Grey Knights vs Blood Angels (a summary)

[Dropsik]

Takes a genius to control

hope you are joking <_<

 

cheers!

[Twin .44]

example Draigowing looks like:

Draigo

Librarian

Paladins

Sometimes small unit of paladins

3 Psydreads

 

am I right? Depending on points it varies, but thats the most typical Draigowing lists being played right? In my opinion it doesn't leave much room for finessy or tactical games.

 

cheers!

 

Right now I'm essentially in Beta Testing of my Draigowing army, but I won't touch psyrifle dreads with a ten foot pole. I rarely run dreads to begin with. They have a glass jaw and a set of good rolls from a Krak missile can take them out in a snap, but yeah, a lot of people seem to take psyrifle dreads like it's going out of style from what I've noticed. I can fit two in for the price of my Dreadknight, but I don't like giving up any more killpoints than I have to.

 

The one I tested against BA was as follows:

 

Draigo

Libby, Mastery 3, Stave, Shrouding, Sanctuary.

10 Paladins (kitted for wound allocation to all ten) w/4 Psycannons

5 Paladins(Same as above) w/2 Psycannons

Dreadknight w/PT, HI, NGS

 

Top of turn 6 the BA were wiped out. Basically a concession after turn top turn 3, but I went ahead anyway. The BA was not a tournament list, just something I run for fun, but the point struck home.

 

The smart GK players use 1 larger group and smaller one with LR plus soladin ... with some ven-riflemans...

 

Takes a genius to control :D

 

Saying I'm not a smart GK player? :P But the Ven-rifleman's, yeah, that's probably the best way to go about it. Remember, I'm sort of new to Draigowing.

[BloodTzar]

As the DC argument is getting way too theoretical, so I did little comparison with 2 similar units (same point value, almost same bonuses). Moreover both would use the same transport in my build (SR)

 

Unit A:

Chappy (PW-one he comes with)+ 8DC (3PF,2PW) = 12PW attacks, 9PF, 12 normal attacks - 3+/4+ FNP one model with 4++ 365p TOTAL

 

Unit B:

Libby (FW rage, w.ever second power) + Sang Priest (bare)+ 3TH/SS - 2LC Termies = 8PW (WS4) 4FW(WS5), 9TH attacks, 4 normal (WS5) attacks -

2+ ~ 3+ / 4+ FNP and 3x3++ 2x5++ 365p TOTAL

 

So as I did little math hammer, after all re rolls (assuming lib power went off) the results are:

 

Edited

its 21 attacks scored by DC as i made mistake in callculations and did not consider WS5 ... however i cannot edit this trough my ipad :D. it is increased by 2pw ans 4 normal ones.

 

Unit A: 17wounds scored out of which are 5PF,6PW,6normal

Unit B: 13 wounds scored out of which are 5TH,6PW,2normal

 

Only 4 normal wound difference in favour of DC, while still raging around the battlefield. On the other hand far more flexible unit (2+/3++ - 5++ and the possible use of 2nd power (SoS)) will still deal almost the same amount of damage, however being able to stand the punishment that might come after (not even mentioning the TH vs. PF argument).

[Dropsik]

Unit A:

Chappy (PW-one he comes with)+ 8DC (3PF,2PW) = 12PW attacks, 9PF, 12 normal attacks - 3+/4+ FNP one model with 4++ 365p TOTAL

 

Unit B:

Libby (FW rage, w.ever second power) + Sang Priest (bare)+ 3TH/SS - 2LC Termies = 8PW (WS4) 4FW(WS5), 9TH attacks, 4 normal (WS5) attacks -

2+ ~ 3+ / 4+ FNP and 3x3++ 2x5++ 365p TOTAL

 

So as I did little math hammer, after all re rolls (assuming lib power went off) the results are:

 

Unit A: 17 wounds scored out of which are 5PF,6PW,6normal

Unit B: 13 wounds scored out of which are 5TH,6PW,2normal

 

Only 4 normal wound difference in favour of DC, while still raging around the battlefield. On the other hand far more flexible unit (2+/3++ - 5++ and the possible use of 2nd power (SoS)) will still deal almost the same amount of damage, however being able to stand the punishment that might come after or the 2st turn of combat (not even mentioning the TH vs. PF argument).

dude, I think your math was a bit off. DC would score about (at WS4) 1.5 from Chaplain, 6 from PW, about 8 from PF and about 8 normal. remember re rolling to wound? and WS 5? so that would score about 23 wound from DC about 15 of the with no armour save. I would say 10 wounds is a bit of a advantage.

And why so Power Fisting? 3 Power Fists is a little overkill? 2 maybe, but 3? :D

 

Right now I'm essentially in Beta Testing of my Draigowing army, but I won't touch psyrifle dreads with a ten foot pole. I rarely run dreads to begin with. They have a glass jaw and a set of good rolls from a Krak missile can take them out in a snap, but yeah, a lot of people seem to take psyrifle dreads like it's going out of style from what I've noticed. I can fit two in for the price of my Dreadknight, but I don't like giving up any more killpoints than I have to.

 

The one I tested against BA was as follows:

 

Draigo

Libby, Mastery 3, Stave, Shrouding, Sanctuary.

10 Paladins (kitted for wound allocation to all ten) w/4 Psycannons

5 Paladins(Same as above) w/2 Psycannons

Dreadknight w/PT, HI, NGS

now we could talk a lot about that list and psydreads, but maybe not in this topic :P

 

cheers!

[BloodTzar]

yeah you right i should delete the post while beeing ashamed of my math ... forgot about the ws5 in the math :P

 

yup Dc is quite good in oneand only charge :D

 

3Pf's are there to simuate similar units ... as termies have 3 th's

[Twin .44]

now we could talk a lot about that list and psydreads, but maybe not in this topic :P

 

cheers!

 

Well, the point I was getting across is that psyrifle dreads are easy to kill, but I guess I went a little overboard on it :D Also that GK may not be as slow as someone thinks. Those dreadknights move pretty fast with a PT, so watch out for them. Although last test it got taken down by a Templar Crusader Squad. The point is to bog a lot of these units down as much as you can, and take out it's vulnerabilities.

 

The reason I like Blood Angels so much is that you can't shoot just jump pack off of them :P

 

-edit-

PS: (Thread plug) the Draigowing list in question is in it's proper place as well.

[Dropsik]

yeah you right i should delete the post while beeing ashamed of my math ... forgot about the ws5 in the math

 

yup Dc is quite good in oneand only charge

like I said :rolleyes: DC have some of it's own drawbacks. However there are some tricks you can play with them, some are covered for example by Snorri in his round up in tactics thread. Some of them you have to learn yourself. Also it is worth remembering, that it's not so easy to remove DC when they get their job done. You can try to use cover for your advantage, or assault multiple units (like assaulting 3 - 4 IG chimeras and tanks and one model is assaulting some guardsman that got to close for example). I was a bit, well, astonished? when feral one proclaimed DC as a garbage unit. It got my BA blood boiling and all :lol:

 

Well, the point I was getting across is that psyrifle dreads are easy to kill, but I guess I went a little overboard on it Also that GK may not be as slow as someone thinks. Those dreadknights move pretty fast with a PT, so watch out for them. Although last test it got taken down by a Templar Crusader Squad. The point is to bog a lot of these units down as much as you can, and take out it's vulnerabilities.

 

The reason I like Blood Angels so much is that you can't shoot just jump pack off of them

you see, I completely disagree with you in psydreads. I'm currently playing 3 normal ones and 1 venerable in my GK lists, and I'm thinking of throwing out some assassins with razor and some other upgrades to make place for second venerable. For me, psydreads are that unit that's broken in GK codex, and thats the unit that will carry the day even when dice gods hate you. And with shrouding you are looking at 3+ cover save on them... Paladins, Terminators and Purifiers are absolutely ok with me when I play BA. But those psydreads... hate 'em ;) they look bad at my predators and razors, and they just implode. Hate 'em.

 

cheers!

[Twin .44]

you see, I completely disagree with you in psydreads. I'm currently playing 3 normal ones and 1 venerable in my GK lists, and I'm thinking of throwing out some assassins with razor and some other upgrades to make place for second venerable. For me, psydreads are that unit that's broken in GK codex, and thats the unit that will carry the day even when dice gods hate you. And with shrouding you are looking at 3+ cover save on them... Paladins, Terminators and Purifiers are absolutely ok with me when I play BA. But those psydreads... hate 'em :) they look bad at my predators and razors, and they just implode. Hate 'em.

 

cheers!

 

Yeah, but that cover save isn't going to help you from a chainfist! ;) Or they aren't going to do much against, say, a Land Raider. It all does boil down to personal preference. Dreadknight vs. Dreadnought, Baal Pred vs. Vindicator, etc etc. My theory is that if an upgrade gun isn't fully effective against both armor and infantry, it isn't worth taking. That's why I like Psycannons and Assault Cannons. Plus, for some reason heavy armor is like tissue paper against me. I always seem to blow up vehicles rather easily. 4th edition POTMS I could still kill a Land Raider with an Assault Cannon. I'd rather have a rending weapon than one with higher strength.

[Dropsik]

For me rending is not important. I stopped rely on it when 5th edition came out and wound allocation showed up. Also rending against vehicles is much weaker. I prefer having S8 TL Autcannons, that will instant t4 obliterators and paladins like theres no tommorow.

But I guess it's a matter of taste, if you have luck with opening transports with assault cannons - can't argue with that:D

 

cheers!

[JamesI]

Remember everyone, this is the Blood Angel forum. To discuss best Grey Knight army building ideas take it to the proper forum.

 

Keep the thread about Blood Angels and how to defeat the Grey Knights when needed.

[Mykra]

For me rending is not important. I stopped rely on it when 5th edition came out and wound allocation showed up. Also rending against vehicles is much weaker. I prefer having S8 TL Autcannons, that will instant t4 obliterators and paladins like theres no tommorow.

But I guess it's a matter of taste, if you have luck with opening transports with assault cannons - can't argue with that:D

 

cheers!

 

 

I have two main BA lists I run at 1850, one a pure DOA army, another a Mephiston hybrid full of AV13 and some jumpers that has quite a few TL-assault cannons in it (Everyone theoryhammer's it into crap, but I just keep winning with it). The more I use assault cannons, the more I want to put more into my list somehow. I didn't think it would end up that way but when you have enough with weight of fire, they just shred people, tanks, every happy little tree that had the bad luck to be nearby. It's fantastic.

 

It might be a 'Well, no ;)' saying, but for me most of this conversation is moot because against GK's I'm going to shoot what I don't want to assault, Paladins, mass halberds, and assault what I don't need to shoot or to mop up. I've used Lemartes and DC before and they tear open pretty much anything that's not a Paladin squad, but I have very few DC left afterwards. Depending on the points it might be a good trade-off with the small numbers of GK's, but I usually don't like combats that end in a wash.

 

I've been running into the netlist Draigowing a lot lately. Draigo, Libby, 10 Paladin squad, 5 Strike squad, full sneaky Interceptors, Psyfledreads. Rough fight and what sucks is there really isn't any tactics to it. You use your speed, get the first punch at the paladins. If you get them (or a majority) you win, if not, probably going to get ugly.

 

The hybrid Draigowing with Coteaz is currently what I'm hating on. Makes me wish it was like Warmachine tourney so I could just pull out an alternate list. 'Ok, and my Vindicators...'

[Crynn]

[

 

Wooo! Lots of replies last night! And so many polite, well structured arguments! B/C is seeming pretty good right now about now gents.

 

Hey Crynn! I see you post on 3plusplus. I've been reading Kirbys stuff for about a year now. I was glad when you joined the team. Though I do feel like Kirby has gotten slack with the writing ever since he moved house... the :cusser.

 

I hear what your saying Crynn. As with any "Fast" army in gaming, the strategy is all about turning your speed into more tangible advantages. Gaining side shots on the enemy increases your firepower, so does negating their cover. Out-ranging their melee units and making sure your always in cover yourself bumps your defensive stats. These are good things. It can be hard to see this at a glance.

 

When you consider BA pay 15 points for Fast and GK pay 5 for fortitude you can sometimes feel cheated. Often I end up hedging myself into the belief that speed does nothing. "It doesn't make you shoot or take hits any better >>> Riflemen", "If your a combat unit sure, you reach them first, but they traded their fast to be better than you in CC so your speed means nothing in the end >>> Purifiers". But I suppose in retrospect that isn't strictly true. Your examples against fighting IG & Orks were fantastic Crynn. They hit the nail on the head.

 

I think that maybe my problems come from comparing Razorspam GK lists to Razorspam BA lists, in which case the BA just come up short. You get less firepower and less combat potential for speed which in this case, gains you almost nothing. SW are another example of an army who's Razorspam just seems better. For the exact same reasons. You pay a high points cost to reach combat faster (and get the charge) but this is basically useless against Grey Hunters.

 

I suppose I am just talking about the grass being greener. But that's not always the case. Those same GK/SW lists might pants BA but because they are so slow they could struggle against more shooting-heavy armies or real close combat monsters. Rock/Paper/Scissors. BA just happen to be the Paper to every other Marines Scissors. When the game is full of Marine armies... Ugh. Speed isn't usually a great advantage when fighting other Marines eh? unless you have the CC to back it up (which BA don't).

 

All of this isn't to say you can't :pinch: the GK over... not at all. AV13 and FNP do wonders to cripple GK shooting. And like you said, with your speed you can avoid combat with their more expensive Halberd units. The reason these lists work against GK is because they mostly work on durability or shooting though.

 

I would love for you to provide me with some examples of really good BA units and reasons why you like them. For example I look at the GK codex and think Purifiers, Riflemen, Paladins and DCA are all pretty crazy. This is probably just because they are *all* undercosted though. Where as I am firm believer that much of the cooler BA stuff is *overcosted*. Sanguinary Guard, Death Company with JPs, Vanguard Veterans, Baals and Vindicators (30 points for Scout/Fast) spring to mind.

 

I am a very Synergy based player so I I don't use a lot of the common units in multiples.

 

Units I use and love and have found good against GKs.

 

Mephiston (Yes he is still good against them, I have an article up on 3plusplus on how to use him against GKs)

Predators Lascannon sponsons

DC in a land raider - will maul anything without halberds because no every GK has one unless we are talking purifiers and all purifier armies aren't very good especially when you have FnP

TH/SS Termies

FnP MM attack bikes are a real pain for them

las plas razorbacks

Melta guns for pallies

Storm ravens using them as gun ships with cheap scoring units, rockets are very good against their dread and pallies as they ahve exceedingly large range. Once those dreads are gone you'll find psycannons arent actually very efficient at killing AV12

Dreads are over rated as without loading up a storm raven and dlying it at them (ignoring its awesome missiles) it is to slow and just dies or get immobilized.

Always have at least one psychic hood, I have Meph and lib dread but if you don't like them take a lib in as they should be in every BA army anyway.

 

FnP MM attack bikes with a bit of mech annoys the hell out of GKs as they ahve to waste str 8 dread fire power to kill them easily and you can block LOS to them easily.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[the jeske]

Yeah, but that cover save isn't going to help you from a chainfist!

if you just went through a GK draigo wing. killed the 10 pally draigo uber unit , countered the small pally unit and still have enough models and time to charge a dread with a chainfist armed model , then it doesnt matter if you kill the rifle man or not.

 

rifle man are awesome . cheap str 8x4 twin linked, no better rhino openers for this points in meq lists . And they cant be stuned due to fort . And if someone has enough points for a venerable they also buff the anti psychic buff of near units .

and as them dieing fast . no dread dies fast you need clear 3 MM/las shots to be close to sure your getting one effect off[cover , marines still can miss, etc] and while against normal dreads stun or shake is as good as dead , because next turn the rifle man does nothing a GK one works just fine .

 

 

 

Once those dreads are gone you'll find psycannons arent actually very efficient at killing AV12

which if it was true would mean you have to blow up 2-3 on turn the SR arrive [hard to pull off] and as the dont work good against av12 . psycannons are rending a draigo wing is going to have 4 in the main unit 2 in the 5 man . all on terminators so the range doesnt drop for moving . its 6x4 str 7 shots offten mastercrafted for wound allocation [and to hit more] they deal with av 12 just fine , they deal with av13-14 to an extant where a match up against a LR rush or a BA pred wall isnt a auto lose match up.

[spec.ops]

Issue at hand...or heart.

 

We, or at least I, want to beat drago while still being true to BA - DoA + Support.

 

2x Lib: JP w/ Melta Combi + 4x Priest: JP w/ Combi Melta + 6x RAS: 2x Melta + PF + ??? = That is the question.

 

What support will kick drago butt, while still flexible enough to kick SW and other poser BA lists that aren't mine? LOL

 

S8+ is the only way to thrash a drago list so lets start there.

 

S8+ Compilation:

-3x3 Attack Bike: MM = 450

-3x1 Pred: TL-LC w/ Side-LC = 540

-3x5 Dev: ML or LC = 390 or 570

 

I find the best option in general are Attack Bikes.

 

Three main configurations come to mind.

 

1.) Standard: 3x3 Attack Bike: MM supporting basic 6x10 RAS w/ 4x Priest: JP + Combi Melta & 2x Lib: JP + Combi Melta

 

2.) Mobile Command Squads (MCS): 3x3 Standard + 3x Priest & 2x Lib: Bike + basic 6x10 RAS w/ added IP

 

3.) Bling: 2x3 Attack Bike: MM supporting basic 6x10 RAS w/ added IP + 4x Priest: JP + IP + PW & 2x Lib: JP + IP

 

Which is best to combat drago plus SW's and BA posers? IDK LOL

 

But, this is my take on it - cheers.

[Morollan]

As the DC argument is getting way too theoretical, so I did little comparison with 2 similar units (same point value, almost same bonuses). Moreover both would use the same transport in my build (SR)

 

Unit A:

Chappy (PW-one he comes with)+ 8DC (3PF,2PW) = 12PW attacks, 9PF, 12 normal attacks - 3+/4+ FNP one model with 4++ 365p TOTAL

 

Unit B:

Libby (FW rage, w.ever second power) + Sang Priest (bare)+ 3TH/SS - 2LC Termies = 8PW (WS4) 4FW(WS5), 9TH attacks, 4 normal (WS5) attacks -

2+ ~ 3+ / 4+ FNP and 3x3++ 2x5++ 365p TOTAL

 

So as I did little math hammer, after all re rolls (assuming lib power went off) the results are:

 

Edited

its 21 attacks scored by DC as i made mistake in callculations and did not consider WS5 ... however i cannot edit this trough my ipad :P. it is increased by 2pw ans 4 normal ones.

 

Unit A: 17wounds scored out of which are 5PF,6PW,6normal

Unit B: 13 wounds scored out of which are 5TH,6PW,2normal

 

Only 4 normal wound difference in favour of DC, while still raging around the battlefield. On the other hand far more flexible unit (2+/3++ - 5++ and the possible use of 2nd power (SoS)) will still deal almost the same amount of damage, however being able to stand the punishment that might come after (not even mentioning the TH vs. PF argument).

 

I recalculated this using a different DC unit of chaplain, 1 fist and 11 normal DC (365 points) and taking into account the WS5, rerolls etc. Both units are calculated on the charge and vs MEQ opponents.

 

DC inflict 11.58 unsaved wounds on I5, basically eliminating most units before they strike back. They then add a further 1.77 unsaved wounds on I4 and 2.58 on I1 for a total of 15.93 unsaved wounds

 

The terminators inflict 7.69 unsaved wounds on I5 and a further 6.56 on I1 for a total of 14.25

 

So, not a huge difference in total damage but DC do most of theirs up front and none of the power weapons can be allocated away as they are on different initiative steps. It also doesn't take into account the shooting damge from DC prior to assault (another 1.44 unsaved wounds) or the fact that the Lib's rage could be hooded.

 

If I get a chance later I'll work out what happens when not on the charge.

[The Holy Heretic]

I rarely run dreads to begin with. They have a glass jaw and a set of good rolls from a Krak missile can take them out in a snap, but yeah, a lot of people seem to take psyrifle dreads like it's going out of style from what I've noticed. I can fit two in for the price of my Dreadknight, but I don't like giving up any more killpoints than I have to.

 

Exactly.

 

People constantly whine about the 'psyfleman', but compare him to BA devastator squad (with missiles, which is the most popular and comparatively priced), and you'll see that they're quite on par with each other.

 

The psyfleman has mobility, invulnerability to small arms fire, 4 anti-armour shots but nothing against infantry, and can be destroyed by a single shot.

 

The devastators are 'stationary', can make better use of cover, are flexible vs. light infantry, MEQ and armour and a single shot - unless its a big nasty-scary template - will never take them out.

[breng77]

You missed the fact that Psyfleman are twin linked and so hit almost 90% of the time vs 66% for those devastators. And while a single shot can kill one it rarely does (they are usually in cover, and AV 12 is not easy to penetrate). They are also much harder to deal with in close combat (they don't kill much but it is very hard to hurt dreads in CC unless you have a chain fist or equivalent, and even then it can tar pit you for a while) Mobility is also a huge issue (bigger than you give it credit for.) IN 1/3 games devastator squads give up at least 1 turn of shooting (in Dawn of war they need to walk on the board, which means no shooting that turn, and unless they can get to a good position sometimes the next turn as well.), it is much easier for dreads to reposition to get side armor shots, be useful while moving to contest objectives. As is vulnerability to small arms fire, if I have a whole bunch of other tanks on the board every anti-tank shot at the dreads, means my other vehicles are safer, and you waste small arms fire, where as devs can be targeted with that fire so it does not go to waste.

 

Lastly you need to look in the context of the army. GKs don't need help on the anti-infantry end of things, as their units come with storm bolters and buy psycannons. THe codex also lacks long range fire power hence the high use of the dread.

 

Lastly how many Dev squads can you field in a BA army? I see plenty of GK builds taking 4+ TL AC dreads.

[Dropsik]

In my opinion devastators are also clearly inferior. Long Fangs maybe, but normal devastators unfortunately not. Devastators are cool in DoA armies, or one build around infrantry, not vehicles. but even so, they do not have such anti tank and, in a way, anti infrantry abilities as psydread. Fortunately BA have also Predator tanks which make a close call with psydreads in terms of volume of fire and speed. We can more reliably hurt AV 13 and 14 with them, while still being able to very fast repositioning. So propably they are even as a heavy support choice, but I just love TL rule, so I put psydread as a TOP 1 of heavy support in 40k :D

 

cheers!

[knife&fork]

Devastators are cool in DoA armies

 

I don't see why you'd want to take a unit that cannot deploy in same way as the rest of your force, lack mobility and are a liability in DoW. It's not that they are horrible, but they do better in hybrid or mech lists.

[Dropsik]

I don't see why you'd want to take a unit that cannot deploy in same way as the rest of your force, lack mobility and are a liability in DoW. It's not that they are horrible, but they do better in hybrid or mech lists.

they don't do good in mech. in mech army you want moar mech, so predators are your weapon of choice.

To tell you the truth, I don't play DoA, and even never did, so my experience here is limited. However, I imagine it's the same as mech army, you want devastators because they are another 15 bodies to deal with, with another 40 - 50 waiting in orbit to deep strike. But like I said, I'm not an expert on DoA armies.

 

In hybrid armies however I think they can be a nice addition. Recently I'm thinking that maybe my heavy support should look like 2 predators and big unit of devastators with 4 missile launchers. I would be able to combat squad them so that they could take 2 targets a turn. 2 predators would provide a mobile firepower with static devastator firebase. I imagine they should also do good against GK's, as they still provide BA with what is needed - long range s8 firepower.

 

cheers!

[breng77]

They work well in DOA armies that for the most part don't use DOA, so perhaps just call them jumper lists. Deepstriking your whole army is not usually the best tactic due to its random nature, and the ease of countering an entire DS army.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I've just spent the last 40 minutes reading through every word in this thread - and being paid for it :D - and I have come to a conclusion, particularly influenced by the talk about Death Company:

 

Mentality is very much a component about how a unit will work, whether alone or as part of a list.

 

If you don't believe Death Company will be useful, or anything other than a point sink, then they never will be - barring the certainty that because of chance and luck you will eventually have a decent result.

 

 

A lot of people have commented about various things but unless you give ideas and units a decent run, along with perhaps the new learning curve, then all the effort at convincing is moot.

 

Really though, if tournament play is your thing and you want to win then playing the Grey Knights does make sense if you think that Codex is better - but that solely depends on whether winning is just one thing, or the only thing.

[JamesI]

They work well in DOA armies that for the most part don't use DOA, so perhaps just call them jumper lists. Deepstriking your whole army is not usually the best tactic due to its random nature, and the ease of countering an entire DS army.

This fits my attitude. Devs work in Jumper lists, as do attack bikes.

 

But if you want to deep strike, then not as much.

[knife&fork]

They work well in DOA armies that for the most part don't use DOA, so perhaps just call them jumper lists. Deepstriking your whole army is not usually the best tactic due to its random nature, and the ease of countering an entire DS army.

This fits my attitude. Devs work in Jumper lists, as do attack bikes.

 

But if you want to deep strike, then not as much.

 

If you want to run jumpers you want the option to DS. Having a unit not capable of that limits your flexibility.

 

I don't see how it's easy to counter an all DS army. While there's certainly an element of randomness when it works it works very well. Spread out and you'll get picked apart, castle up and multicharges will turn your parkinglot into a junkyard.

 

I think the disdain for deep strike armies has a lot to do with the initial (steep) learning curve and people playing with less than the 25% recommend terrain coverage (very common at tourney tables).

[breng77]

I don't see how it's easy to counter an all DS army. While there's certainly an element of randomness when it works it works very well. Spread out and you'll get picked apart, castle up and multicharges will turn your parkinglot into a junkyard.

 

Just off the top of my head.

 

- Bubble wrap important units to limit damage done by the initial drop (if you are dropping in melta guns, and cannot get within 12" you don't really do much)

 

- Go second, and possibly reserve your whole army as well (especially if your army has reserve manipulation.) then you don't lose as much shooting, and if you reserve you can respond to where the enemy comes in.

 

-If playing a fast army, spread out to limit safe deepstrike locations (or if you are playing horde style blanket the table. Then if you are fast just move away as the units come in.

 

-Grey Knights with warp quake are an obvious one, guard with officer of the fleet to slow down your reserves.

 

- Have fast assault elements that can hit the deepstrikers as the drop.

 

Can it work sure, is it reliable to have deepstriking your whole army as your main plan NO.

 

Devastators don't remove the option to deepstrike, just the option to deepstrike with everything, and IMO jumper lists I have seen work better when you don't deepstrike everything, they are just too easy to deal with when everything deepstrikes. Furthermore without some kind of ranged elements the struggle against the better assault armies in the game because you don't have the option to damage your opponent from beyond 12"