What would a new codex really mean for Deathwing,

[Corrupted]

So whether or not the rumors are true of a new DA Dex on the horizon, it got me thinking of what it would mean for my army. After the initial excitement subsided I started looking at my Deathwing Army and thinking, "Your going to get even smaller, aren't you?"

 

Now this is pure speculation but bare with me for a moment. What are the likely pros and cons to a new Codex in regards to Deathwing?

 

HQ's, while our terminator armored commanders will probably get better, I doubt that the Master of the Deathwing will stay as cheap as he is. Which will by itself require a unit to be dropped to free up the points.

 

Elites, Venerable Dreadnoughts, I field one or two in every list I take. Love'um or hate'um their Deathwing through and through and we currently get them much cheaper then everyone else. My favorite configuration is Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer and Extra Armor for 165 points, 190-200 points in any other codex.

 

Troops, hopefully there will be a drop in the base point cost of DWT's to what every one else pays for termies, but cyclones are definitely going to go up 10 points. Also considering what BA and SWs pay for THSS I doubt that is going to be a free option in the future. On the positive side I'm hoping for squads up to 10 with a HW per 5, but that doesn't make a squad any cheaper.

 

Fast Attack, now a pure Deathwing force technically doesn't field and Fast, but I love to bring some typhoons in to support my boys. Now I know we get typhoons at a steal right now and I'm going to assume that fast attack in any future codex will be much better then the current rendition, but it is still something to think about.

 

Heavy Support, Land Raiders, standard pattern will probably remain the same with a few new options. Crusaders will most likely have to pay 10 points for a MM.

 

So what I'm thinking about for the future of my army:

My HQ is going to get 20-70 points more expensive, but has to be better then he is now.

My Dreads are going to get 25-35 points more expensive, but again will get much better.

My Termies... I normally field 20 in a 1500-1850 list, my favorite load out is; 1 claws, 4 THSS + 1 cyclone. I'm thinking their will be a net point increase of 15. However given the choice I'd love to field termies in squads of 6 instead of 5.

My Raiders, I normally bring a crusader to the field and most likely I will be spending an extra 10 points for it.

 

Once again this may just be me being negative, but I'm going to throw up my standard 1850 list,

 

Belial w/ Claws - 130

 

Venerable Dreadnought w/ Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer, & Extra Armor - 165

Venerable Dreadnought w/ Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer, & Extra Armor - 165

 

DWT w/ Assault Cannon, Company Standard, & 4x Thunder Hammer + Storm Shields - 270

DWT w/ Cyclone Missile Launcher, 1 Pair of Lightning Claws, & 4x Thunder Hammer + Storm Shields - 235

DWT w/ Cyclone Missile Launcher, 1 Pair of Lightning Claws, & 4x Thunder Hammer + Storm Shields - 235

DWT w/ Cyclone Missile Launcher, 1 Pair of Lightning Claws, & 4x Thunder Hammer + Storm Shields - 235

 

Typhoon w/ MM - 75

Typhoon w/ MM - 75

 

Crusader w/ Extra Armor - 265

 

I'm expecting this list to go up about 200 points with the release of any new Dark Angels Codex. In game terms:

Pros- Better HQ, Better Dreads, hopefully six man termies squads, but that require me dropping more units.

Cons- To keep this list 1850 I will probably have to drop both speeders or one Dread.

 

All in all, I'm not sure if the Pros will out weigh the Cons.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Expect the Typhoons to cost more also.

 

Bur as it is, it's too soon to "guess" points costs or what changes will it bring...

[HsojVvad]

I have no idea what will happen or be in the new DA codex. All I can say is look at the GK, SW and BA codicies and see what they got. Have points increased or dercreased? I haven't bothered with them since I only do DA, so not sure how they really went. Maybe other memebers on the forums know of the other codicies and will be able to "guess" better.

[Corrupted]

All my 'guessing' comes from the other codexes, mostly BA and SW. I think DA as an overall army is going to get much better. I'm worried that Deathwing, as an already extremely low model count army, wont be able to deal with any point increases.

[Interrogator Stobz]

...I'm worried that Deathwing, as an already extremely low model count army, wont be able to deal with any point increases.

This^^

[march10k]

I expect a lot of things to be brought in line with C:UM, such as tactical squads, and perhaps scouts. It always did seem odd to me that our scouts, for no fluffy reason whatsoever, were better than everybody else's...not that I mind. I love me some 80 point outflanking pistol and chainsword scouts. That's a threat of 16 S4 WS4 attacks comming out of nowhere. Insanely good for the points...and I see it going bye-bye, even though nobody else seems to take advantage of it. Now, I'd only take that option in a DW list, since the fundamental problem with elite scouts is opportunity cost...but when you get your primary elites unit as troops, they're really only competing with dreddies...and then the calculus is simple...if you have ~150 points, you take the vennie, if ~130, the basic, and if less, the scouts! And even if you have the points, you might take the scouts anyway if you already have two dreddies. What I'd love to see instead is scout sergeants being able to buy a telehomer, especially one that ANY reserve infantry unit can use to deepstrike, not just termies. Imagine infiltrating scouts, then warping in multimelta devvies at close range. Of course, that wouldn't work because you'd have to get lucky enough that the dev squad pops out of reserve on turn two, and still couldn't shoot heavy weapons till turn three...but I love the concept of scouts getting a telehomer, even if only DW can use it.

 

Other than that, yeah, I expect a points hike for a lot of deathwing stuff. I expect changes to ravenwing unit sizes, unit types, and options, really, that's where GW has the most room to monkey with stuff. Of course I expect access to the mortis dreddy! Don't much care for the other junk, like thunderfire cannons and such...but I'd give my eyeteeth for a pair of riflemen to support my Deathwing!

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I expect the DW to be more expensive, but we probably will get some toys. I agree that the army will have lower models, probably the attempt to make us spend more money on building a new GW army. RW will probably suffer as well.

 

However, i expect DW to be better, and I am seriously hoping for a Jetbike unit for Sammy. That would make up for a more expensive RW for me. And give Sammy IC.

[riddles]

I still don't see a DA codex on the horizon.

 

@March: get your local group to accept Forgeworld stuff with the 40k stuff. Mortis Dreads for 125 points. job done.

[shabbadoo]

I still don't see a DA codex on the horizon.

We'll find out soon enough apparently, and more concretely in about 10 weeks or so.

 

What happens with Deathwing, plus Ravenwing(and therefore Duo-wing), will very much depend on what rules/options are dog-piled onto them, as well as changes in the way the core rules work that may result in any increased/decreased effectiveness. Overall I am hopeful that DW won't go up in points cost, but that their special rules will work a tiny bit better. I have little doubt that Belial will actually become a *special* Special Character, meaning he is going to shoot up by about the cost of a single Deathwing Terminator. And who knows what, if any, new and more expensive options/toys for Deathwing they might add? If the army shrinks, yet becomes more efficient/effective, then the trade-off won't be too bad. But, considering that GW is in the business to sell models, the Deathwing as an army may stay about the same; I am doubtful of it becoming all that much bigger(excepting that they get a cheap base power weapon/stormbolter configuration). However, Ravenwing armies are going to slightly increase in size, as Ravenwing Bikes will go down by at lest 5 points, and probably closer to 10.

 

So, there is probably not all too much to worry about.

[Isiah]

Too early to say I say :).

 

But for fun, here goes:

• The dex could herald the 10-man termy squad with combat squads and two heavy weapons.
  
• The introduction of a generic Master in termy armour not allowing DW as troops, but, allowing DW Elite slot units to score.
  
• Belial to get both costlier and killier.
  
• Drop pods as dedicated transport for DW squads.
  
• Assault on same turn as deep striking.
  
• Teleport homers for DW and Scout sarges.
  
• Combi-weapons for DW sarges.
  
• Or, it might knock standalone DW on the head entirely.
  

 

In all, looking at 'extras' being tthrown at other dexes particularly the GK I can only see the DW getting more formidible.

 

Cheers

I

[riddles]

2 special weapons per squad? veteran skills options? oh wait, then we'd be templars...

 

altering the DW loadout to be similar to wolf guard and GK terminators is more likely. Start with the cheap pf/sb or pw/sb and upgrade weapons individually. that'd be awesome for me because THSS will be the most expensive option and i'm only running 1 or 2 per squad.

 

although seeing belial with a relic blade and storm shield might not go amiss :)

 

You have to look, though, at what actually makes C;DA different to C;SM. It's the deathwing and the ravenwing really. now, the all biker army is arguably done better by C;SM, though ravenwing have their advantages (scout over outflank/nothing, single attack bike combat squads. regular marines have better combat potential in their biker armies). So really it's the deathwing that are most divergent to other chapters with their mixed weaponry. So we're either going to see a complete overhaul of the book, giving us some ancient technology (most likely plasma based, or a jetbike unit), or different options for tactical squads (stubborn, relentless, more access to plasma).

 

OR (and this is my fear), we'll get rolled into the regular SM book as the new poster boys, meaning every man and his dog will be running ultramarine first company terminators.

 

Too early to say I say :).

 

But for fun, here goes:

• The dex could herald the 10-man termy squad with combat squads and two heavy weapons.
  
• The introduction of a generic Master in termy armour not allowing DW as troops, but, allowing DW Elite slot units to score.
  
• Belial to get both costlier and killier.
  
• Drop pods as dedicated transport for DW squads.
  
• Assault on same turn as deep striking.
  
• Teleport homers for DW and Scout sarges.
  
• Combi-weapons for DW sarges.
  
• Or, it might knock standalone DW on the head entirely.
  

• I wouldn't say no to this. we become the ultimate killpoint army
  
• potentially, but I doubt it. only GK grand master and pedro can do this. i think we'll just get FOC altering stuff again
  
• Probably. Would make me sad. I like my cheap captain.
  
• Never happen. DW have always teleported. Now, land raiders as ded transports, I can get behind.
  
• Would love it. Would fit the elite terminator vibe too.
  
• has potential, but combined with charge off the deep strike would be heinous
  
• only chaos terminators have combi weapon options. you're not a fallen are you?
  
• Like i said, if we're rolled into the regular marine book, I can see this happening. I hope not. It is rare to have an entire army invalidated, but it has happened. DW are popular enough that it shouldn't.
  

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

I just hope we'll keep our combined "tactical"/assault weapons loadout. :/

[Hellios]

I hope that DW and RW are not accessed by SCs. I just want it so if you take a HQ on a bike you can take RW and in you take terminator armour on a character you can play a DW army without being forced to take a SC. And if I have to take a SC they better damn well be worth the points...

[riddles]

Which was how it was in the previous dex. I can't see it happening though. Looking at the proliferation of special characters in all the 5th edition dexs, I think Belial and Sammael are here to stay. Which is only right and proper, they are the current masters of the deathwing and ravenwing respectively. And it leans toward GWs want to have us play narrative games.

 

the ravenwing could really use a revamp to make them distinct from a codex chapter bike army. jetbikes, land speeder tempests, other heavy options on the attack bike (bike mounted plasma cannons ftw!). A heavy land speeder/flier.

 

In fact, given the rumours for Tau - your HQ choice determines your troops (kroot, tau or demiurg) I can see for the DA dex (if it happens) the following:

HQ:

Master

Librarian

Azrael

Asmodai

Ezekiel

Belial

Sammael

 

Troops:

Tactical squads - stubborn, more access to plasma or mastercrafted gear, stubborn

Deathwing Terminators - belial only

Ravenwing Squads - sammael only

scouts

 

Elites:

Mortis dreads - all

venerable dreads - belial only, or a limit on how many you can take without belial

deathwing - for belial, the command squad will be an elites choice or a retinue. for everyone else, they will have limited deathwing options

jetbike assault unit - sammael only, or his command squad

 

Fast

ravenwing support squads - sammael can take multiple typhoons in a squad. everyone else gets 1

land raider variant for the deathwing only (ares pattern is a dark angels variant)

assault squads

ravenwing bikes - for everyone else

 

heavy

land raiders - everyone else

vindicators

some kind of gunship for the ravenwing (land speeder tempest?)

 

so you essentially have 3 distinct, and viable armies in the book.

[Tengo]

I just want Asmodai, Saphon and Brother Bethor back, oh and the Mortis Dread ofc :D

[Brother Immolator]

I just want Asmodai, Saphon and Brother Bethor back, oh and the Mortis Dread ofc <_<

 

Seconded and raise Naaman or just include him.

 

Honestly i really hope i am wrong and we dont get the codex soon though.

[TMK0377]

The new codex may allow us to take Terminators as troops. The Grey Knights get terminators as basic troops with no SC or HQ tax. I would be okay with that, especially since Belial is pretty terrible other than to catch bullets. It would be cool to have an Interrogator Chaplain leading a terminator force. Look on the bright side. Maybe we will have librarians that are worth taking again. GW has basically forced us to play DW or RW with the current codex, so this may be their idea of what a Dark Angels army should be. They may end up lowering the points on terminator and bike squads to encourage you to play those armies. This is all unless Jervis is writing the codex again. Then we are truly frakked.

[riddles]

Jervis "competitive gaming is bad and you shouldn't do it" Johnson? Nah, he'd never gimp Dark Angels...

 

I still think we could get rolled into the SM dex, with special character unlocking deathwing and ravenwing.

[BigGumbo]

Ld 10 Termy librarian, with a bit more flexibility on psychic powers, would be nice.

[march10k]

excepting that they get a cheap base power weapon/stormbolter configuration

 

I pee in my pants at the thought of that! I'd take power weapon/stormbolter termies at the same price as the fisters, but would gladly take them at a discout. Say 35 points appiece?

 

[*]Assault on same turn as deep striking.

 

In combination with DWA and RW telehomers? First turn charge by assault terminators? Overpowered...so, if we get this, it has to be at the expense of either the DWA rule (unlikely, it's a nice corrolary to DOA) or telehomers.

[Luke S]

Stormraven(s) please.

 

The *new* DW Assault.

[Brother Immolator]

Stormraven(s) please.

 

The *new* DW Assault.

 

You made me puke now...

[march10k]

only chaos terminators have combi weapon options. you're not a fallen are you?

 

...and terminator chaplains (maybe librarians, too, but in spite of having painted up the model, I never field one because of LD9, so I wouldn't know...), so sergeants isn't much of a leap. Actually, a combi-flamer option for the sergeant would get me off the heavy flamer bandwagon, since it would effectively let my have my cake and eat it, too.

 

 

And stubborn tactical squads? Really? For free? I think intractable is more appropriate, with stubborn unlocked via an upgraded sergeant...ah, I loved 3rd edition DA tac squads!

 

Stormraven(s) please.

 

The *new* DW Assault.

 

You made me puke now...

QFT +1!!!

 

I'd rather have a decent counter to the cheese than an expansion of it... Maybe DA rifleman dreads get a stand and shoot reaction if a stormraven comes within range (48") of them on the turn in which they arrive from reserves...with the special rule for anti-aircraft guns like hydras have? It wouldn't be much of a leap from the way an auspex works (are those still around?) What? Overpowered? Only if you take two riflemen (to blanket the board) AND the enemy puts a stormraven or two in reserve...that's way too situational to be overpowered.

 

On the subject of the stormraven itself...15 termies stepping off the assault ramp of a thunderhawk is to sex as five terminators stepping off of a MEQ valkyrie is to masturbation...JMHO, YMMV

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

If 6th is anything like the rumors, chances are we will all have StormRavens. If we can take them with Bikes or Termies coming out the front....

 

Now, that would be fun ;)

[MadDoc]

If 6th is anything like the rumors, chances are we will all have StormRavens. If we can take them with Bikes or Termies coming out the front....

Sorry, but if GW are smart we won't. We'll have a flier of some sort, but not the Stormraven.

 

GW, and specifically the DS boffins, have stated a number of times when asked when will 'Insert Chapter here' be getting access to the Stormraven, that nobody beyond BA and GK will be getting access to the Stormraven (via a Codex or any other official means).

 

I'd far prefer something new and unique (or simply shared with C:SM/C:SW/C:BT) than GW just up and ignoring the Stormraven's fluff and giving them to DA/SW/BT too, maybe thats just me though.