playedsincedaemonhunters Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 As i was looking threw my grey knight codex i was browsing over crowe and his failtastic rules... ( besided pure troops) i looked at his rending CC rules and then i looked to see his Cleansing flame rules. POOF an idea formed, i read it over several times and it just seems too good to be true, but does seem possible. "Master swordsman; Crowes skill with a blade is legendary and he can pick out a weak spot in even the most formidable armour. his CC attacks have the rending special rule and rend on a 4+" now for the Cleansing flame entry on the second paragraph is waht im wondering about "Once the effects of cleansing flame have been resolved( and any casualties removed), blows are struck as normal. Unsaved wounds caused by cleansing flame are counted as having been caused in CC for all purposes" maybe im completely wrong and just look dumb, but to me it seems that Crowe's cc attacks which, wounds from the flame are, for all purposes rend. am i wrong? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 This hinges on weather the wounds that Cleansing Flame causes are close combat attacks or not. Im inclined to believe not but I havent read the book. Anyone else can confirm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Cleansing Flames is a CC attack that occurs at the start of CC, but before physical attack (ie, always occurs before initiative yet is not a physical attack). However, Crowe's rending ability is specific to his physical attacks (swordsmanship) rather than just any wounds inflicted (such as via Cleansing Flames). As Cleanse occurs before physical blows are struck, and Crowe's rend is related this his physical attacks, we can assume correctly that his Cleansing Flames do not rend. SJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 according to the GK FAQ cleansing flame is a close combat attack, so RAW I suppose you could make that argument, but I'm pretty sure RAI is going to be no and I am not sure most TOs would go with it. IF it does work that way he is certainly much better as every wound caused by his cleansing flame would ignore armor, which means you would just run him into squads, go into defensive stance and cleanse away. I mean statisically you would kill half of every squad you run into so long as they don't have an invul save. I mean cleansing flame makes him good in CC against non MEQ enemies, but if cleansing flame were to rend for him he would be good in CC against pretty much any squad (not really single models.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 As Cleanse occurs before physical blows are struck, and Crowe's rend is related this his physical attacks, we can assume correctly that his Cleansing Flames do not rend. +1. Look at the key phrases in the rules: "His CC attacks have the rending special rule and rend on a 4+..." "Unsaved wounds caused by cleansing flame are counted as having been caused in CC for all purposes..." Cleansing Flame counts its wounds as having been caused in assault; Crowe's attacks rend on 4+. Cleansing Flame is not an "attack" in the RAW sense and therefore does not rend when Crowe uses it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the Silvercoat Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Cleansing Flame counts its wounds as having been caused in assault; Crowe's attacks rend on 4+. Cleansing Flame is not an "attack" in the RAW sense and therefore does not rend when Crowe uses it. But in the FAQ Cleansing Flame is a Close Combat Attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 But in the FAQ Cleansing Flame is a Close Combat Attack. Q: Is Cleansing Flame a shooting attack or close combat attack? (p31)A: A close combat attack. Well, there you have it. By the RAW of the FAQ, Crowe's Cleansing Flame Rends. Way to go, GW :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playedsincedaemonhunters Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 Thinking into his swordsman rule, all the knights use their weapons to heighten there psychic powers, so the sword, could be the conduit for him to use his cleansing flame, and by extent, alow him to rend with it? just a thought as to HOW that would work. tis a troublesome man isnt he... oh crowe. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Again RAW it sounds like it rends. RAI it is just plain stupid that that is the case (but it would make sense as to why he is so terrible otherwise.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Thinking into his swordsman rule, all the knights use their weapons to heighten there psychic powers, so the sword, could be the conduit for him to use his cleansing flame, and by extent, alow him to rend with it? just a thought as to HOW that would work. tis a troublesome man isnt he... oh crowe. :( Using fluff to justify rules isn't troublesome- its usually an outright "no" :eek But as Elric showed, the RAW line up the way you want them to. That said, I still wouldn't attempt to claim that Crowe's Cleansing Flame Rends. Anywhere. If you use it on your friends, you're abusing them. If you try to use it in a tournament, the players will likely dock your sportsmanship score and the TO won't like it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playedsincedaemonhunters Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 I had no intention of trying to use a fluffy excuse to make an otherwise terrible character ( besides purifiers troops) better i simply had a question, and was seeking an answer, i love crowes model, and have yet to run his list because i feared hes turn 1 demise. Now seeing that he is a good cc combatant, i will maybe write him a list. I still want to see if GW releases an exact clarification about him. hes no one trick pony yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 OH he won't die turn 1 unless you are playing kill points (and he still won't then) he really poses so small a threat that no one spends time shooting at him and in kill points you will reserve him to deny the KP. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Holy heck... I might actually use Crowe now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playedsincedaemonhunters Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 Holy heck... I might actually use Crowe now... I KNOW RIGHT? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 OK, so I bust out my 'dex. The Master Swordsman, while the fluff implies Crowe should only get Rending when using a Blade, that's not the rule given. The Master Swordsman doesn't state that any attack Crowe makes with the Blade of Antwyr Rends on a 4+, but that any Close Combat attack rends on a 4+. Crowe doesn't even have to use the Blade as his CCW, he's entitled within the rules to punch, or kick in CC, with his base stats. And, these, due to the Wording of Master Swordsman, would also rend on a 4+. (As a slight aside, he also has Frag/Krak grendaes. If these are using in CC, on a Walker/Vehicle I suppose these would also rend on thier Penetration rolls...) So by RAW, any Close Combat attack he makes, with no stipulation on what Weapon used, Rends. The only Question remains whether Cleasing Flame as a Psychic Power that is used in the Assault Phase counts as a 'Close Combat Attack'. Which the FAQ clarifies. So RAW, Crowe Rends with any Cleasing Flame wound. Nice. Very Nice indeed. So what if he gives rerolls and FC to his opponents. CF always goes first, will kill everyone 50% of the time, and you drop into a rerollable 3+/4++ for everything you don't kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Re-rollable 2+/4++ :) the power will wound every model without an invul save 50% of the time. If this is true you will use this power just about every time (except when you want to die and take someone with you.) but even 1 on 1 against another IC, you would use this then hit I10 stance and essentially get 1 auto hitting I Infinite attack, and D3+1 I10 attacks with re-rolls to hit, and always wound on a 4+. He would be a good squad killer if this is true. Which by RAW it is, but it smacks of WAAC to actually try to use this (especially since most people think GKs are over powered already). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Ah he has Artificier Armour. Even better. ;) Crowe doesn't get the reroll to hit, his opponents do. ;) Well, I won't feel bad about using this in the slightest. Crowe is bad, and any little thing tht helps him actually get a use is fine in my books! ;) It's not like he just can't be IDed by a Meltagun before he reaches CC anyway! :P Now, about Grenades. Do they Rend on a 6+ in CC with Crowe, or 4+? While TMS states any attack in CC has the Rending special rule (which would cover grenades), it then says the To Wound roll rends on 4+. Greandes don't roll to wound, they roll to penetrate. :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Crowe does get re-rolls to hit he has the titan's herald rule. He just cannot join a squad and has so few attacks it rarely matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Do they Rend on a 6+ in CC with Crowe, or 4+? While TMS states any attack in CC has the Rending special rule (which would cover grenades), it then says the To Wound roll rends on 4+. Greandes don't roll to wound, they roll to penetrate. They would rend Vs. Vehicles on a 6 and against infantry on a 4. I miss Death Company rending krak grenades I got 3 Land raiders with those things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Crowe does get re-rolls to hit he has the titan's herald rule. He just cannot join a squad and has so few attacks it rarely matters. So he does! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 The cleansing flames states: before attacks are made, wound on 4+ saving throws allowed, counts towards combat resolution. I dunno about you but i dont see the part that it can combine with rending attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 The cleansing flames states: before attacks are made, wound on 4+ saving throws allowed, counts towards combat resolution. I dunno about you but i dont see the part that it can combine with rending attacks. If you read back through the thread you'll see that the FAQ specifies that Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack. Crowe's rules specify that his close combat attacks rend on a 4+. Seems pretty clear cut to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Unless the early leak had it's CF descrption changed CF says; This power is used <snip> after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Unless the early leak had it's CF descrption changed CF says; This power is used <snip> after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck Doesn't seem to be relevant though. It's a close combat attack made by Crowe and they all rend on a 4+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Aye, just wanted to check whether CF said before attacks are made, which it doesn't. ;) It's all good by RAW from my PoV! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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