all self-aware, intelligent beings are Will Workers (to some extent or other), and every Will has the same power to affect and resist change. As a result - every act becomes a battle of Wills. If a Mage is alone in his study and uses his Will to materialize a pencil from nothing - it's likely to work because his Will makes it so and there are no observers to (unconsciously) disbelieve in a pencil appearing out of thin air and no ambient resistance to the existance of a pencil in a study. If a Mage were to do the same thing in a crowded auditorium there is a slightly higher chance of his Magic backfiring because while the audience's collective Will resists the idea of Magic it is not a focused disbelief because most people are conditioned to accept sleight-of-hand and assume it was such a trick. If, however, the Mage were materializing enough water to fill the auditorium the amount of resistance would be greater than most could overcome as there is no way to distract each person from the fact that they suddenly would find themselves in hundreds of gallons of water without a rational explanation.

 

Warhammer 40,000 psychic powers are in some ways very similar. Look at the Orks - yes Wierd Boys use the Warp to express their powers, but the average boy expresses some power simply through his belief that this combination of nuts and bolts can blast his enemy to a charred cinder despite it's heaviest armor and his enemies are conditioned to accept that it works this way for Orks. And yet neither really needs worry much about Daemonic influence or possession because they simply don't believe that it matters or can happen. Eldar believe that Slannesh is always waiting in the wings to suck their soul dry, but if they are careful and subtle they can do powerful psychic effects and sneak away from Daemonic assault. In the same vein most Imperial Psychers know that they access the Warp for their powers and that a single misstep can leave them open to possession and death. Fenrisian Psychers are a small minority who actually believe that what they are doing draws power from a source other than the Warp and that they are less susceptable to these problems, as a result and because most other Imperial (those who know anything about Psychers and the Warp) are conditioned to believe the same way - the collective Act of Will makes it so.

 

tl;dr - Psychic/Warp powers are all about what the Psycher (and others around him)believes. Rune Priests believe they are accessing the natural power of Fenris - and thus it is so.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The end effect isn't any different though. The Orks work they way they do because every single one of them is minorly psychic, and able to influence probability. Belief has nothing to do with how the Eldar and their Farseers work. Slaanesh is waiting to get them, and the only reason they can do the things they do is because they wear Ghosthelms that mask their presence, and manipulate the Warp essentially through proxies (their runes) rather than directly. They don't "believe" and suddenly Slaanesh leaves them alone.

Similarly, nothing has ever stated that the Rune Priests are safer than any other psyker. They can believe they're using the Spirit of Fenris all they want, it doesn't change the fact that they're manipulating Warp-energy. As you yourself stated in the analogy, they all use "Will". Someone believing that they're not using Will to do what they do, but some other force, doesn't change that fact.

 

Rune Priests are psykers. They manipulate the Warp in order to manifest their powers, although they couch it in tribal terms and symbology. Hell, every single race and faction views the Warp differently, the Wolves aren't alone there. The Thousand Sons viewed it as an ocean. To the Space Wolves, the Warp is the primal and natural fury of their homeworld. That belief, however, doesn't change that it's still the Warp, and that there are daemons in there hungering for them.

 

Simple belief isn't enough to manipulate the Warp to that extent. People keep bringing up the Orks, but everyone keeps getting it wrong. The Orks can do it, as I've said, because they're able to manipulate probability unconciously. They can't get a bent piece of metal to fire bullets, but they can have a gun work when, by all rights, it should break when the trigger is pulled. No other race has this sort of effect on the Warp. There are Imperial Psykers out there who believe that they are a beacon of the Emperors Will, and that psychic powers are the Emperor channeling his Will through His agent. They're still just as vulnerable to daemonic attention as other psykers though. Belief isn't enough.

[dswanick]

The end effect isn't any different though. The Orks work they way they do because every single one of them is minorly psychic, and able to influence probability. Belief has nothing to do with how the Eldar and their Farseers work. Slaanesh is waiting to get them, and the only reason they can do the things they do is because they wear Ghosthelms that mask their presence, and manipulate the Warp essentially through proxies (their runes) rather than directly. They don't "believe" and suddenly Slaanesh leaves them alone.

Similarly, nothing has ever stated that the Rune Priests are safer than any other psyker. They can believe they're using the Spirit of Fenris all they want, it doesn't change the fact that they're manipulating Warp-energy. As you yourself stated in the analogy, they all use "Will". Someone believing that they're not using Will to do what they do, but some other force, doesn't change that fact.

 

Rune Priests are psykers. They manipulate the Warp in order to manifest their powers, although they couch it in tribal terms and symbology. Hell, every single race and faction views the Warp differently, the Wolves aren't alone there. The Thousand Sons viewed it as an ocean. To the Space Wolves, the Warp is the primal and natural fury of their homeworld. That belief, however, doesn't change that it's still the Warp, and that there are daemons in there hungering for them.

 

Simple belief isn't enough to manipulate the Warp to that extent. People keep bringing up the Orks, but everyone keeps getting it wrong. The Orks can do it, as I've said, because they're able to manipulate probability unconciously. They can't get a bent piece of metal to fire bullets, but they can have a gun work when, by all rights, it should break when the trigger is pulled. No other race has this sort of effect on the Warp. There are Imperial Psykers out there who believe that they are a beacon of the Emperors Will, and that psychic powers are the Emperor channeling his Will through His agent. They're still just as vulnerable to daemonic attention as other psykers though. Belief isn't enough.

But belief is all we have... :)

You do realize how silly it sounds to argue factually about a fictional power in a fictional story, right?

Space Wolves players belive that Rune Priests are acceptable while Sorcerers are not. Ultramarines players believe that all Psychers are the same, and scratch their heads about why Sorcerers are forbidden, Librarians are acceptable, and Rune Priests are not Sorcerers or Librarians. And all of it doesn't matter one bit, in reality, because it is a fictional story supporting a game. But within the context of the game, some factions believe there is no difference while others believe that there are differences and that belief matters.

 

If a Space Wolves player believes that Rune Priests and Sorcerers are just codex specific names for Psychers and then claims that the Council of Nikea bans Sorcerers but not Rune Priests then yes, he is probably being hypocritical. But so are Ultramarines players with Librarians.

If a Space Wolves player believes that Rune Priests are different from Sorcerers and Librarians, then there is no hypocrisy. The Council banned Sorcerers and Sorcery.

If you believe that the two are the same and disagree with the Space Wolves player, then duke it out on the gaming table. Congratulations, the fluff has served its purpose of giving a colorful story to your chess match.

[Valkyrion]

I would imagine that Malcador, Garro and the others will reinstate the Librarium project during the heresy on the simple premise that the traitors will be using psykers and so the legions will need some sort of psychic defence/counter attack.

Garros first task was to recruit a lapsed librarian.

 

So there is the subtle retcon that allows Guilliman to slip Librarians into the codex.

 

As for the wolves vs sons at prospero - we still don't know who gave the order to destroy them. Was it Horus, who was still visibly loyal, who says 'the emperor has ordered you to destroy the sons by any means necessary'?

Were the custodes too close to the sisters to realise the wolves were using psychic powers?

Were the custodes going to grass the wolves up but then the heresy began proper?

Were all the custodes killed?

 

Edit to say that Corax wasn't above his marines using psychic powers either, even with a custodes spear in his face, so if Russ believes himself above the edict then the rest of his legion will too.

[Mykra]

The ignorance of the Wolves are as touching as it is legendary.

 

 

Ok, that made me laugh.

 

My thought while reading, no clue how right or wrong it was, was that the Custodes simply didn't care about the Space Wolves psykers at that moment in time. They were all locked in on the Thousand Sons (a group they already didn't like) who were very flamboyant about their powers - compared to the Wolves who were very protective and secretive of their own psykers - and when the Sons began the flesh-change they dropped all thoughts of everything else and just went all-out vs the newly made warpspawns.

[hendrik]

this debate really reminds me of the council of nikea in a thousand sons...

[dswanick]

this debate really reminds me of the council of nikea in a thousand sons...

Yeah, :P and I think that's a good point. All GW fluff is rumors, lies, and propaganda reported by biased observers about a byzantine, paranoid, and schizophrenic universe.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

and like nikea, some people are holding their personal grudges over their reason.

 

WLK

[The Colossus]

Thing is, the wolves are cautious with their powers. They don't rely on them to win a battle they are simply an additional tool. The sons wage war in a way that has psychic powers as a central support. This idea is brought up many times thoughout a Thousand Sons.

 

Both Othere Wyrdmake and Ahriman demonstrate the same capabilities in terms of the warp, indeed their sojourn into the warp rather proves this. Wyrdmake I think understands more than he let's on to Ahriman, and is looking for cast iron evidence from the horses mouth as to the extent of the sons knowledge and use of the Warp. The sons are perhaps seen as reckless with their powers, and could easily bring about that which the emperor doesn't want becoming known, i.e. general knowledge of the warp.

 

Trouble is, neither side is entirely right to my eyes.

 

Another two pence ;)

[Zeratil]

Oooh, fun discussion! I think from a viewpoint outside of the characters/factions the wolves are wrong about where their powers come from. Nothing wrong with that, everyone in 40k is wrong about something - even the Emperor during the HH. The latest stuff on psychic powers is in the GK codex - they're all the same at the end of the day. That doesn't mean the intent or the use doesn't matter; take the old cliche that guns don't kill people. In the same why HOW the psyker uses his power matters a lot, even more so because the warp reflects emotion, symbolism and sympathy. If you sacrifice an innocent soul (a dispicable act) to summon a daemon (a dispicable act) you are more like to succeed. If you're angry when you use a psychic power, then your efforts to hurt or destory something will be magnified.

 

The Wolves use the same stuff as everyone else, but in a careful limited way. Wyrdmake is said to be just as powerful as Ahriman during the HH, but his 'powerset' is much more limited by his beliefs and how he channels his power. The thousand sons set their own limits (Their fellowships), greater exposure to the knowledge and power of the warp tends to erode these self-inflicted barriers (see the sons at the end of ATS, where they find that they can use warpcraft they never could before.) In all likelyhood Russ knew the truth, as stated in the book's he's much cleverer than most of his brothers think, something the custodes are aware of, but see's this as the proper way to use the warp in a controlled manner, or maybe even he doesn't realise. Magnus, the greatest psyker amongst the primarchs only realises right at the end how ignorant he was about the true power of the warp. The emperor himself severely underestimated what the Gods of Chaos were capable of. In addition to this Magnus was just so much more open about such things than Russ and the wolves, he extolled the virtues of psychic powers, started the Librarian project etc etc. Russ and his wolves kept their lore and abilities much more to themselves - and importantly - out of the reach of the remembremancers.

 

As for the Wolves using powers on Prospero, maybe the custodes were ordered not to interfere. Remember the Emperor didn't want the use of psykers banned at Nikea, he was under pressure from terran politicians and some of the primarchs and imperial functionaries to enact these measures at a time when he couldn't afford dissent. It's very likely that things were manipulated behind the scenes to get psykers banned from all the legions to facilitate Horus' invasion, given that psykers are the best defence against daemons and the loyalists disbanded them just in time to be attacked by the traitors and their daemonic allies. Secondly, the Emperor didn't order Magnus to be punished because he used psychic powers, he ordered him punished because of the way he flouted the Emperor's authority. Too many people knew what he'd done within the astropaths and navigators to cover up the enormous damage he caused. If Magnus had just stayed on Prospero and continued as before (like they were doing) no one was going to go keep an eye on him (ala Lorgar). For the Emperor it was 'out of sight, out of mind'. The Emperor's (or Malcador's) instructions to the Custodes might well have been that the wolves were allowed to use any means at their disposal.

 

Lastly consider the Wolves role as the Emperor's mailed fist. It's heavily implied that they had something to do with the destruction of the 2nd/11th legions, and that they were the Legion most fanatically loyal to the Emperor. Russ would to absolutley anything for the emperor with just a word, no complaints, no matter how abhorent it might be to him. The same couldn't be said for any of the other Primarchs I think, no matter how close they were to their father. Maybe for this reason the Emperor trusted them to use powers forbidden to the other legions, so long as no one knew.

[jeffersonian000]

That book was a bad 40k story recast as an even worse 30k story. Its best to just ignore it and move on.

 

SJ

[Gree]

As for the Wolves using powers on Prospero, maybe the custodes were ordered not to interfere. Remember the Emperor didn't want the use of psykers banned at Nikea, he was under pressure from terran politicians and some of the primarchs and imperial functionaries to enact these measures at a time when he couldn't afford dissent. It's very likely that things were manipulated behind the scenes to get psykers banned from all the legions to facilitate Horus' invasion, given that psykers are the best defence against daemons and the loyalists disbanded them just in time to be attacked by the traitors and their daemonic allies. Secondly, the Emperor didn't order Magnus to be punished because he used psychic powers, he ordered him punished because of the way he flouted the Emperor's authority. Too many people knew what he'd done within the astropaths and navigators to cover up the enormous damage he caused. If Magnus had just stayed on Prospero and continued as before (like they were doing) no one was going to go keep an eye on him (ala Lorgar). For the Emperor it was 'out of sight, out of mind'. The Emperor's (or Malcador's) instructions to the Custodes might well have been that the wolves were allowed to use any means at their disposal.

 

Perhaps I should offer context. In Collected Visions the Emperor cites possible corruption as reason why Astartes must not wield psychic powers and how he thinks nobody can handle them. He is quite clear about how all Astartes must not use psychic powers and how even the Primarchs must not use psychic powers. The Emperor is not being forced to a descision against his will.

 

He is not being manipulated by anybody really.