Grey Knights vs Blood Angels (a summary)

[FeralJim]

Hey guys,

 

I'm a Blood Angels player. Been running them now for about a year. Love the colour red, love the look of the models. I'm also really competitive (not WAAC with my friends but I like to do tourneys).

 

The thing is, BA don't make for a great Assault army. Most of their top-tier stuff is hidden in variations of Razorspam (Flamers, Asscan or Las/Plas) or a horde of 50+ ASM with FNP, melta, fists and Devastators bringing up the rear. The former plays pretty good on the tabletop. You get cheap Fast vehicles with good weapon load-outs. Maybe some Typhoons, MM Bikes, AC/LC Preds or Devs mixed in. The latter has a lot of problems against real Assault armies. People who have things like DCA, TH/SS, Wyches, Stealers etc. Many of those don't have grenades or are slow, but when your shooting is only 20% of your army then you have to close with the enemy or you lose. Fighting those at the same initiative also makes you lose.

 

So they have some bad matchups. Luckily Tyranids aren't overly played in the competitive scene but Dark Eldar, Dual Raider lists (especially now with all the S7 spam) and GK *are*.

 

The thing that really cripples BA is that their dedicated Assault Units are garbage. SangGuard are terrible, and so are Death Company. It's a real shame. They also have no cheap cannon-fodder units to tie up or block enemy power houses from reaching combat. This is also a big deal. All they have are ASM and if you want to run raiders or ravens, TH/SS. I shouldn't have to pay a 250 point tax to use my only good Assault unit, Tyranids don't do it, Orks don't do it, Dark Eldar don't do it, neither do GK. This is bad for list variation.

 

So I've started taking a look at the Grey Knights codex. Seeing just what kind of lists they can field for fun, and what they can field that's good. *(I know, I know, I'm a bit late to the party)*

 

At first I was going through Army Builder, and they seemed pretty good. Dreadknights are better than Furioso's against most of the stuff you will fight, and they are cheaper to get into combat. Grand Masters and Librarians both seem like solid HQs. With a bit of fun, strong stuff mixed around. Grenades are amazing. So is hammerhand.

 

Strike squads aren't mind-blowing, but I did some math on a 205 Strike Squad with a Passback, two Psycannons fighting a 180 ASM Squad with Assback, two melta. At 24" shooting GK win, under 12" GK win, in melee GK win. Wounding an MC, GK win. Penetrating a Land Raider under 6" GK win. Shooting down a horde? well, you guessed it.

 

This is a unit that, in the context of the GK codex, it's not really that great. I don't see many people running around with lots of Strike Squads the way BA do ASM. It's still amazing in comparison though.

 

Paladins? 15 points for WS5 and +1 wound when your regular GKT are already getting the best of both worlds between Terminators/TH/SS. Yeah I'll take a side of those thanks. Add the Librarian for a 3++ in shooting and I6 Force Weapons in melee. Good luck stopping them.

 

Riflemen? 5 points for S8?! feth me dead.

 

Then I came across Purifiers, and my jaw dropped. 8 points more than an ASM gets you Halberds, Storm Bolters, Cleansing Flame and half-price Psycannons (which negates their expensive cost in the first place). So they beat nearly everything in combat. Anything they can't beat they can easily shoot off the table. Their only weakness is that they are a 26 point model with T4 and 3+, but SangGuard are 40 points 2+, and have no anti-horde, no-anti MC and no shooting. This is what a good elite unit looks like. Dialed up to 11. You can even make a Deathstar of them when you add in Grenades, Shrouding, Might of Titan and Sanctuary.

 

So by now I'm thinking. Damn. GK gak is pretty expensive, but it's also pretty amazing. They are what all marines claim to be. *true* generalists. Good in combat. Good at shooting. Your enemy is always going to be able to capitalize on your low model count, but you should have the flexibility and firepower to work around it.

 

Then I found that little, tiny entry hidden in Army Builder, the one that unlocks 15 point Stormshields, 15 points for WS5, I6 S4 3 power weapon attacks, 12 points for a scoring troops choice unit. 10 point Multi-Meltas and 20 point Plasma Cannons. I could not fething believe it. Every weakness I had discovered in the GK just went out the window. 24 points to fill your troops choices? Start stacking Purifiers, Rifledreads and Paladins. Even in small games. Don't like Paladins? 5 Death Cult Assassins with 7 Acolytes set's you back 105 points and kills 9 marines on the charge.

 

Now for anyone reading that, I think it should be pretty clear in how I've written this that I am by no means impressed with the GK codex. It *seems* at face-value to break the game and stamp on it.

 

As a Blood Angels player, what do we have to compete with all this? I often read about folks putting BA up near the top of the totem pole. Next to IG, DE, Wolves and GK. I just don't see it. All of those books have a couple really incredible units that are very well-costed. Long Fangs, Hunters, TWC >>> Manticores/Hydras/Vendettas/Vets >>> Venom Spam, Wyches, HQs, Trueborn >>> Everything.

 

I guess what I'm saying is, I seem to have lost my love for the Angels somewhere along the way of discovering the Grey Knights. I'd love for someone to come in here and tell me I'm wrong, shoot me a couple amazing units that BA have or can do that no one else can (AV13 walls I guess, 12 Land Raiders, 9 Dreadnoughts etc.) How do they fight off a really good, cheesy GK list?

[The Yncarne]

If you're a competitive player and think the Grey Knights have a better codex, why not play them?

 

After 20+ years playing this game, I'm in it for the long haul.

[Nutzin23]

I have a friend that just started playing 40K right when Grey Knights came out. Myself and another player went through the codex with him the day it came out... and we were both furious with all the stuff they get in comparison to BA and Codex:Marines. That being said, after playing many games against him (and feeling outgunned most of the time) the fact that I can put more cheap troops on the board in Razorbacks, plus get cheap squads of Devastators really helped me out. I know now that I can beat them, no matter if I feel I can't.

[SevenExxes]

Tactics.

 

Grey Knights?

 

Challenge ACCEPTED!

[Amadeus Baal]

Hey Feral! I'm a returning player to the game and happen to have both armies. My experience fighting GK with BA isn't huge, about half a dozen games so far but so far all good. Gks are tough opponents but from their background they should be really. One on one their troops are better than your average BA, so I don't fight them one on one with my average BA. It's only really the halberds that bother me so I try to thin them out before I charge. You ask about types of BA units, so here's a couple that work for me.

 

So in addition to what Nutzin said- Honour Guard with plasma guns, deep striking if you wish, make a big mess of them. You mention SG, add FC, maybe a Chaplain or libby for re-rolls and there shouldn't be many, if any standing after a charge. They fall to Sternguard Vets just as easy as any other marine in power armour. DC can be a bit of a points sink, but their dreads on the charge can make a mess with talons. At 24" and below, their shooting is deadly so just keep that in mind. BA can deep strike quite alot of units, from SR to Dreads in pods that can out range them and start pulling their units all over the field. A vindy in cover or out of range, can zoom out and fire that big nasty gun of his. The last few are a little too random for me but could work.

 

Yup Paladins are scary, they should be for their points. When I play them it usually ends up with a single tough squad left, a little bit like the cowboys in a circle of covered wagons as the Indians circling them keeping out of reach, until they are ready to strike. Remember that 1 squad can only shoot at 1 other squad per turn, their range is relatively short. Use that. Your basic Pally costs more points than a single mm attack bike and from 24" who would you put your money on? I know its not as simple as that but think like that and build up. BA HQs are tasty in a fight, especially Mephy, just make sure you charge and nullify their libby's powers.

 

I hope this helps. This has worked for me so far. I love my GKs, but their movements are quite predictable, BA have speed and FC on their side. Like all battles really, it's about timing, getting the right tools for the job in the right place at the right time, and to me BA do this better than GKs.

[spec.ops]

DOA + Support = Competitive Army

 

Nids: Please don't ever mention Nids in any way shape or form as being competitive unless they are sporting nothing but a ranged army - barf.

SW: idk, but I find them boring.

GK: They give us hell if they bring a Lib, but as long as we have RAS w/ FNP and ranged support i.e. Attack Bikes or Devs we should be fine.

 

The thing is, if you are chasing the most competitive army you will hate this game, because each army goes in and out of favor depending on the newest codex update and rule set - look out for 6th. And kiss your wallet good by when you could be spending your money on girls. LOL My best advice is find a STYLE of play that you like and find out which army does it best. I love mobility w/ range and/ or close combat; thus, I'm a BA and Tau player. GK's are new to me too. They do it both. And a Drago lists really plays like the old Nidzilla lists so I'm drawn to them myself. But, I no longer play nids even though I really like modesl and fell of them. However, I don't like losing ALL the time. LOL

 

Good luck man

[FeralJim]

If you're a competitive player and think the Grey Knights have a better codex, why not play them?

 

Cool story bro, tell me more.

 

the fact that I can put more cheap troops on the board in Razorbacks, plus get cheap squads of Devastators really helped me out. I know now that I can beat them, no matter if I feel I can't.

 

Hey Nutzin, BA Devastators being properly costed is great. I love using them in DoA army. GK Riflemen being undercosted isn't so great. I'd much rather have their Heavy Support than ours. They can also field 62 point scoring Razorbacks with +1 strength and Fortitude. For 120 points BA can get a scoring Razorback with fast. Again, I'd prefer what they have, *even* if it didn't cost half the points. That there is pretty hard to swallow. They can also fill that metal bawks with 0-6 Melta if they really want.

 

Yup Paladins are scary, they should be for their points. When I play them it usually ends up with a single tough squad left, a little bit like the cowboys in a circle of covered wagons as the Indians circling them keeping out of reach, until they are ready to strike. Remember that 1 squad can only shoot at 1 other squad per turn, their range is relatively short. Use that. Your basic Pally costs more points than a single mm attack bike and from 24" who would you put your money on? I know its not as simple as that but think like that and build up. BA HQs are tasty in a fight, especially Mephy, just make sure you charge and nullify their libby's powers.

 

I hope this helps. This has worked for me so far. I love my GKs, but their movements are quite predictable, BA have speed and FC on their side. Like all battles really, it's about timing, getting the right tools for the job in the right place at the right time, and to me BA do this better than GKs.

 

You make some solid points here Amadeus, thanks for contributing. Personally I would prefer a Squad of Paladins to MM Attack Bikes but it's a tough call. Paladins get a 2+ save against missiles IDing them, but they are slower. I believe the math favours a Psycannon penning a Land Raider at anything under 2D6 range.

 

I think GK being predictable may indeed be their biggest weakness. Their strategy is pretty much to be better than you and march ahead, Terminator style. At a casual level this probably does win them a lot of games. Especially if all you use are BRB missions. It does leave them open to reprisal in some ways though. Ways BA can potentially exploit with their speed.

 

DOA + Support = Competitive Army

 

The thing is, if you are chasing the most competitive army you will hate this game, because each army goes in and out of favor depending on the newest codex update and rule set - look out for 6th. And kiss your wallet good by when you could be spending your money on girls. LOL My best advice is find a STYLE of play that you like and find out which army does it best. I love mobility w/ range and/ or close combat; thus, I'm a BA and Tau player. GK's are new to me too. They do it both. And a Drago lists really plays like the old Nidzilla lists so I'm drawn to them myself. But, I no longer play nids even though I really like modesl and fell of them. However, I don't like losing ALL the time. LOL

 

Good luck man

 

Hey spec.ops. Thanks for the reply dude. I totally feel what your saying. I've been on my BA for about a year now and was initially drawn to them because of their fluff/models. I've always been into Angels and Vampires, and it seemed like a dream come true to combine them. Sanguinary Guard look SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO GOOD. So do Death Company. An unstoppable murderous Dreadnought? :) yes, sign me up. A monstrous creatue in a body *smaller* than a tactical marine? yes please.

 

But over the course of the last year I've realized I don't really enjoy painting, I don't mind assembling and I *really* love playing. I also don't like it when I lose really bad (but who does?)

 

So I started reading 3plusplus (Kirby!), Jawaballs (ASM are bad apparently, jokes) and gobbling up as many BA tactics articles as I could. I got a good handle on how to make make strong, flexibile lists and what I needed to look out for when playing them.

 

It was a couple months after I felt I'd mastered Blood Angels that I started to realize all my lists looked really similar. Razorspam or DoA, that's all I ever did. Boring.

 

My problem with the Blood Angels codex is pretty simple. They have a decent amount of good, well costed units (Devs, AutoLas Preds, Riflemen, MM Bikes, Typhoons, ASM, Scouts, HG, Furiosos, Mephiston, Librarians) but most of these double or tripple up with other good units in the book. So the actual variety in terms of playstyle is really very low. If you try fielding any of the other fun, cool units, well... you get smashed. Sanguinary Guard are just so terrible for 40+ points. They really are. Don't get me started on Death Company or most of our SC's.

 

Grey Knights don't work quite like that. They get a couple amazing, undercosted units (Paladins, Purifiers, DCA, Servitors, Acolytes, Grenade Inquisitors, Riflemen, Psybolt Razorbacks) and then pretty much everything else on the codex is on-par with BA level costing and value. What this means is in a non-tournament enviroment, you can build some pretty wacky and out there armies, and not fall over. All you have to do is bring 30% or so of your really good units, and then you can do basically whatever you want and have a good time. This variety makes the codex so much fun. It's amazing.

[Morticon]

Feral,

You read any of my batreps?

I know its not as big a pool of players as the States, but BA have the number 2 rank in the country here. And we're plenty competitive.

 

 

A few points,

 

Firstly, dont take anything, anyone on the internet has to say as gospel - even this post.

There are too many variables in 40k to ever know in concrete terms what is "the most effective" in the broadest sense.

Ive posted this a few times, but local area meta is such a huge influence of the game that what works in one climate, will not work in another.

 

In my eyes, 40k list design (where competitive play starts) is like a giant rock/scissors/paper game in that you have to make as many of the "top tier" lists in your area the scissors to your rock. Every list will then subsequently have their paper- but thats the nature of the game.

 

In this regard, GK, I believe are better than BA, because they can make more lists the scissors to their rock.

 

Having said that, I do not believe that they are necessarily better full stop, or that we cannot compete with them.

I think we can compete with them quite comfortably, but we need the right tools.

 

 

Firstly, a few points!

 

1. You realise Paladins cost a bare minimum of 275 points yeh? The amount of things we can get to deal with pallies for 275 points - 6 MM attack bikers for instance - 25 points more, only. If you rock ravens, that puts out 6xS8+, AP2+ shots too. Demolishers? Sanguine sword?

 

2. Init 6 halberds are a pain. However, there are a few things coming into play here.

A. Theyre pricey. GK are pricey to start with, and upgrading them becomes pricier.

B. Most GKs have a base of one attack. This means that if we charge a squad of 10 of them, assuming one has a hammer, and 2have cannons, you're looking at a whopping 7 attacks on you. Thats 1.75 wounds without Hammerhand -which you should not be letting through thanks to having a psyker! (And if you're not taking a hood to a competitive environment, i'm of the opinion you're doing something wrong!)

 

Generally speaking though, you as the faster BA player, should not be letting the GK get the charge on you.

You should be getting the charge on him.

 

 

3. Death Company

 

Not entirely sure why you think these guys are bad. I think theyre incredible.

Kitted correctly, they will chomp through the majority of units you need them to.

 

This then brings me to a mistaken or misrepresented/misguided view of assault units. Pitting them head to head against the enemy's best assault units.

This is surefire suicide. You should not be playing this way.

There are a few golden rules in 40k that I subscribe to.

One of the most important ones is: "Shoot the fighty stuff, fight the shooty stuff"

 

Point for point, you're probably not going to beat a squad of paladins in close combat. Its their schtick. You need to thin them down, and then charge, if you're going to charge at all.

 

You should be smashing them into the lines of other units. Also, DC are incredibly cheap, for only 35 points you can get a PW on them too - meaning 4 S5, Init5, WS5 attacks on the charge. How on earth is something to be taken lightly?

 

4. Sang Guard

 

The same goes for sang guard.

Too many people play them as an anvil unit on account of their 2+ save. Big mistake vs. GK.

You need to have them as the hammer. They need to be at S5 and they need to be at Init5. With up to 4 attacks on the charge with a banner (and you want a banner) thats 20 attacks, with 5 rerolls. You're looking at at least 8 MEq wounds on a charge. For a 2+ save, JPs and PWs, not entirely sure why they're so terrible.

 

Other units:

 

Then, certain things like Ravens carrying Furioso dreads with blood claws give even GKs the fits.

Hammernators - just as good as any other hammernator - we get access to FNP though too.

 

 

I always struggle with GK, but ive always pulled through in the end.

 

 

To your last point though:

 

Grey Knights don't work quite like that. They get a couple amazing, undercosted units (Paladins, Purifiers, DCA, Servitors, Acolytes, Grenade Inquisitors, Riflemen, Psybolt Razorbacks) and then pretty much everything else on the codex is on-par with BA level costing and value. What this means is in a non-tournament enviroment, you can build some pretty wacky and out there armies, and not fall over. All you have to do is bring 30% or so of your really good units, and then you can do basically whatever you want and have a good time. This variety makes the codex so much fun. It's amazing.

 

I cannot argue with that. I pretty much acknowledge that from the start. Thats why its a very good dex. Some things have been a bit unfairly undercosted, but theyve definitely got variety in their favour.

 

However, take a look at my batreps and lists, and you may find some things that surprise you.

[Mezkh]

I'm also not understanding the problem with Death Company. WS5, 2 attacks, Relentless, Fearless, FNP, FC, for 20 points. Good deal.

[khurdur]

DC-they are difficult to field, and expensive. They have to charge, so....put them in a LR or Raven? very expensive. Give them lemartes? again, must take an expensive SR. On foot or with jp on foot, they can spend the game chasing a landspeeder. JP are overpriced at 15 points each to deepstrike sthem They are an ok unit themselves, its just difficult ot deliver them.

 

And with regard to sang guard. I use them quite a bit myself, they are my favourite unit, with the chapter banner and definately a sanguinary priest. However, they are a bit of a glass cannon...whatever they hit, with 20 S5 attacks, short of paladins/purifiers with halberds, a large amount of assault termies or a big monstrous creature will die. But, if they re shot by just a few melta shots or plasma, or a few power weapons are present in the unit we hit, the will die horribly. Eg...a csm daemon prince-on the charge, the SG ought to kill the beast, but his return blows will butcher the unit. And, if the enmy has long range firepower, they have a big cross-eye on them, because the enmy knows if they charge it won't be pretty.

 

I actually have been playing around with the idea of playing honour guard with 4-5 power weapons as sang guard, as the already have a FC bubble, saving us a 75p priest.

[Dropsik]

Now that's an interesting topic.

 

Apart from pure khorne deamons, genocult and orks horde list I think BA are very very good at assault. We have one of THE BEST cc units in whole WH40K system, and one of the best heavy support for them. I don't know from where did you'r bad experience with BA cc come, but believe me, it's not true.

 

Death Company is top 3 assault unit in the game. My personal top 3 is:

1. 8 bloodcrushers of khorne

2. GK Terminators (not paladins, plain GK Termys)

3. Death Company

 

DC-they are difficult to field, and expensive. They have to charge, so....put them in a LR or Raven? very expensive. Give them lemartes? again, must take an expensive SR. On foot or with jp on foot, they can spend the game chasing a landspeeder. JP are overpriced at 15 points each to deepstrike sthem They are an ok unit themselves, its just difficult ot deliver them.

 

that's only partially true. first, SR or LR are not a point balast you have to pay for DC to work, they're fearsome units in their own. I pay 330 points for 8 DC with 3 PW and 1 PF with attached chaplain. On charge I can smash literally everything apart from Crushers and maybe Paladins (but I have managed to wipe full paladins with only DC charging and some clever tactics). Now, is such force not worth 330 points?

 

And with regard to sang guard. I use them quite a bit myself, they are my favourite unit, with the chapter banner and definately a sanguinary priest. However, they are a bit of a glass cannon...whatever they hit, with 20 S5 attacks, short of paladins/purifiers with halberds, a large amount of assault termies or a big monstrous creature will die. But, if they re shot by just a few melta shots or plasma, or a few power weapons are present in the unit we hit, the will die horribly. Eg...a csm daemon prince-on the charge, the SG ought to kill the beast, but his return blows will butcher the unit. And, if the enmy has long range firepower, they have a big cross-eye on them, because the enmy knows if they charge it won't be pretty.

SG are ultimate marine killer. I4 means you strike equally fast as a regular marine, however you'r 2+ save means you propably survive any non - power weapons attacks, and glaives means there won't be any model left after you strike, so no Power Fists. But the're expensive, and you can only field them in 5 - man units.

 

This then brings me to a mistaken or misrepresented/misguided view of assault units. Pitting them head to head against the enemy's best assault units.

This is surefire suicide. You should not be playing this way.

There are a few golden rules in 40k that I subscribe to.

One of the most important ones is: "Shoot the fighty stuff, fight the shooty stuff"

agreed, but, even so, let's face some simple math:

typical unit of "fearsome" purifiers consists of 5 halberds, 1 hammer and 4 psycannons.

charged by DC they kill about 2.5 DC without hammerhand, and about 3.5 marine with hammerhand. and then they die. so, you just wiped out 10 purifiers losing 3.5 DC... and thats just when you hit only with those 3 PW you have. then you have also chaplain, fist, and at least 1 chainsword guy:D

1. You realise Paladins cost a bare minimum of 275 points yeh? The amount of things we can get to deal with pallies for 275 points - 6 MM attack bikers for instance - 25 points more, only. If you rock ravens, that puts out 6xS8+, AP2+ shots too. Demolishers? Sanguine sword?

agreed. also, in competitve enviroment you propably won't face paladinspam. Draigowing has so much weak spots it's shocking how popular this army is. Propably because low amount of money you have to pay for it. I don't really know. When I face Draigowing on a tournament, playing my GK's or BA's I just grin savagely and start to show my opponent why it's a bad list. Coteaz spam with regular terminators is like 10 times more difficult then draigowing.

 

My problem with the Blood Angels codex is pretty simple. They have a decent amount of good, well costed units (Devs, AutoLas Preds, Riflemen, MM Bikes, Typhoons, ASM, Scouts, HG, Furiosos, Mephiston, Librarians) but most of these double or tripple up with other good units in the book. So the actual variety in terms of playstyle is really very low. If you try fielding any of the other fun, cool units, well... you get smashed. Sanguinary Guard are just so terrible for 40+ points. They really are. Don't get me started on Death Company or most of our SC's.

again, I don't know where you get such bad experience. And I find it amusing you actually count a high amount of diversity in unit's as a flaw. Really. You sound like having multiple options to deal with one problem is a bad thing. You don't want to field DC? You have terminators (propably best in the whole game! FC, FNP terminators...). You don't wan't terminators? You have vanguards or sanguinary guards. Even more, you also have 3 types of CC dreadnaughts! I find it best thing in whole codex! What could you want more? Guess what? BA also have assault squads in troops! Assault Squad with Priest attached can easily despatch purifier squad, and seriously mess with terminators!

Grey Knights don't work quite like that. They get a couple amazing, undercosted units (Paladins, Purifiers, DCA, Servitors, Acolytes, Grenade Inquisitors, Riflemen, Psybolt Razorbacks) and then pretty much everything else on the codex is on-par with BA level costing and value. What this means is in a non-tournament enviroment, you can build some pretty wacky and out there armies, and not fall over. All you have to do is bring 30% or so of your really good units, and then you can do basically whatever you want and have a good time. This variety makes the codex so much fun. It's amazing.

what you mentioned here is in fact quite balanced and fair priced. however, there are two things that make it very seriously overpowered:

1. Fortitude

2. The Shrouding

 

with that 2 things GK list, which is properly build (coteaz spam with 4 - 5 dreadys, assassins and purifiers for example) is indeed a scary prospect. But, even so, BA's can easily fight them on equall terms.

 

You want a competitive list? Participate in tournaments, watch other players battles, and talk with other fellow BA players.

 

Cheers!

[The Yncarne]

There's plenty of ways to win with BA, but if you don't have much time with them, and think another army is better, why not play them? I haven't played most of my other, larger armies in this edition, so I picked an army I knew would get updated every edition and moved on.

 

I've been in this game since 1989. What GW giveth, GW taketh away.

[Morticon]

Lets not let this devolve.

 

Red Worm, i caught the comment you quoted from the OP, but the "take it or leave it" response isn't particularly conducive to productive threads, so lets all try be constructive in our criticism/ideas.

[Brother Nathan]

ive had and watched a few more gammes with the grey knights recently and yes model on model theirs are better. point for point theirs are better value. fortunately the players ive played seem to think every grey knight squad is a hammer and spread them out and leave them fairly unsupported. which allows one of our greatest strengths as blood angels to come into its own. and thought were ok at cc, our real strength is speed.

 

you should always dictate whos in the combat. and they should end up on your terms. you ned to have them out numbered and to have enough alebitive wounds to keep you alive whilst the rest of your squad does its killing. also dont forget your veichles and bikes etc. use them to soften up the units a bit before you charge.

 

Paladins have been a right pain in my side recently. in our small store theres 3 drego players. irritating. partiallly because of this ive been trying the sanguinor recently. and he really irritates them. the 3++ and eternal warrior just absorbs force weapons like you wouldnt believe. and extra attacks on your other models in the combat really helps out too. libarians occasionally blocking one of their powers peeves them off too, even more so when you get your own powers off too... sanguine sword fro str 10 can do a lot of damage to palidins, but i personally wouldnt risk a normal libarian getting into cc with them...

[grandmaster lisander]

DOA + Support = Competitive Army

 

Nids: Please don't ever mention Nids in any way shape or form as being competitive unless they are sporting nothing but a ranged army - barf.

SW: idk, but I find them boring.

GK: They give us hell if they bring a Lib, but as long as we have RAS w/ FNP and ranged support i.e. Attack Bikes or Devs we should be fine.

 

The thing is, if you are chasing the most competitive army you will hate this game, because each army goes in and out of favor depending on the newest codex update and rule set - look out for 6th. And kiss your wallet good by when you could be spending your money on girls. LOL My best advice is find a STYLE of play that you like and find out which army does it best. I love mobility w/ range and/ or close combat; thus, I'm a BA and Tau player. GK's are new to me too. They do it both. And a Drago lists really plays like the old Nidzilla lists so I'm drawn to them myself. But, I no longer play nids even though I really like modesl and fell of them. However, I don't like losing ALL the time. LOL

 

Good luck man

 

I agree with SPEC.OPS, I have played BA for years and I’ve won and lost against many a foe. In my opinion the best way to go is find the playing style that fits you. be aware that while putting together lists, tactics and war gear really helps it really comes down to the dice role, if lady lucks on your side then thumbs up to you, if not well thats the way things go.

 

happy hunting!

[FeralJim]

Thank you everyone for all the kind replies. I'm glad to see the BA community is still around and fighting strong.

 

I'm not a huge fan of Death Company because between 4th and 5th they lost rending, and gained rage. For the same points per model. 25 points for a hammer in the unit is also pretty crazy, when GK pay only 0-5.

 

@ Dropsik. You can't be serious rating DC as the #3 best combat unit in the game man...

 

At least half of the other codexes can field much better units point for point. Ones that will either A) do better against MEQ ^_^ do better against GEQ or C) do better against both! (Purifiers) all without the heavy cost of rage.

 

Someone said Sanguinary Guard are more survivable than Death Cult Assassins? This isn't really accurate. Your faster, and you get fairly decent close-range shooting. But in terms of absorbing firepower and close combat prowess? 3 DCA for 1 SG will win every time.

 

I think people have the right idea. If the GK player is foolish and spreads out his forces, you can use your speed to redeploy entirely on one flank and then fight his units piece meal. I want to be clear with this strategy though. It revolves on your opponent making mistakes, if he keeps his army together than your in for a rough ride. Bah.

 

@ Morticon. The only GK unit that has 1 attack that should be seeing the battlefield are Interceptors, which are still a rarely taken unit and they have more mobilty than even BA do! Strike Squads are very average and when you can make Paladins, Purifiers or Acolytes as troops there is pretty much no reason to take them =P It'd be like fielding a bunch of Tacticals as BA.

[Crynn]

Hey mate,

 

Little introduction. I have specifically been a Blood Angel and Grey Knight player for the last 13 years and I write for 3plusplus which I can see you read. I actually wrote an article on using Meph against GKs as I found him very useful against them, you can search my name 'Crynn' and the thread will come up. I just wanted to correct or at least put in my own thoughts on a couple of the things that have been written here as well as give some comparisons I have found between the two armies.

 

Firstly I'm a very competititve player and while I play these two armies because I love everything about them however within my own personal restrictions of generally only using these two codecies I try to make the bist lists I can and play my best when at tournaments. I have a pretty good track record at tournaments that I've been to so i feel I have some experiences and thoughts that you may find useful, I could be wrong but hey that's what these forums are here for.

 

So here we go.

 

First thing first the hear breaking truth...

 

As a blood angels player since 3rd ed I can tell you one thing. Top teir Blood Angel Armies are not 'Assault Armies' 3rd and 4th addition they were however in 5th as you correctly pointed out our premier assault units are rather average however DC are very good if you are a player willing to use a landraider however using a land raider correctly revolves around counter charging not driving full pelt into melta range. Ba armies are neither really shooting armies they they can do this very well and lastly, Blood Angels are not a unit for unit army. Now what I mean by that is we are not Space Wolves where we get things like grey hunters that are just better than marines for the cost or get things like vendettas that just do a lot by themselves for the cost, we are an army of synergies. This makes Blood angels difficult to play when we are not talking full razorspam lists.

So what are Blood Angel forces? In 5th ed we are an adaptive force. we shoot what we cant assault and we assault what we can't out shoot. Now this is basic principle of many armies however without speed it isn't that viable for other forces. For example, Guard, we can't out shoot them however we have the speed to be getting most of our army lined up for turn 2 assaults. Many other marine armies that find themselves out gunned cannot do this and instead have to whether additional turns of being peppered by gunlines before they hit close combat. Now onto an assault army such as Orks. whilst Ba's can go toe to toe with orks in close combat the same army that rushed forward in razorbacks and with jump packs to get second turn charges on guard can use it's speed and firepower to out shoot orks and unlike a static gunline can avoid close combat due to their speed and compact size for many turns untill the enemy force is weakened severly enough to be finished by counter assault. In this way speed gives us the abilty to play both games well but none brilliantly, ie your battle plan will change with every opponent.

 

On top of this we are an army of Synergies , such as Eldar. Most BA armies will include some kind of fast moving psycher (either with a jump pack or in a fast transport with a psychic hood allowing you to tackle many armies with their own psychers such as Grey Knights, eldar or even guard and their psycher battle squads as well as providing your own buffs where applicable. 2nd most BA armies will include 1 to 2 Sang priests giving you an edge in assault but mor importantly feel no pain. One 50 point model kept alive long enough will win you games in itself. Blood angel speed when used with mech should be used to put vehicles with smoke infront or to the sides of other vehicles giving them cover sometimes even 3+ cover as well as allowing BA armies to better utilize cover that other armies and moving to new positions eliminating enemy cover. Synergise your army so that it can stay together (at least any non static components) and so that all relevant models can benefit from FnP or a librarians shield power.

 

So dont make a list hoping to out combat specific CC combat lists such as Paladin or purifier GKs, Nids or Orks nor make lists designed to outshoot Guard or Long fanc grey hunter spam wolves. Instead try to find a list that is capable at both and has the speed to adapt and counter and enemies weakness. with AV 13 vehicles, shielding and Fnp you will find BA's are capable of lasting long enough to charge stright in when required or hang back long enough to reduce enemy threats to the point where we can deliver a devistating counter charge.

 

Grey Knights are a different kettle of fish. Whilst they save some supremely good Close combat units in Deathcults purifiers and Paladins none of these units are fast, hoever they can be in most cases adaptable. This means these units can push for cc but will generally adopt a mid field shooting roll and use their cc ability for counter charge. Paladins less so however paladins walking up against a imperial guard gun line don't fair so well, also a landraider throwing these units into combat isn't a great idea against cunning opponents as they can be easily dealt with. GK list generally will try to out shoot you, the only reason you worry about them out combating you is because you have built and amy for CC. In saying that Gre Knights can be a good counter to blood angels however at the same time FnP renders much of their shooting ineffective to us. They do not ahve low AP weapons on mass, even henchmen can't do it on mass and are very weak to boot. GKs use weight of numbers to bring down units and sang priests couter that hard. Their lack of range and expensive models should also mean you can have the advantage at range and you should bea ble to whether them to a level where you can take them in combat, most GK armies are not entirely equipped with halberds and i they are their model count will be ever lowever in which case you can empoy other tactics like tank shock to force critical units to move or even run. Remember your assault marine are actually better than strike or terminators in cc if they don not hae halberds if you have FC, shoot down the halberd weilding units or at least cripple them then go in.

 

So I hope that helps a little. If you like I could provide examples of some Blood Angel Unit si find exceptionally good, just let me know. The fact is that BA's just aren't a true assault army in 5th addition which does suck.

 

Also Strikes are better than you give them credit for, much better. Mathamatically speaking GK terminators are the weak troop link in that book.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[Mezkh]

Yeah I'd say point for point DC are around 3rd best CC unit in the game.

 

Rage is really a nothing drawback, can't ever say I've had to go after something I didn't want to because of Rage movement. Between Jump Packs and ubiquitous transport options it's very easy to point them towards where you want to go.

 

Perhaps you aren't playing the Rage rule correctly? There is a thread floating around where Morticon explains it.

[Amadeus Baal]

Hey Feral! It looks like you have started a really cool thread here. Its seems we all kinda agree on the main points. Just a few things I would like to add-

 

I agree with what your saying about the DC- as much as I love them for what they are, in order to tackle a decent GK squad you have to add too many other bits and pieces and they become a too much of a points sink. Which leaves you with an expensive unit that doesn't count as scoring, nor does it get a discount on troop transports that a RAS gets. Once they are out of their transports they are quite easy to nullify. You can easily pull them away from an objective they could potentially contest and then just move one of your units on to take their place, this is especially true in the later stages of a game, or just tie them up against units they will never win against. Though if your plan is just to annihilate your enemy they can be cool.

 

I agree with what you say about 3 DCA vs 1 SG in cc but not so much about absorbing firepower. Against small arms fire such as squads of bolters etc I would prefer my SG's saves and t4. If they lose lot of models and fail a break test, they are gone, which isn't the case with the SG. Against things like plasma, yea they do have the edge, but if I was fighting Gks, for want of better targets, I would consider shooting a DCA with a plasma a wasted shot.

 

I must admit I do like strikes, yea they are the purifiers poorer cousins, but for their points they're pretty good I think, especially compared to other marines. I think Warp Quake can be really useful to a GK army as a whole and of course they can do all the other things we know and love about Gks.

[Morollan]

Thank you everyone for all the kind replies. I'm glad to see the BA community is still around and fighting strong.

 

I'm not a huge fan of Death Company because between 4th and 5th they lost rending, and gained rage. For the same points per model. 25 points for a hammer in the unit is also pretty crazy, when GK pay only 0-5.

 

@ Dropsik. You can't be serious rating DC as the #3 best combat unit in the game man...

 

At least half of the other codexes can field much better units point for point. Ones that will either A) do better against MEQ :) do better against GEQ or C) do better against both! (Purifiers) all without the heavy cost of rage.

 

You seem a little obsessed with comparing units from different codexes point for point. If you do that with GK and BA it will drive you nuts if for no other reason than the amazingly low cost of nemesis weapons on their models. I honestly don't know how they came up with the points values but, and here's the thing, they seem to be pretty near the mark. If not, GK would be dominating the tournament scene but they are not.

 

Moving onto the DC, I simply can't agree with your opinion on them, although you're perfectly entitled to your own views. The only time my DC have failed was when I was assaulted by a 400+ point unit of tyranid warriors with lash whips. In every other battle, the DC have utterly annihilated anything they have come into contact with. The mobilty of BA transports and/or Jump Packs makes the Rage rule only a slight annoyance. The most powerful close combat ability in the game is to have a huge number of attacks and DC have that. Combined with Furious Charge and the ability to reroll hits and wounds on the charge they are pretty much unstoppable and I will put them up against almost anything in the game.

[Drachnon]

1. You realise Paladins cost a bare minimum of 275 points eh?

Actually Paladins squads are 1-10 models rather then the normal 5-10.

 

Anyways in my oppinion GK is the better codex, mostly because it gives more options for lists. Most my BA lists are hybrids while my GK lists allow for mech, terminator lists, crazy jump lists with interceptors, haven't tried henchmen though but I'll probably get to that at some point.

If I were to fight my regular GK list with my regular BA list I'm actually not sure who would win. My BA are definitely more mobile and are probably equal in long range shooting, my GK would win a shoot out at 12"-24" inch range but for close combat I think as long as they get charge off my BA are better for their points cost.

[Morticon]

So what are Blood Angel forces? In 5th ed we are an adaptive force. we shoot what we cant assault and we assault what we can't out shoot.

 

Quoted for truth.

Its how I play my BA and what ive been saying for a while now!! :unsure:

 

1. You realise Paladins cost a bare minimum of 275 points eh?

Actually Paladins squads are 1-10 models rather then the normal 5-10.

 

Fair point! Forgot about that!

 

Having said that, I would assume people wouldnt play 3 or 4 of them when 5 will net you a mobile Psy-can!

 

 

As for the DC and Rage ->

 

DC and why Rage ain't all that

[breng77]

While I won't argue that GKs are not a very powerful book, I think the OP needs to re-read some of the rules concerning them. (either that or his posts are just confusing.).

 

1.) 205 point strike squad with 2 psycannons is not possible, you can only get 1 psycannon per 5 guys.

2.) Purifiers are nasty, but once you kit them out to fight all comers they are not super in CC. Usually you would look at 4 psycannons,(or 2 and 2 incinerators), 5 Halberds and a hammer (to be an all around unit most people choose either shooty or assaulty). Doing this makes the squad 300 points + a Rhino so 340. Not all that cheap. And good in CC but not great (WS 4 means they still miss half the time, S4-5 means they probably do 3 Wounds at I6, then get a bunch of non-PW swings, if you have a dedicated assault unit they will tear up the purifiers.)

3.)Dreadknights are worse against most things the Furiousos. Many units cannot reliably hurt AV13 in CC, everything in the game can hurt T6. Blood Talons means against units without invul saves the Furiouso gets far more attacks. Throw on top of that if you want the Dreadknight to be fast it costs over 200 points. (Sure a Furiouso usually needs a storm raven, but that can also bring said squad of TH/SS termies, doubling up 2 for 1, and adds shooting).

4.) GK termies and Paladins are elite shooty termies (and are good in CC.) but they lack the durability of TH/SS termies against AP1-2 due to having a poor invul save. Now you can say they can take shrouding to get the same save but that costs you and HQ slot and a minimum of 155 points. VS TH/SS termies that get it for 5 points per model in BA.

 

Then I found that little, tiny entry hidden in Army Builder, the one that unlocks 15 point Stormshields, 15 points for WS5, I6 S4 3 power weapon attacks, 12 points for a scoring troops choice unit. 10 point Multi-Meltas and 20 point Plasma Cannons. I could not fething believe it. Every weakness I had discovered in the GK just went out the window. 24 points to fill your troops choices? Start stacking Purifiers, Rifledreads and Paladins. Even in small games. Don't like Paladins? 5 Death Cult Assassins with 7 Acolytes set's you back 105 points and kills 9 marines on the charge.

 

Henchmen are good, but some things to remember

 

15 point storm shields while good, at T3 are less survivable against non armor ignoring attacks than a standard marine (far less than one with FNP). DCA are great, if your army provides enough threats to make them not target priority 1. If they get blown out of their transport they die pretty quickly. Also remember that they do not have grenades so go at I1 if they assault into terrain. Servitors look great until you consider mind lock and realize that you can only have 2 reliable units of them in your army and only if you use both HQ slots for inquisitors (so no Libby psychic powers.). Henchmen also all have low LD, so if you kill a few of them they might run.

 

Again not saying that they are bad, but they (like everything else) have weaknesses.

[eyeslikethunder]

As for the DC and Rage ->

 

DC and why Rage ain't all that

 

 

Just a note I have seen rage ruled in a stricker manner in few tournaments recently such as ETC so ask your TO first.

[JamesI]

FeralJim, one thing to keep in mind when looking at the price of a weapon (say your thudner hammer example above) is what is being traded for it. Of course someone trading in a chainsword for a thunder hammer pays more than someone trading a Nemesis Force Sword for it.