Self-guilt

[Dosjetka]

Hello all,

 

I have a question that just popped into my head: Is the theme of self-guilt (ie. I killed an innocent bystander, guilt gnaws at me and I seek repentance) cliché/over-done in DIY Chapters? I haven't been here long enough or read enough IA's to know the answer, so that's why I've come here to get some answers :)

 

Cheers,

 

Ludovic

[voi shet magir]

I don't know that self-guilt is a real term or any different from regular guilt, but I feel bad about making horrible, content-free posts, so I go around doing the violence to other vacuous posts that I can't do to myself. Maybe there is a chapter that is so outraged by carcharodon- or white panthers- or marines malevolent-type behavior that they punish it by perpetrating genocide on another chapter's homeworld.

 

Good idea, Ludovic. Maybe someone will publish your pensees after all.

[Shinzaren]

I don't think it's over done. Mainly based on the fact that Marine's aren't really hardwired that way. They are killing machines, and so the vast majority have innate sense that collateral damage is ok. As long as the enemy dies, everything else is secondary. I think it is an interesting idea, mainly based on the fact that in the GrimDark universe there is so much death and so much hatred that innocent bystanders are extremely rare. Still, I look forward to seeing how this turns out B)

[Destecado]

I don't feel that it has been overdone, but what exactly do you have in mind? As has been said, most "innocent by standers" would be considered acceptable losses if it means taking out the enemy. I'm not sure if a marine would experience guilt, but they do experience hatered. The Space Wolves and Logan Grimnar especially hate the Inqusition for their treatment of the civilian population of Armageddon after the First War of Armageddon. These were trusted allies who had fought beside the Space Marines to drive back the forces of chaos. Because they were now aware of the ruinous powers, the Inquisition deemed them corrupted. Those not killed outright were sterilized and sent to labor camps, forced to rebuild the infrastructure of the planet for new colonists brought in to repopulate the planet.

 

Guilt and self loathing seem to more of a presonal prespective. I'm not sure if the feeling would be shared by everone in a chapter or even a company. Heck, look at the Horus Heresy. Not even all of the marines or the traitor legions went to the side of chaos. Guilt at some levels might factor into the creation of renegade companies. These are not necessarily marines that have fallen to chaos. They may have just as likely become disillusioned with the rightness of their cause or of the Imperium in general.

 

One of my favorite movies is Tears of the Sun, which in part deals with what you are asking. To quote Bruce Willis' character from the movie, " I broke my own rule. I started to give a f_ck... and I brought you guys along with me."

[Dosjetka]

voi shet magir: Hold that tongue of yours if you have nothing but insults to say.

 

Shinz: Well, maybe the term of innocent bystanders wasn't the right one, but collateral damage seems to fit the bill. I'll give it some thought and try and come up with a more "solid" write-up.

 

Destecado: Hmm... I hadn't thought of that. Makes the idea less believable if you look at it that way. Also, I wanted to see if it could be done with Loyalists, but seems like making the Astartes renegades is a better idea. Hmm...

 

Ludovic

[czertowicz]

I think it's a good tool if you can pull it off, but it's easy to slip into simplistic or cheesy reasoning. The trouble with space marines is they don't really care too much about treading on toes, you have to find a believable reason for the guilt. Once you've got it, then some careful writing can make it into a useful tool.

 

So killing an innocent in the line of duty. Nah, had a job to do, got in my way. Child, ok, a bit more unpleasant, but at least they didn't live a life of suffering.

 

Stepping it up, killing a few hundred, even a few thousand in the line of duty to save others or a colony. Killing tens of thousands to save a planet even, its a numbers game. As long as the outcome is more alive than dead your average Astartes isn't going to give a monkeys. Exterminatus? Well, duty calls.

 

I had a few ideas at work of things that may, emphasis on the 'may' give a Marine sleepless nights.

 

The key as I see it is finding a moral choice that they would genuinely have to think about. How about an exterminatus to save the chapter? Covering up a mistake or choas taint they think they've headed off before the inquisition get wind of it. Now you can see a commander having to choose his brothers over the wishes of the Emperor's agents or the lives of humans.

 

I think that's your first step anyway, believable reasoning. THEse are things that have just popped into my head but wouldn't neccesarily hold up to scrutiny. Scrutiny is what the B&C is best at!

[Myxx]

in the novel Hammer of Demons, the GK doesn't appear to feel terribly guilty about causing the deaths of hundreds of "innocents" while trying to escape a demon-world. But I guess the other side of that coin would be Uriel Ventris in the defense of Tarsis Ultra. While he doesn't feel guilt, he does feel gratitude towards the lowly human guardsmen who saved his life. So I guess what I'm getting at is that SMs aren't all just unfeeling machines, its just that they don't let those feelings affect there mission.

[voi shet magir]

If the enemy is an ass and a fool and a prating coxcomb, is it meet, thinkyou that we should also, look you, be an ass and a fool and a prating coxcomb, in your own conscience now?

 

Nobody talks like that and not only does it seem lame, but it doesn't really count as adequate communication, so you should stop doing it. Also, if you were a space marine, and you had said yes to Captain Fluellen, but instead of making noise in camp, he had asked you about murdering people, then I probably made the most cogent and and relevant point to the OP.

 

If you interpret that quote in the worst possible and most ad hominem way, and then work your way up to constructive and good, you might find four or five different possible meanings, all of which I endorse.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

A marine would not feel guilt about killing someone, that's kind of their job description.

 

What they would feel guilty about would be failure, which is why they tend to either succeed or die trying.

[NightrawenII]

Hmmmm.... Something a lá Imperial Fists, Dark Angels or 'Nevermore'?

 

As far as I can tell... No. The current batch of DIYers is either infected with Wardismus or obsessed with 'Nice' Marines and such ideas are, for the most part, alien to them.

 

 

---

If the enemy is an ass and a fool and a prating coxcomb, is it meet, thinkyou that we should also, look you, be an ass and a fool and a prating coxcomb, in your own conscience now?

 

Nobody talks like that and not only does it seem lame, but it doesn't really count as adequate communication, so you should stop doing it. Also, if you were a space marine, and you had said yes to Captain Fluellen, but instead of making noise in camp, he had asked you about murdering people, then I probably made the most cogent and and relevant point to the OP.

 

If you interpret that quote in the worst possible and most ad hominem way, and then work your way up to constructive and good, you might find four or five different possible meanings, all of which I endorse.

You see, I have been thinking this for some time, but... You have strange penchant for using exotic words, complex phrases and abstract terms, but your skill of comunication is zero, because your manner of speech is almost unintelligible. If you want people to pay attention to what you say, you have to use common sense and comprehensible language.

Otherwise you will stay a misunderstood rhetorician.

 

 

Just my two cents, NightrawenII.

[Lord_Caerolion]

As others have said, it might be better, and far more likely, that a Marine feels guilt not over accidentally killing a civilian, but failing to save them. I can imagine many of the more human-friendly Chapters feeling guilt-ridden if they didn't manage to save a planet/city/what-have-you, if they feel they could have done more.

[Dosjetka]

OK, so the idea goes into my mind's rubbish bin and I will start again with something different :P

 

Cheers for your input!

 

Ludovic

[Heru]

or obsessed with 'Nice' Marines

My Falcon Knights were nice marines,

They were goody goody white knights who had to save everyone, and maintained extremely human relations with their recruiting population (returning every twenty two years [22nd Founding] for worldwide celebrations with family) & then they get a massive dose of reality check, with a bitch-slap of grimdark.

 

Their good deeds become pyrrhic victories* >

Homeworld invaded by the Extinction Agenda >

Majority of the population turned against them (psychic puppetry) >

Their human connection used to curse them with the Extinction Curse >

They go berserk and rip into everyone who wasn't under enemy control and each other >

Chapter saved by its Librarians (Libby's being the weakest members of a Chapter is cliche) >

Becomes convinced their susceptibility was "the fault of regular humans" >

Goes black knight, and doesn't give two tosses about human casualties anymore. Their homeworld goes from 40k modern to medieval in less than a hundred years, and the people live in fear of the black giants who steal their children.

 

* = Examples:

1. Chapter fights extremely hard and loses many marines to give civilian transports enough time to escape a Tyranid invasion, only for the transports to arrive at their destination filled with scenes of bloodsoaked carnage (Genestealers, Lictors snuck on board).

 

2. Chapter liberates a world from a traitor bloody rigme, only to have the liberated turn on them afterwards.

 

Etc