Grey Knights vs Blood Angels (a summary)

[Dropsik]

@ Dropsik. You can't be serious rating DC as the #3 best combat unit in the game man...

 

At least half of the other codexes can field much better units point for point. Ones that will either A) do better against MEQ do better against GEQ or C) do better against both! (Purifiers) all without the heavy cost of rage.

Nope. As I said, there are propably 2 units above them. 8 Bloodcrushers, as they are unmatched in damage they can dish out, and GK Terminators because in one particular build (10 terminators with librarian and inquisitor, 2 psycannons, 1 hammer, banner, halberds) they can dish enough I6 attacks to decimate anything that charge them, and still cost under 500. Death Company with attached chaplain/reclusiarch can easily smash aside 95% of units it charge.

You say losing rending is bad? Yeah, but look what the unit gained - WS5 means you hit on 3+ most of the targets, Power Weapons in fact provide DC with MORE non armour save wounds then rending did (about 8 rending wounds compared to about 9 - 10 with only 3 Power Weapons bought). You also gain access to the Thunder Hammer/Power Fist. And adding chaplain means, you now reroll both "to hit" and "to wound" rolls. Additionally, meaning you have different models in unit helps very much with wound allocation.

On charge, you can decimate almost everything.

20 genestealers? No problem

30 orks? No problem

10 purifiers? No problem

9 Grey Hunters with Rune priest? No problem

5 Hammernators? No problem

And so on.

Only real drawback, and it shouldn't be so easily dismissed, is their Rage rule. But, put them in a vehicle, and you can manage to get them where you wan't them. and if they don't survive retaliation after hitting and vapourising their target, well, they did their job and killing 3+/FNP marines surely demanded some serious firepower, which in turn wasn't used on rest of your army.

 

And ask any competitive GK player: what win's you games, purifiers, or TL Autocannon Fortituded Shrouded Dreadnaughts?

Someone said Sanguinary Guard are more survivable than Death Cult Assassins? This isn't really accurate. Your faster, and you get fairly decent close-range shooting. But in terms of absorbing firepower and close combat prowess? 3 DCA for 1 SG will win every time.

they have just one flaw - they don't have grenades. sit in cover and have a good laugh when your opponent will try to assault you there (of course don't do it when he uses Redeemer or Crusader pattern LR).

 

I think people have the right idea. If the GK player is foolish and spreads out his forces, you can use your speed to redeploy entirely on one flank and then fight his units piece meal. I want to be clear with this strategy though. It revolves on your opponent making mistakes, if he keeps his army together than your in for a rough ride. Bah.

he CAN'T play it different. If he plays in a compact mode, Paladins or Terminators won't get anywhere and won't assault anything. they move 6" and maybe run D6". BA can move and shoot 12". And psycannons have 24" range. and if he plays compact, surround him and watch him struggle to provide cover for his dreadnaughts. Again, if he play compact, he's paladins will have troubles from catching cover for Shrouding, and if he sits all game in a wood or a ruins - great, I just gonna go and win mission ok?

Paladins are a really weak unit. They cost ungodly amount of points, with limited threat range, and still have some issues with units in other codexes. They are something like ultimate noob unit - expensive and looking fearsome, and propably unstoppable for beginners. But let me tell you, how it usually ends in competitve enviroment - they run of the board after failing they tank shock test, with rhinos of Doom behind their back, or they end assaulted on one flank by 3 units, and end having combat with about 4 - 5 models participating in combat - you can guess the outcome, or they end being shoot at for 3 turns, withered to 4- 5 models and then just assaulted and destroyed. If the dice gods don't hate you, and you know what you are doing, Draigowing should be fairly easy matchup for BA's player. Coteaz spam is much much worse to play against.

@ Morticon. The only GK unit that has 1 attack that should be seeing the battlefield are Interceptors, which are still a rarely taken unit and they have more mobilty than even BA do! Strike Squads are very average and when you can make Paladins, Purifiers or Acolytes as troops there is pretty much no reason to take them =P It'd be like fielding a bunch of Tacticals as BA.

that's not entirely right. Strike Squads are very good unit. Equip them with Psyrazor and Psycannon and you have very good scoring unit that can also dish some nice damage in shooting phase. Additionally it has Warpquake - so no DS near GK lines. And Interceptor pay for their mobility being a very weak specialist unit. they can't shoot well and they can't fight well. They are a fancy assault squad with 2 attacks and virtually no way to improve their performance by adding IC.

 

 

However, I agree, that GK codex is now the most powerfull codex released. It's not the best, it's just powerfull. BA codex is much better in terms of choices and lists you can build with it. That's my opinion of course:DHope to have dispelled some of your fears:D

 

Cheers!

[Bartali]

The thing that really cripples BA is that their dedicated Assault Units are garbage. SangGuard are terrible, and so are Death Company. It's a real shame. They also have no cheap cannon-fodder units to tie up or block enemy power houses from reaching combat. This is also a big deal. All they have are ASM and if you want to run raiders or ravens, TH/SS. I shouldn't have to pay a 250 point tax to use my only good Assault unit, Tyranids don't do it, Orks don't do it, Dark Eldar don't do it, neither do GK. This is bad for list variation.

 

Very much agree with this. Ward dropped the ball creating a dedicated BA assault unit, which limits builds in that direction.

 

So what are Blood Angel forces? In 5th ed we are an adaptive force. we shoot what we cant assault and we assault what we can't out shoot. Now this is basic principle of many armies however without speed it isn't that viable for other forces

 

Also very much agree with this. BA are like Eldar, but with good units.

 

Re GK - They have limited shooting to deal with FNP Marines and AV13, which coincidently happens to be my favourie BA build.

 

I think someone mentioned earlier they'd rather have the GK Heavy Support over BA's ? I couldn't disagree more - I'd rather have AC/LC fast Preds please.

[FeralJim]

In 5th ed we are an adaptive force. we shoot what we cant assault and we assault what we can't out shoot. Guard, we can't out shoot them however we have the speed to be getting most of our army lined up for turn 2 assaults... Now onto an assault army such as Orks. whilst Ba's can go toe to toe with orks in close combat the same army that rushed forward in razorbacks and with jump packs to get second turn charges on guard can use it's speed and firepower to out shoot orks... In this way speed gives us the abilty to play both games well but none brilliantly, ie your battle plan will change with every opponent.

 

So I hope that helps a little. If you like I could provide examples of some Blood Angel Unit si find exceptionally good

 

Also Strikes are better than you give them credit for, much better. Mathamatically speaking GK terminators are the weak troop link in that book.

 

Regards,

Crynn

 

Wooo! Lots of replies last night! And so many polite, well structured arguments! B/C is seeming pretty good right now about now gents.

 

Hey Crynn! I see you post on 3plusplus. I've been reading Kirbys stuff for about a year now. I was glad when you joined the team. Though I do feel like Kirby has gotten slack with the writing ever since he moved house... the :cusser.

 

I hear what your saying Crynn. As with any "Fast" army in gaming, the strategy is all about turning your speed into more tangible advantages. Gaining side shots on the enemy increases your firepower, so does negating their cover. Out-ranging their melee units and making sure your always in cover yourself bumps your defensive stats. These are good things. It can be hard to see this at a glance.

 

When you consider BA pay 15 points for Fast and GK pay 5 for fortitude you can sometimes feel cheated. Often I end up hedging myself into the belief that speed does nothing. "It doesn't make you shoot or take hits any better >>> Riflemen", "If your a combat unit sure, you reach them first, but they traded their fast to be better than you in CC so your speed means nothing in the end >>> Purifiers". But I suppose in retrospect that isn't strictly true. Your examples against fighting IG & Orks were fantastic Crynn. They hit the nail on the head.

 

I think that maybe my problems come from comparing Razorspam GK lists to Razorspam BA lists, in which case the BA just come up short. You get less firepower and less combat potential for speed which in this case, gains you almost nothing. SW are another example of an army who's Razorspam just seems better. For the exact same reasons. You pay a high points cost to reach combat faster (and get the charge) but this is basically useless against Grey Hunters.

 

I suppose I am just talking about the grass being greener. But that's not always the case. Those same GK/SW lists might pants BA but because they are so slow they could struggle against more shooting-heavy armies or real close combat monsters. Rock/Paper/Scissors. BA just happen to be the Paper to every other Marines Scissors. When the game is full of Marine armies... Ugh. Speed isn't usually a great advantage when fighting other Marines eh? unless you have the CC to back it up (which BA don't).

 

All of this isn't to say you can't <_< the GK over... not at all. AV13 and FNP do wonders to cripple GK shooting. And like you said, with your speed you can avoid combat with their more expensive Halberd units. The reason these lists work against GK is because they mostly work on durability or shooting though.

 

I would love for you to provide me with some examples of really good BA units and reasons why you like them. For example I look at the GK codex and think Purifiers, Riflemen, Paladins and DCA are all pretty crazy. This is probably just because they are *all* undercosted though. Where as I am firm believer that much of the cooler BA stuff is *overcosted*. Sanguinary Guard, Death Company with JPs, Vanguard Veterans, Baals and Vindicators (30 points for Scout/Fast) spring to mind.

 

I agree with what your saying about the DC- as much as I love them for what they are, in order to tackle a decent GK squad you have to add too many other bits and pieces and they become a too much of a points sink. Which leaves you with an expensive unit that doesn't count as scoring, nor does it get a discount on troop transports that a RAS gets. Once they are out of their transports they are quite easy to nullify. You can easily pull them away from an objective they could potentially contest and then just move one of your units on to take their place, this is especially true in the later stages of a game, or just tie them up against units they will never win against. Though if your plan is just to annihilate your enemy they can be cool.

 

Hey Amadeus! Glad you've stuck around mate.

 

I've come from WoW where items were all "budgeted" every stat on an item had a secret points cost so everything was perfectly balanced. I am sure that deep within GW's HQ they do the exact same thing, they are just more loose with the application. (Pyrovores, hah!)

 

With this in mind when you start to look at Genestealers, Wyches, Death Cult Assassins, Banshees, TWC, you begin to see a bit of a picture. They all have their own variances and styles but generally speaking they are fairly similar for their cost.

 

Death Company are garbage. I get it guys, you love them, I love them! I got into BA specifically because of DC. I read the 3rd edition codex back in the day, and that one fluff piece about the Sergeant jumping into combat while DC were tearing up aliens all around him. It was amazing. I had to have them in my army.

 

When 5th BA hit and I saw their new plastic kits, my jaw dropped. I was going to have 3 or 4 units in every army I told myself! These are the TRUE ANGELS OF DEATH then I started reading their rules. My jaw dropped again.

 

I'd like all of you go compare DC with any of the units I mentioned, it's a fair comparison. DC (like most marines) trade in a higher initiative for a better armour save. They have to take a transport because of rage, like most of those units (Stealers Infiltrate or Outflank). Banshees get lots of power weapons, but lower attacks, Wyches get lots of attacks, and 4+ CC invulnerable but no save out of combat. It's balanced. Just different flavours.

 

I'll say it again. DC are garbage. You don't pay one of your very precious troops choices for A) a unit you can't always control and :teehee: a unit that doesn't even score. These things alone are enough to make the unit bad, the only way to tip the scales from that point would have been to make them A-MAZING. They aren't even :cussing average! Any of those other units will tear DC apart for a much cheaper cost. It's beyond pathetic. I laugh at how bad DC are. Then I cry.

 

Moving onto the DC... I will put them up against almost anything in the game.

 

Hey Morollan. I'm glad you like Death Company. I wish I could too. It's not hard to make a Purifier squad (with the 4 Psycannons) that will faceroll the same points worth of Death Company (doesn't score, has rage, barely any shooting). Same goes for a squad of Wyches or [add CC unit here].

 

Anyways in my oppinion GK is the better codex, mostly because it gives more options for lists. Most my BA lists are hybrids while my GK lists allow for mech, terminator lists, crazy jump lists with interceptors, haven't tried henchmen though but I'll probably get to that at some point.

 

Drachnon! Henchmen iz where it is at, brother. Let's you field the big insane squads of the GK stuff while still covering all your bases in shooting and scoring.

 

I totally feel you on the bland BA variety. I can deal with the overpowered units, but it just feels unfair that GK get a codex with such strong options, and then so many different builds aswell. I would say they get a good 3x more decent armies than BA can make (off the top of my head I can think of 8... here, I will post them. Took me about an hour to make the lot). None of those will be absolutely garbage, half of them are really strong, and a couple decent.

 

ACOLYTE 10 boxes, 30TL assault, 8 assault, 12 cannon, 2 hammer, 2 halberd, 2 combat

FLAMESTORM 8 boxes, 10 HFlamer, 15 melta, 12 cannon, 6 combat

INFANTRY 80 bodies, 24 assault, 2 hammer, 10 halberd, 8 combat

LASER 9 boxes, 18 lasers, 12 cannons, 12 plasma shots

PALADIN 15 termies, 24 assault, 26 storm, 2 hammer, 5 halberd

PURIFIER 7 boxes, 48 assault, 12 cannon shots, 4 hammer, 8 halberd, 4 combat

RAIDER 3 raider, 3TL melta, 12TL assault, 52 S5 shots, 3 missiles, 2 combat

TELEPORT 3 mcs, 32 assault, 5 hammer, 10 halberd, 5 combat

 

While I won't argue that GKs are not a very powerful book, I think the OP needs to re-read some of the rules concerning them. (either that or his posts are just confusing.).

 

1.) 205 point strike squad with 2 psycannons is not possible, you can only get 1 psycannon per 5 guys.

2.) Purifiers are nasty, but once you kit them out to fight all comers they are not super in CC. Usually you would look at 4 psycannons,(or 2 and 2 incinerators), 5 Halberds and a hammer (to be an all around unit most people choose either shooty or assaulty). Doing this makes the squad 300 points + a Rhino so 340. Not all that cheap. And good in CC but not great (WS 4 means they still miss half the time, S4-5 means they probably do 3 Wounds at I6, then get a bunch of non-PW swings, if you have a dedicated assault unit they will tear up the purifiers.)

3.)Dreadknights are worse against most things the Furiousos. Many units cannot reliably hurt AV13 in CC, everything in the game can hurt T6. Blood Talons means against units without invul saves the Furiouso gets far more attacks. Throw on top of that if you want the Dreadknight to be fast it costs over 200 points. (Sure a Furiouso usually needs a storm raven, but that can also bring said squad of TH/SS termies, doubling up 2 for 1, and adds shooting).

4.) GK termies and Paladins are elite shooty termies (and are good in CC.) but they lack the durability of TH/SS termies against AP1-2 due to having a poor invul save. Now you can say they can take shrouding to get the same save but that costs you and HQ slot and a minimum of 155 points. VS TH/SS termies that get it for 5 points per model in BA.

 

Henchmen are good, but some things to remember

 

15 point storm shields while good, at T3 are less survivable against non armor ignoring attacks than a standard marine (far less than one with FNP). DCA are great, if your army provides enough threats to make them not target priority 1. If they get blown out of their transport they die pretty quickly. Also remember that they do not have grenades so go at I1 if they assault into terrain. Servitors look great until you consider mind lock and realize that you can only have 2 reliable units of them in your army and only if you use both HQ slots for inquisitors (so no Libby psychic powers.). Henchmen also all have low LD, so if you kill a few of them they might run.

 

Again not saying that they are bad, but they (like everything else) have weaknesses.

 

This man knows where it's at. That's a very good assessment of their units strengths and weaknesses Breng. I've been there, done that. I understand they can be beaten, I also realize that were GK and everyone else to not tailor, and build all-comers lists, then they would have a huge advantage over pretty much every other Codex. Something is wrong with that. The game is still Rock/Paper/Scissors but it just so happens GK have Rock AND Scissors.

 

Furioso's pertain mainly to your local meta. Mine is full of Melta, Monstrous Creatures (or both!) in almost every army. So having an expensive, non-transport vehicle that aims to close with the enemy just doesn't work. I would much rather a Monstrous Creature of my own, weak to tank shocking that they are.

 

Shrouding doesn't even protect Paladins forever. Not unless they want to be rediculously slow. Cover won't always be there for them, especially if the enemies vehicles are fast =P I do think 15 points for +1 wound and WS and discounts on all their weapons is too cheap though. 20 with no discounts would have been fairer.

 

Most of the time you will be lucky to field one unit of Servitors (3 MM/PCs with a Jokaero, Inquis and Chimaera camping the midfield) but it does mean that one of your combat units isn't making use of Grenades. Which is all kinds of fail anyway. It's nice you get the choice though.

 

DCA are pretty crazy, even without Assault Grenades.

 

Your right about the Strike Squad. Obviously I :cussed up somewhere. This addition would make the ASM better at popping tanks at under 3". Still a terrible comparison for them though. They are worse at everything else.

 

FeralJim, one thing to keep in mind when looking at the price of a weapon (say your thudner hammer example above) is what is being traded for it. Of course someone trading in a chainsword for a thunder hammer pays more than someone trading a Nemesis Force Sword for it.

 

James, the upgrade costs are pretty meaningless. What matters at the end of the day is how much the model costs (total) and what it does for that money.

 

A Death Company Marine with Thunder Hammer is 50 points. For 29 you get a Purifier with Daemon Hammer. So for 20 points less you gain Cleansing Flame, Hammerhand (S10 Hammers), a Stormbolter, a Force Weapon and ATSKNF. You lose Fearless, FNP, Furious Charge, Relentless, (well, Storm Bolters...), WS5 and Rage. Personally I would take the Purifier every time. Even without the Halberds they are a better combat unit. And obviously better at shooting.

[SevenExxes]

I like Tennis.

Do you like Tennis?

 

Tennis has a statistic called Forced Errors.

[Mezkh]

A Death Company Marine with Thunder Hammer is 50 points. For 29 you get a Purifier with Daemon Hammer. So for 20 points less you gain Cleansing Flame, Hammerhand (S10 Hammers), a Stormbolter, a Force Weapon and ATSKNF. You lose Fearless, FNP, Furious Charge, Relentless, (well, Storm Bolters...), WS5 and Rage. Personally I would take the Purifier every time. Even without the Halberds they are a better combat unit. And obviously better at shooting.

 

 

A DCM with a Powerfist is 45 points. Oh and the base DCM is only 20 points.

 

You know how good WS5 is for Fists and Hammers right? How many Hammers can you take in a Purifier Squad? Can Purifiers reroll their Hammer misses against moving vehicles? I don't believe they have access to any rerolls at all?

 

DC walk over a unit of Purifiers in combat. It's not even competitive contest. Terminators are a different story and need to be dealt with more carefully.

[Morollan]

With this in mind when you start to look at Genestealers, Wyches, Death Cult Assassins, Banshees, TWC, you begin to see a bit of a picture. They all have their own variances and styles but generally speaking they are fairly similar for their cost.

 

Moving onto the DC... I will put them up against almost anything in the game.

 

Hey Morollan. I'm glad you like Death Company. I wish I could too. It's not hard to make a Purifier squad (with the 4 Psycannons) that will faceroll the same points worth of Death Company (doesn't score, has rage, barely any shooting). Same goes for a squad of Wyches or [add CC unit here].

 

I've played DC vs Purifiers, Genestealers, Wyches, Death Cult Assassins, Banshees and TH/SS terminators. They've beaten them all. I really don't think you appreciate just how incredible the ability to reroll failed hits and wounds is. As long as you get the charge you should easily beat all of the above.

 

I say again, the ONLY time I've ever had any problem with DC was with a 6-man unit of them against 9 tyranid warriors with boneswords and lashwhips (which were over twice as expensive as my DC). Even then, the only reason they got the better of me was that I pointed out to my opponent that he hadn't move one of his units in his turn and allowed him to do so. If I'd stayed quiet about that the DC would have been charging them instead of the warriors.

 

I'd also like to reiterate that if GK were so utterly awesome then they would be dominating the tournament scene. Yet, despite very significant numbers of GK players, there are very few GK tournament wins (Blackmoor's Draigowing at NOVA last year is the only one that I've heard of). GK is a fairly balanced book and BA can compete with them, even if it is a trickier proposition than certain other armies. Play to your strengths and exploit their weaknesses. Either that or play GK! :D

[breng77]

You know how good WS5 is for Fists and Hammers right? How many Hammers can you take in a Purifier Squad? Can Purifiers reroll their Hammer misses against moving vehicles? I don't believe they have access to any rerolls at all?

 

DC walk over a unit of Purifiers in combat. It's not even competitive contest. Terminators are a different story and need to be dealt with more carefully.

 

Purifiers could take 10 hammers if they wanted to (you won't ever see it but they could).

 

They can get re-rolls to hit with a brotherhood champion (but again you will likely never see this) or potentially re-rolls or auto-hits with Psykotroke grenades(which really can make just about any good HtH GK unit potentially better than any other assault unit.)

 

As for DC vs Purifiers, if (and this is a big if because you likely won't see a squad outfitted as such) purifiers are outfitted for CC (with grenade caddy) it comes down to who gets the charge. On the charge the purifiers will win, if the psykotroke roll is a 2 or 3 the purifiers will win, if the DC charge they likely win because purifiers don't have enough attacks to kill all of the before they get to swing back.

[the jeske]

I've played DC vs Purifiers, Genestealers, Wyches, Death Cult Assassins, Banshees and TH/SS terminators. They've beaten them all. I really don't think you appreciate just how incredible the ability to reroll failed hits and wounds is. As long as you get the charge you should easily beat all of the above.

thing is the charge part is tricky . It either forces you to run a 400+pts unit[chaplain DC +transport] or is a bit cheaper but the transport may blow up now[rhino only av11]. purfires have a longer range and with 4 psycannons can actualy do something , they do ok in hth they are brutal against horde , but melee is not where they shine . They are take either because someone doesnt like paladins[god only know why] or to spam them and get maximum number of psycannon shots in minimum points played.

also if you get charged by a unit of DC assassins from WH or DH dex the DC is rolled hard . the banshees can do that too if they get doom . all those units also cost less then the DC . This means that your opponents can either spam melee units or he gets more support[so your getting off the charge is harder to do] .

 

Only viable anwser to all GK builds is a mixed army like the type mort plays and event hat can offten have games turn in to a draw , if the GK players decieds to box his army .

[knife&fork]

I'll say it again. DC are garbage. You don't pay one of your very precious troops choices for A) a unit you can't always control and :) a unit that doesn't even score. These things alone are enough to make the unit bad, the only way to tip the scales from that point would have been to make them A-MAZING. They aren't even :cussing average! Any of those other units will tear DC apart for a much cheaper cost. It's beyond pathetic. I laugh at how bad DC are. Then I cry.

 

So how many times have you actually fielded DC? I was skeptical at first too, but the more I use them the more I like them. Straight up comparing them against another unit from another codex isn't interesting. What matters is that they perform in the context of BA lists. And "precious troop choices"? If there's one thing I don't worry about it's running out of those, well maybe at 2500, but that's not exactly standard points level.

 

Another thing I've found it's that rage isn't as much of an issue as people think it is. In imaginary land they will kited around the board by a landspeeder but that doesn't happen on the board. Doesn't matter if you take a pod, transport, storm raven or jump packs. You have control of where to deploy them. JP DC in particular have a 18" charge range and a 24" threat range for shooting, 36" if you sprinkle some bolters in there. If that's the closest target then odds are there's nothing else left on the board.

[SnorriSnorrison]

FeralJim,

 

as you told us here in this forum that you had read Crynn's evaluation on GK and BA in this topic, I thought that it was quite obvious to you that he suggested to build around synergy rather than a 1:1 comparison. Because that is what you basically do.

 

You take Purifiers(which are nice and all, but not overpowered...I mean who needs cleansing flame when you can re-roll all 'to-hits' and 'to-wounds'?)and put them against DC. Of course they are cheaper, because they are not capable of reaching DC in combat. And, by the way, these units are totally different.

 

So you say those halberds will cripple any attacker?

I'm not a friend of statistics in this game, but in this case, it seems appropriate to apply a bit of simple math.

Starting with that 'famous build' 5 halberds:

DC of 9 and chappy and some pws charge. Initiative 5 all around, but the halberds don't care:

 

5 men/w halberds = 2 base attacks/no hammerhand due to hood = 10 attacks at WS4 and S4.

5 miss per statistics: 1/2

2,5 fail to wound per statistics: 1/4

So, you have just killed 2,5(let's say three) DC Marines. So, what now?

 

The Purifiers get struck down to the last man. Every DC marine has 4 attacks WS5 S5 and Init5, and re-rolls to wound and to hit. Some powerweapons spread out in the squad, and away you go.

 

Now you're saying, 'but the Purifiers are cheaper!', well, that's true. But not of interest, I think.

Those are two very famous builds of DC and Purifiers, and will probably end up in CC in a game(that's the way I'd go at least), so they'll be messing with each other...and the DC will win as long as they charge.

If the Blood Angels player chooses Lemartes over a Chaplain and gets the charge, he'll have initiative 7, negating them halberds and put some early hurt on that unit.

DC are not garbage either. They are great, a lot of people use them in their armies with great success(me included) because they can take the fight to units much bigger than them and win that fight, and looking bloody good at it! They mow down hordes, elite units, MCs(especially Dreadknights ;) ), basically everything if supported properly.

 

You keep mentioning that DC use precious Troop choice slots and do not score. As a reply, may I ask how many Troop choices you fill out every game and how those troops are not enough to score so you could complain in this way? :)

DC do not hold objectives, they should not and they cannot. That's the whole point you seem to miss. They eradicate anything that sits on an objective, and move on to bring the slaughter and/or die.

 

Keep in mind that a 1:1 comparison is never useful in this game, because armies don't consist of one unit each. A well-balanced army in the hands of a skilled gamer is better than a 'OMG auto-win lulz!!11oneone' army in the hands of a total newbie(who tend to make such statements, I've heard. :)).

 

By your view, BA(or any other codex) would have serious problems against GK anytime. I disagree, but the reasons why have been listed by a lot of people before me, so I'll keep it to that. Let's just say that I disagree and think that our builds have advantages that allow us to exploit the GK's weaknesses in movement, CC and even shooting. And these builds are not necessarily RB-spam of any kind.

 

I would love for you to provide me with some examples of really good BA units and reasons why you like them. For example I look at the GK codex and think Purifiers, Riflemen, Paladins and DCA are all pretty crazy. This is probably just because they are *all* undercosted though. Where as I am firm believer that much of the cooler BA stuff is *overcosted*. Sanguinary Guard, Death Company with JPs, Vanguard Veterans, Baals and Vindicators (30 points for Scout/Fast) spring to mind.

 

Of course the good stuff is expensive, wouldn't make sense otherwise, eh? :D Yes, them GK units are a bit undercosted, that is true. However, our units can bring a lot more to the table than just some noteworthy damage output in the shooting/combat phase.

 

SG, DC and Vanguards are really fast-moving, hardhitting units that can be very survivable against incoming fire, thanks to cover and FnP. Baals and Vindicators are always fast and do not rely on psychic powers to work properly(and a fast Vindi is worth the points.).

Just take a look at Vanguard Veterans. They come very pricey, but Heroic Intervention combined with Descent of Angels is almost broken, and they're cheaper than their equivalents in the SM Codex.

SG are scalpel units that bring the hurt to tanks and infantry of any kind. Their special weapons(plasma/infernus pistols) and equipment(chapter banner) make sure they hit like a thunderstorm(preferably with FC/FnP) and can shake off small arms fire like rain.

DC are the true hammer amongst the BA assault units, and I haven't seen many units that can stand a charge of properly equipped DC with a Chaplain/Lemartes, especially not units like Terminators.

 

 

 

Oh, and that small remark about bringing the assault to SW Grey Hunters being a bad idea...I do it every time and I'm quite successful with DC and Sanguinary Guard. ;)

 

 

Another thing I've found it's that rage isn't as much of an issue as people think it is. In imaginary land they will kited around the board by a landspeeder but that doesn't happen on the board. Doesn't matter if you take a pod, transport, storm raven or jump packs. You have control of where to deploy them. JP DC in particular have a 18" charge range and a 24" threat range for shooting, 36" if you sprinkle some bolters in there. If that's the closest target then odds are there's nothing else left on the board.

 

I agree with this. The Rage forces them to move towards the enemy, but that's were you want to be anyways. ;)

 

 

 

 

Snorri

[Dropsik]

When you consider BA pay 15 points for Fast and GK pay 5 for fortitude you can sometimes feel cheated. Often I end up hedging myself into the belief that speed does nothing. "It doesn't make you shoot or take hits any better >>> Riflemen", "If your a combat unit sure, you reach them first, but they traded their fast to be better than you in CC so your speed means nothing in the end >>> Purifiers". But I suppose in retrospect that isn't strictly true. Your examples against fighting IG & Orks were fantastic Crynn. They hit the nail on the head.

dude. did you even played against that unit? even simple Furious Charged assault squad can easily take them off. I mean, yeah, purfiers are cool, but not because they hit hard in CC, but because they have access to 4 psycannonns at 10 points, and they can repel some small squads heading in their way. but they aren't jack of all trades man. charge them with nice big unit of assault marines/DC/Terminators and they will be obliterated.

and you are very wrong about Fast rule. Positioning your units is essential to winning game. It can deny cover, it can make you shoot at side or rear armour, you can position yourself that only one unit sees you, destroy that unit, and in next turn repeat the process. you can tank shock 12" and still shoot, you can ram 18", you can move scoring unit up to 18" on a objective. dude, there's more to this game than a simple amount of firepower. Fortitude is very cool rule, but it is a LD check, so sometimes you will fail it and sometimes you will roll peril and sometimes it will be blocked by psychic hood. I love this special rule too, but I also love my fast predators and razors.

I think that maybe my problems come from comparing Razorspam GK lists to Razorspam BA lists, in which case the BA just come up short. You get less firepower and less combat potential for speed which in this case, gains you almost nothing. SW are another example of an army who's Razorspam just seems better. For the exact same reasons. You pay a high points cost to reach combat faster (and get the charge) but this is basically useless against Grey Hunters.

I mean, ekhm, why? Throw assault squad at them and they'll lose combat and will have to check LD. Throw DC/Terminators/Sanguinary Guard/Vanguard and they'll see Valhalla? Whats useless here? Again, did you even play against them? You can even throw Mephiston at them and then tell your friends a tale of 1 man army butchering through some wolfies losing two wounds or three.

I suppose I am just talking about the grass being greener. But that's not always the case. Those same GK/SW lists might pants BA but because they are so slow they could struggle against more shooting-heavy armies or real close combat monsters. Rock/Paper/Scissors. BA just happen to be the Paper to every other Marines Scissors. When the game is full of Marine armies... Ugh. Speed isn't usually a great advantage when fighting other Marines eh? unless you have the CC to back it up (which BA don't).

I don't know what you are trying to say man, that SW outshoot us and outcombat us? Man, you're deeply wrong. We shoot similar - it comes down to preferences really - you prefer long fangs, or do you prefer fast auto/las preds. our razors are better because they are cheaper and faster. And our combat is better. you know why? Because we have FnP and FC. We strike before SW. Sure, SW player can field thunderwolves, or Lord on a thunderwolf. Throw DC or Terminators at them and it's all over.

I would love for you to provide me with some examples of really good BA units and reasons why you like them. For example I look at the GK codex and think Purifiers, Riflemen, Paladins and DCA are all pretty crazy. This is probably just because they are *all* undercosted though. Where as I am firm believer that much of the cooler BA stuff is *overcosted*. Sanguinary Guard, Death Company with JPs, Vanguard Veterans, Baals and Vindicators (30 points for Scout/Fast) spring to mind.

ok.

1. Death Company - about 8 - 9 man unit, 1 Power Fist, 3 Power Weapons, 1 dude have bolter to help with wound allocation. Accompanied by Chaplain/Reclusiarch, put into Land Raider of any variant (I use normal LR), or SR. If you like it cheap - a rhino. This unit can tear everything you face in WH40K apart from Paladin/10 Hammernators units.

2. Assault Terminators - 5 of them, accompanied by Librarian/Chaplain and Priest. 3 x LC and 2 x TH/SS. You have a unit of FnP FC Terminators re reolling to hit and re rolling to wound with 5 strenght. Put them in LR or a SR. The effects are the same as above. For added survivability, exchange 1 pair of claws for third hammer and shield.

3. Furioso Librarian - ultimate tarpit unit. Throw it at something without easy access to strenght 9/10 and you will propably munch that unit in two or three turns. Throw it at crushers, throw it at marines, throw it at orcs. WS 6 and AV13 means you can survive a lot.

4. Vanguards - a tricky CC specialist. Easy to get carried over. I use 10 man unit with 2 single claws and two power fists. Love to catch those long fangs or some Purifiers or Dreadys if my opponent forget about warpquake. But, word of advice, you need to practice with this unit.

5. Mephiston - I started to use him about 3 or 4 months ago, and he doesn't let me down. Try him, you will see.

6. Sanguinary Guards - use them against enemy infrantry, preferable without Invulnerable Saves, or Halberds. Grey Hunters, Strike Squads, BA units, BT units, Eldar units, small Ork units and so on. I personally don't like them, but it's a matter of taste.

7. Assault Squads. Humble Assault Squad equipedd with 2 meltas and Power Fist is a fearsome unit in BA. Add Librarian and/or Priest and you have a CC hitter. You can fight with almost everything on the board, you can pop transports, then assault it's cargos. They also give you access to cheap razors.

 

We can go so through whole BA codex, with shooting options, board control options, support options. But for me, it looks like you talk too much with some of your friends about GK, and you don't see how they fare on tournaments. Make no mistake, GK are powerfull, I wouldn't name them undercosted, but I would name them broken in some ways, like fortitude and shrouding. But, I heard the same about fast predators and DC when BA codex got out.

 

Death Company are garbage. I get it guys, you love them, I love them! I got into BA specifically because of DC. I read the 3rd edition codex back in the day, and that one fluff piece about the Sergeant jumping into combat while DC were tearing up aliens all around him. It was amazing. I had to have them in my army.

 

When 5th BA hit and I saw their new plastic kits, my jaw dropped. I was going to have 3 or 4 units in every army I told myself! These are the TRUE ANGELS OF DEATH then I started reading their rules. My jaw dropped again.

 

I'd like all of you go compare DC with any of the units I mentioned, it's a fair comparison. DC (like most marines) trade in a higher initiative for a better armour save. They have to take a transport because of rage, like most of those units (Stealers Infiltrate or Outflank). Banshees get lots of power weapons, but lower attacks, Wyches get lots of attacks, and 4+ CC invulnerable but no save out of combat. It's balanced. Just different flavours.

 

I'll say it again. DC are garbage. You don't pay one of your very precious troops choices for A) a unit you can't always control and a unit that doesn't even score. These things alone are enough to make the unit bad, the only way to tip the scales from that point would have been to make them A-MAZING. They aren't even :cussing average! Any of those other units will tear DC apart for a much cheaper cost. It's beyond pathetic. I laugh at how bad DC are. Then I cry.

For example. You know what's funny about stealers? they don't have grenades. and they have rending, which in 5th edition is a meh rule. You know whats funny about Banshees? they also have to take transport. And Serpents, or Falcons are how you say it? GARBAGE. And banshees need doom to start doing something. Wyches are now so bad, and have so many issues I won't even start talking about them.

 

Now, I don't want you to think I say DC is a unit above all units. No. It have some of it's own drawbacks - main one being the need of transport. I played BA since third eddition. Rhino Rush, Assault Cannon Spam, 4th Edition PDF, 5th Edition PDF, 5th Edition BA codex. In all incarnations of BA I loved that 3rd and Assault Cannon Spam the most. The fluff was great, BA were cool badasses with some anger management problems. New incarnations turned them into some emo weaklings which I hate. But fluff apart, 5th edition Codex is propably just as powerfull as that 3rd edition one.

BUT, the DC that we now have, is the one, that hit the hardest. It's an expensive module to take, with a transport and a chaplain, but it pays of very often.

 

Hey Morollan. I'm glad you like Death Company. I wish I could too. It's not hard to make a Purifier squad (with the 4 Psycannons) that will faceroll the same points worth of Death Company (doesn't score, has rage, barely any shooting). Same goes for a squad of Wyches or [add CC unit here].

as some of us pointed it out, it is in fact the other way round.

 

 

Now I understand that you like GK codex. I do too. I now play coteaz list mixed with some terminators and have very good results. But, I also play BA codex and I don't feel I'm robbed, or cheated. Some of our units are better, some are worse. It would be strange if we had all the best units possible.

 

Play more, go to a competitve big tournaments, stop talking with GK fanboys :)

 

cheers!

[Morticon]

Well said Snorri, Knife, Jeske and others!!

 

Feral, I just dont get it, man. Every tournament i've won in the last year has had DC in em.

It's not just a "oh, you like them, so that's your opinion" kinda vibe, its something based on real life experiences.

Empirical evidence

 

I run my DC with a rhino, and will very rarely not get the charge.

 

I run my DC in one of two ways:

 

300 points, or 250.

 

9 man with TH, PF and PW in Rhino or 8man with PF, PW in Rhino.

 

I also did a trial run with 8 DC with a Fist, 6 PWs and a bolter. (325)

It MUNCHES whatever it touches.

 

I almost never run with a Chappy, but will occasionally run with a rage libby.

 

Im just struggling to see why your comparison of this unit in a vacuum is leading you to your conclusion.

You also seem to be making the mistake of valuing the BA's combat potential and prowess by putting it up against the GKs in a kinda PvP gladiator type situation. What about all the other lists and opponents?

 

DCs lack of scoring troop status mean you can use em as a fire and forget unit. Power them into the enemy line supported with other units and make the enemy make a tough choice- the scoring, important stuff, or the "unimportant" DC which will likely tear through the lines of a great chunk of armies.

 

Using the DC in a comparison against things like Paladins or DCAs is just odd. DC shouldnt be charging those units - not full strength units like that anyway. Its not (as noted) how the BA work.

We dont need one gigantic WIN Button unit that can beat every list/unit in the game jsut by being fielded. What we need is units that support each other in a synergised way.

DC add a lot to the synergy of a vast variety of lists and I believe their potential hasn't been tapped by a big chunk of tourney players State side- especially not the more vocal of internet "gurus".

 

Again, difficult to attempt to make you see another perspective on this without really understanding WHY you think the way you do.

As noted, scoring is a non-event - there are plenty of other scoring units.

Rage - a near non-event with proper movement.

And a poor comparison of what other specialist units in the GK list will tear the DC apart is also irrelevant. Its not about what specialist units can kill the DC, but more so what of everything else the DC can kill.

 

If you want a unit that goes toe-to-toe with everything, then Hammernators - there you have it. FNP Hammernators.

 

 

Would LOVE to see what your last competitive 1750 BA list was, or what your current 1750 GK competitive list is!

(or do you play 2k?)

[Morticon]

PS: Asking people to show units that are good in any one codex is flawed logic. You need to ask to see good combinations or good lists. That's where the difference is !

[breng77]

OK DC are good, but I think several of you really overrate them by assuming that you will always charge, and be at full strength when you do so. Sprinking powerweapons into the squad IMO is fail because you cause a bunch of wounds on the charge and then if I can allocate those wounds to fewer models (i.e. if you have 3 Power weapons, a fist, and 4-5 Normal guys, you do 9 PW wounds, and 12-16 non PW wounds, so 21-25 wounds, so accross a 10 man Purifier squad (4 Psycannons, 5 Halberds, Hammer), each guy takes 2 -3 wounds, so I can stack all 9 PW wounds on the 4 psycannons as well as 2-6 Regular wounds on them as well, leaving 10 saves on the halberds, and 2 on the Hammer, now I might live to see round 2 and kill a few more guys, or get back up)

 

Also people saying that they will kill 10 paladins, seems unlikely to me if the paladins are running things like banners.

 

Assuming that a hood will shut down psychic powers is fail (ask mephiston who I have force weaponed, sure odds are in your favor against LD 9 purifiers but what it there is an LD 10 character) IF you want to go assuming things beyond the squad in question, then I will assume the DC get charged after failing the charge due to sanctuary.

 

 

I've already said all that needs to be said, against the best CC purifiers DC win if they charge(but the squad nearly gets wiped), and lose badly if they get charged, or if crazy grenades go off in the purifiers favor.

 

That said a lot of people run minumum sized 5 man purifier squads with 2 psycannons and DC will slaughter these squads.

 

I think Morticon has the most balanced perspective I have seen on this thread, as part of a list with proper application DC = great, if you assume they are going to beat up DCA, or 10 Paladins, or other high I elite CC units, they are going to fail.

[Twin .44]

I'd like to add my two cents in on this as a Draigowing (New) and BA player (restarting).

 

But every time I play my Draigowing, I see more and more of their flaws than anything. If you're going to assault them, don't screw around and charge in a single assault squad. You will get slaughtered. This comparison everyone seems to be doing so far for this squad vs that squad is just useless. If you manage to bring an entire army down on a single squad of Paladin's, it will fall down. Concentrate everything you can on one squad at a time. They are tough as steel, but even steel melts.

 

Purifiers are great, they are an all comers batch of Grey Knights. They may not need your full attention for every unit in your army, but you would do well not to do a squad vs squad combat no matter what. Simply because you want to kill as much of them as you can before you finish them off. If you want to go up against them in combat, at least take a few out first.

 

All in all, think of it this way. Would you take one squad of tactical marines up against an ork boyz mob in close combat? Chances are, you'll take two tacticals with some back end support before you get there. It's the same principal all around. That's why (at least my own personal opinion) nobody should care who is better at what, and instead concentrate on how to kill it. I don't really care if Squad X can kill Squad Y in Z fashion, because I'm going to do what I can to NOT allow that to happen. If you're up against an opponent that knows what they are doing, this is what they will actually do. It doesn't matter what your army has, all that TRULY matters is that you know how to use it.

[Morticon]

OK DC are good, but I think several of you really overrate them by assuming that you will always charge, and be at full strength when you do so. Sprinking powerweapons into the squad IMO is fail because you cause a bunch of wounds on the charge and then if I can allocate those wounds to fewer models (i.e. if you have 3 Power weapons, a fist, and 4-5 Normal guys, you do 9 PW wounds, and 12-16 non PW wounds, so 21-25 wounds, so accross a 10 man Purifier squad (4 Psycannons, 5 Halberds, Hammer), each guy takes 2 -3 wounds, so I can stack all 9 PW wounds on the 4 psycannons as well as 2-6 Regular wounds on them as well, leaving 10 saves on the halberds, and 2 on the Hammer, now I might live to see round 2 and kill a few more guys, or get back up)

 

Breng, its not as bad as you you think.

 

8 Guys with 3 PWs, 1 fist and 4 normals means:

 

vs. MEq : 6 PW wounds, 8or9 Regular - 14/15 Total at init 5.

 

This means that on a squad of 10 guys, you dont get a wrap around.

On a squad of 5, you do, but then every model is taking 3 saves anyway, meaning by probability, youre likely to fail all of em.

 

 

Another reason why a sprinkling of PW here and there isnt bad is on account of what you said before.

You're not likely to get there full strength. Youre going to take wounds - especially if youre up against Halberds. Rather lose those non-PW attacks.

 

One last reason is how you use the DC and what you use em for. Id much prefer those Daemon Princes or any other big gribblies to be taking 5++ saves than 3+ saves!

[eyeslikethunder]

Yet, despite very significant numbers of GK players, there are very few GK tournament wins (Blackmoor's Draigowing at NOVA last year is the only one that I've heard of). GK is a fairly balanced book and BA can compete with them, even if it is a trickier proposition than certain other armies. Play to your strengths and exploit their weaknesses. Either that or play GK! :D

 

Tony kopach(SW) won nova he beat blackmoor(GK Draigowing)

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2011/08/28/...-drama-tracker/

 

You can watch the game through the link but it is wolves but it is a good example of basic marines beating elite superior GK. Through sheer numbers. Taking out the rocks support units at range than destroying the exposed rock.

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/16943265

 

http://www.3plusplus.net/2011/09/2011-nova...00-results.html

 

The tournament results gave the BA a higher win rate than GK although it was close. So GK are good but not unbeatable.

[breng77]

Breng, its not as bad as you you think.

 

8 Guys with 3 PWs, 1 fist and 4 normals means:

 

vs. MEq : 6 PW wounds, 8or9 Regular - 14/15 Total at init 5.

 

This means that on a squad of 10 guys, you dont get a wrap around.

On a squad of 5, you do, but then every model is taking 3 saves anyway, meaning by probability, youre likely to fail all of em.

 

 

Another reason why a sprinkling of PW here and there isnt bad is on account of what you said before.

You're not likely to get there full strength. Youre going to take wounds - especially if youre up against Halberds. Rather lose those non-PW attacks.

 

One last reason is how you use the DC and what you use em for. Id much prefer those Daemon Princes or any other big gribblies to be taking 5++ saves than 3+ saves!

 

Very True, I also did my calculations with a Chaplain and 10 guys at which point your wound out put is much higher, but even so with 14-15 wounds on a 10 man squad it is a bit worse as I wrap around just now i only need to take 1 regular save on other models, now this is not a big issue with standard marines where in order to allocate those wounds away, they would have to lose the sargent and both special and heavy weapons, and regular marines are not scarey fro Death Company. And you are also right against halberds, if you lose the non-PW guys you won't wrap around, because you will lose 3 or 4 regular guys and so only have PWs swinging back. As I said I think that DC win against a lot of things so long as they charge.

[Dropsik]

Sprinking powerweapons into the squad IMO is fail because you cause a bunch of wounds on the charge and then if I can allocate those wounds to fewer models (i.e. if you have 3 Power weapons, a fist, and 4-5 Normal guys, you do 9 PW wounds, and 12-16 non PW wounds, so 21-25 wounds, so accross a 10 man Purifier squad (4 Psycannons, 5 Halberds, Hammer), each guy takes 2 -3 wounds, so I can stack all 9 PW wounds on the 4 psycannons as well as 2-6 Regular wounds on them as well, leaving 10 saves on the halberds, and 2 on the Hammer, now I might live to see round 2 and kill a few more guys, or get back up)

and here comes the competitiveness :D

it's all about positioning. lets talk about DC in transportm because in my opinion, and propably most of other players, thats the way they should be played now. let's also assume the DC unit has 3 power weapons and chaplain/librarian attached to the squad. depending on what transport you use the tactic varies, but you can figure it out yourself. let's assume the hop out of LR, because it's a little more difficult than a rhino. so, you deploy you unit in such manner, that you are 6" away from your enemy, and first model charging is a PW guy. next model is putted 2" behind that model, and it's also a PW guy. Third model is placed 2" behind the second, now you place chaplain/libby 2" from the third. In LR deployment you can for example deploy power weapons on left side, creating line in front of and putting chainsworded guys on a right side. like this:

 

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd407/Dropsiq/IMAG0072.jpg

 

so, when you charge, only the first PW model guy gets base to base, then you pile in, and you can only catch PW models. So, although you are in combat with whole unit, and eventual casualties can be taken from chainswords, only PW and chaplain will hit evapourating you purifiers.

 

Also people saying that they will kill 10 paladins, seems unlikely to me if the paladins are running things like banners.

it is also possible. you need to tank shock him in such way, that you separate one or two models from main unit, then block the way of pile in move with second tank, and then just assault that separated models. you will fight with whole unit, he will fight with only two models. you can guess the outcome. done it many times to draigowing players, love the look of their faces :D

 

But every time I play my Draigowing, I see more and more of their flaws than anything. If you're going to assault them, don't screw around and charge in a single assault squad. You will get slaughtered. This comparison everyone seems to be doing so far for this squad vs that squad is just useless. If you manage to bring an entire army down on a single squad of Paladin's, it will fall down. Concentrate everything you can on one squad at a time. They are tough as steel, but even steel melts.

quoted for truth. Draigowing is the weakest build in GK codex.

 

cheers!

[Twin .44]

But every time I play my Draigowing, I see more and more of their flaws than anything. If you're going to assault them, don't screw around and charge in a single assault squad. You will get slaughtered. This comparison everyone seems to be doing so far for this squad vs that squad is just useless. If you manage to bring an entire army down on a single squad of Paladin's, it will fall down. Concentrate everything you can on one squad at a time. They are tough as steel, but even steel melts.

quoted for truth. Draigowing is the weakest build in GK codex.

 

I wouldn't go that far. Like any army, it really depends on who is running it. If you were to go list vs list, I would be inclined to agree with you. But if you add in a shrewd player that knows top to bottom how to deal with just about any situation, and they will certainly be a handful at minimum. If a Draigowing player simply marches forward, he is going to get beat down. One that adjusts and adapts (I'm guessing more water warrior style) is going to cause problems for you. Sure, I can wipe out that squad of tacticals, but after I do, that vindicator is going to break my face open. So I'll shoot that instead. Meanwhile captain "KILL KILL KILL!!!" is going to take out the tactical squad.

 

That's the only thing that makes a Draigwing army worth a crap, who's calling the shots.

[Dropsik]

I wouldn't go that far. Like any army, it really depends on who is running it. If you were to go list vs list, I would be inclined to agree with you. But if you add in a shrewd player that knows top to bottom how to deal with just about any situation, and they will certainly be a handful at minimum. If a Draigowing player simply marches forward, he is going to get beat down. One that adjusts and adapts (I'm guessing more water warrior style) is going to cause problems for you. Sure, I can wipe out that squad of tacticals, but after I do, that vindicator is going to break my face open. So I'll shoot that instead. Meanwhile captain "KILL KILL KILL!!!" is going to take out the tactical squad.

 

That's the only thing that makes a Draigwing army worth a crap, who's calling the shots.

of course, you are right in that, the player runs the show. but in my opinion, Draigowing limits your options, limits the way you can play it. In fact, what can you do with a Draigowing? You can only go forward hoping your squad survives the punishment and that psydreads open transports. Can you play a flanking game? Can you play board control? In a very limited way maybe, but it's a losing game right from a start. The problem with Draigowing is it is too slow and has only a few units. you have one unit that needs to kill and kill fast. and it can't because it's foot slogging.

 

That's my opinion on Draigowing.

 

Cheers!

[Twin .44]

of course, you are right in that, the player runs the show. but in my opinion, Draigowing limits your options, limits the way you can play it. In fact, what can you do with a Draigowing? You can only go forward hoping your squad survives the punishment and that psydreads open transports. Can you play a flanking game? Can you play board control? In a very limited way maybe, but it's a losing game right from a start. The problem with Draigowing is it is too slow and has only a few units. you have one unit that needs to kill and kill fast. and it can't because it's foot slogging.

 

That's my opinion on Draigowing.

 

Cheers!

 

That's why we add in PTing Dreadknights, psyrifle dreads and the like. If you're talking 100% Paladins with Draigo, then I eliminate my argument and side with you <_< Any player that does that should just hand over the victory to the other player since just about anyone can Pepe Le Pew away.

[Dropsik]

example Draigowing looks like:

Draigo

Librarian

Paladins

Sometimes small unit of paladins

3 Psydreads

 

am I right? Depending on points it varies, but thats the most typical Draigowing lists being played right? In my opinion it doesn't leave much room for finessy or tactical games.

 

cheers!

[BloodTzar]

The smart GK players use 1 larger group and smaller one with LR plus soladin ... with some ven-riflemans...

 

Takes a genius to control <_<

[Amadeus Baal]

@ Feral- Ha ha, yea am still here, it's a great thread, I think you have started a cool debate.

 

Oh I don't don't think, DC are garbage, far from it. I think against other armies, as long as you get them on the ground where you want them, just point them at your target, wind them up and watch them go! I just think that against Gks, point for point, without any upgrades or any attached chars etc the Gks are better. I think it's easier and cheaper to upgrade a Gk than it is a DC. So personally I don't use them against Gks. Like I said in my first post though, there's plenty of other things in the BA army that can ruin a Gk's day especially against the Pally heavy armies. To me, it's all about timing your charges and co-ordinating your units, the right units to get the job done. So don't give up on them BAs yet.

 

I must admit I do like the speed aspect of the BAs, yea they are more expensive but to me it's a price worth paying. I think think the BA version of the Vindy and preds are far superior to the standard versions. Baal's are great I think, they take up fast attack slots and they can outflank. If you can't hit something head on, or go through it, go around it, or turn up behind it and I think BA are great at this.

 

Yea other armies like the wolves have tough units. But that's part of the fun to me. All armies should have tough elements that take a little thought to overcome. BA's have FC, plenty of units that can get behind/ drop behind GHs and/or tie up the LFs for a turn or two, until your ready to deal with them.

 

I do agree with your thoughts on the henchmen. If you can fit them in they are brill. I had to read the list entry on the psykers a few times before I believed it. For just a few points and a few guys they can really do some damage, yea they tend to kill themselves and are easily shot, but they are easy to protect and their power is an assault weapon! Especially against hordes they always seem to make a tidy points profit. That can be said about alot of the henchman really, so yea I agree with you there.