I need help with a scout-heavy armylist.

[Stormshadow]

Hello!

I need help to put together a scout-heavy armylist. The “must haves” are Telion with 8 snipers and a ML, one squad of scout bikes and two Lad speeder storms ( I have never used either before). "Can’t have" are tanks other than Land Raiders and transports.

 

I don’t have a codex on me so I have no idea about the points but I have been thinking along the lines of:

 

HQ:

 

Shrike

 

Lysander

 

Elites:

 

10x Sternguard: Power Fist, 8x kombi melta, 2x missile launcher.

 

Ironclad Dreadnought: 2x HK missile, Frag launcher, Drop pod. (and a HF if he doesn’t have one already)

 

Troops:

 

10x Scouts: Telion, ML, 8xsniper rifles.

 

5x Scouts: Power Fist, Combi-melta, Melta Bomb, 4x ccw/Bolt Pistol.

 

5x Scouts: Power Fist, Combi-melta, Melta Bomb, 4x ccw/Bolt Pistol.

 

Fast Attack:

 

10x Scout bikes. Power Fist, Combi-melta, Melta Bomb. 3x Grenade launchers.

 

Landspeeder Storm: Multi Melta

 

Landspeeder Storm: Multi Melta

 

My thoughts are that the speeders, bikes and the Ironclad make 4-6 priority targets that wave to be dealt with. Shrike and Lysander infiltrate with the Sternguard, which will hopefully be able to rapid fire with rerolls in turn one . In a best case scenario I get the first turn and destroy all my opponents vehicles turn one, he then has no were to hide from my sternguard.

[Jimmy Carmine]

You're on the right website, greatcrusade08 has several posts on the subject. Check out the links in his sig here, or alternatively give it a little while and he'll no doubt post here. :D

[maturin]

Yes, greatcrusade08's tacticas and writings are essential reading if you're considering scout anything.

 

One brief thing i'll point out right away is that your infiltrating sternguard are

1) A big target, with 2 expensive HQ's attached.

2) Unlikely to get into melta range, even while infiltrating. Such a big unit is unlikely to be completely out of LOS of a target unit - which means you're starting 18" away. Even assuming a full 6" movement, you're not going to be in melta-effect range on your first turn.

[greatcrusade08]

give it a little while and he'll no doubt post here. :(

 

i cant help it, scout topics are like catnip to me.. im in meetings though :angry:

 

Hello!

I need help to put together a scout-heavy armylist. The “must haves” are Telion with 8 snipers and a ML, one squad of scout bikes and two Lad speeder storms ( I have never used either before). "Can’t have" are tanks other than Land Raiders and transports.

 

hi stormshadow.

the units you have chosen are the best scout units in the dex. infact your plan to run a demi-scout list is better than running all scouts (scouts have some weaknesses that only non scout units can negate)

 

 

HQ:

 

Shrike.. 195

 

Lysander.. 200

 

Elites:

 

10x Sternguard: Power Fist, 8x kombi melta, 2x missile launcher.. 325

 

Ironclad Dreadnought: 2x HK missile, Frag launcher, Drop pod. (and a HF if he doesn’t have one already).. 215

 

Troops:

 

10x Scouts: Telion, ML, 8xsniper rifles.. 200

 

5x Scouts: Power Fist, Combi-melta, Melta Bomb, 4x ccw/Bolt Pistol.. 115

 

5x Scouts: Power Fist, Combi-melta, Melta Bomb, 4x ccw/Bolt Pistol.. 115

 

Fast Attack:

 

10x Scout bikes. Power Fist, Combi-melta, Melta Bomb. 3x Grenade launchers.. 265 (cant have the combi-melta and fist, as assume you want to keep the fist)

 

Landspeeder Storm: Multi Melta.. 65

 

Landspeeder Storm: Multi Melta.. 65

 

My thoughts are that the speeders, bikes and the Ironclad make 4-6 priority targets that wave to be dealt with. Shrike and Lysander infiltrate with the Sternguard, which will hopefully be able to rapid fire with rerolls in turn one . In a best case scenario I get the first turn and destroy all my opponents vehicles turn one, he then has no were to hide from my sternguard.

 

thats 1760.. 1750 is a standard in the UK at the moment, youd probably have to drop a combi-melta on the sternies to make it fit.

however there are some issues with this list.

as mentioned above you couldnt infiltrate the sternguard into melta range in turn one, a drop pod however would be perfect, and would allow for you to combat squad the sternies for shooting those meltas at juicy targets.

id also rethink putting lysander in, hes a big chunk of points and his re-rolls only works on the bolter part of thier combis, but dont work with the melta part.

also whether your drop pod or infiltrate and walk those MLs arent going to be used until turn 2, likely youll be in assault by then..

 

generally id say your two elite choices are too expensive, too many toys.

id drop the frag launcher on the dread (only works when you charge into cover anyay) and remove a few combis and those ML from the sternies (take 6 combis only, they can split 3 per combat squad, 3 can kill a land raider).. that saves 35 points, enough for a drop pod.

i realise two pods becomes awkward, but it also opens up new tactical options incase you dont get first turn etc.

 

personally what id do is drop lysander take 5 sternies with combis in a pod and put in a ten man assult squad to run with shrike for first turn assaults..

 

the scout units though are spot on..

[Kingkaneda]

Hey man, cool to see the scouts get some more love. I really like fielding them, they are a bit more fragile but a lot more versatile than tactical marines(IMO). I'll just post you my go-to 1750 army list wich has quite a lot in common with your list, in the scout department anyway.

 

HQ

Lysander

Cassius

 

TROOPS

10 scouts(8 snipers, 1 missile launcher, Telion)

10 scouts(5 ccws, 4 shotguns, combimelta, meltabomb)

 

ELITES

10 Tactical terminators(2 Cyclone missilelaunchers, 2 chainfists)

 

FAST ATTACK

5 Scoutbikes(combimelta, meltabomb, clustermines)

Land speeder storm(heavy flamer)

Land speeder storm(heavy flamer)

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

Predator(LC sponsons, Hunter killer missile)

Predator(LC sponsons, Hunter killer missile)

Whirlwind

 

In this list I usually put Lysander and Cassius with the terminators, this negates their weakness(AP1/2 shots) quite a lot. The terminators can take a lot of fire, and take your opponents attention away from my fragile scouts. The terminators shooting power is amazing, every unit is afraid of them. This unit(including the HQs, wich are pretty hot on their own) is also my only decent close combat threat/deterent. Lysander on his own makes mincemeat out of small elite close combat squads.

 

The snipers with telion is my main scoring unit, with Telion's stealth and lysanders fortified defences stuff combined they are HARD to kill. And with the nice range from the snipers, they can actually support your main battle. I always shoot with them first, when they pin a unit all your other fire can go against other units.

 

The shotgun and ccw scouts go in the landspeeder storms. They are really versatile, they can have one of 5 jobs:

1. Scoring units that can hide behind buildings and move very far.

2. Defend your army against a heavy droppod army

3. Strong first turn assault, especially when both combat squads attack the same enemy

4. All round harrasment, with their movement speed and the option to outflank they can avoid dangers and attack weakpoints. Great to speedbump some units with as well.

5. Kill heavy armor(combimelta+meltabomb/krakgrenades is pretty nice)

 

The bikes originally came into my list to support my snipers with their clustermines, and my terminators with a cover save. Deploy them 12-15 inches away from your terminators, then use your scout move to turbo boost in front of your terminators to give them a cover save(the turbo boost gives the bike a 3+ cover save...so it sucks to shoot at them as well:p). Besides this they are good at points 3, 4 and 5 that i mentioned with the scouts.

 

Predators for some much needed long range antitank/heavy infantry fire.

 

Whirlwind for a bit of antihorde, and to up the chance of pinning a unit.

 

 

The whole army is hard to kill with shooting, forcing the enemy to come closer (and thats when the scout speed bumps and the terminator deathstar come in).

 

So hopefully you can get some inspiration from this.

[DarkGuard]

Ooo, Terminators and Scouts? Sorry GC08 but I have a bit of expertise on this too now :sweat:.

 

Terminators and Scouts is a list I've been doing for my Chapter's special formation, which has been running a 10 man CML Tactical Terminator squad and Lysander just like yours. Less Scouts though, for more Terminators, maybe I need to sort that bit out.

 

Anyway, first thing to do is use two 5 man units of Scouts. You can't combat squad them into two Storms and Outflank, so it'll be best to have them as two units, especially as you're going to combat squad them anyway. Gets you another Sergeant and therefore more wargear. Drop Cassius to make them fit, you don't need him. I guess he's running with the Terminators, but with Lysander there he's not really needed. Or drop the Whirlwind, up to you. Or, perhaps better, drop those HKMs and possibly meltabombs on the bikes.

 

If you can multi-meltas on the storm will go nicely with the Scout's equipment, well worth thinking about.

 

Otherwise, looks solid.

 

Expect Lysander's unit to take a lot of fire, but that unit is nigh unstoppable unless greeted by a solid wall of AP1/2. March them up, keep them spaced out, and remember to use Lysander as a walking shield.

 

It's a fun army to play, a bit slow and ponderous, but lots and lots of fun.

[Kingkaneda]

I'm actually very happy with the list as it is now, I feel confident it can take on all armies due to its flexibility. Cassius is just another guy that doesnt care about taking a STR 8-10 ap 1-2 hit, and like lysander(only less so) he can charge something small(5 man squad) by himself and deal with it. I used to play with less scouts, but then I found the army too vulnerable to flamer droppods. With the extra scouts I have some more scoring units, if I need them.

 

So I cant combat squad a units into 2 transports? I don't see why not....but I might be missing something. Could you give me a page number for reference?

 

Thanks for the tips.

[maturin]

So I cant combat squad a units into 2 transports? I don't see why not....but I might be missing something. Could you give me a page number for reference?

 

You can only combat squad when you deploy the unit on the table - see the combat squad rule text in C:SM. What DarkGuard is saying is that this prevents you from having the storms + scouts in reserve and arriving together (already loaded) since you'd have one unit carried by two transports while in reserve.

 

You don't lose anything by having two scout squads (other than a kill point) so there's no real reason to have only one 10-man scout squad. Plus, you get two sergeants with WS/BS 4 out of it.

[DarkGuard]

So I cant combat squad a units into 2 transports? I don't see why not....but I might be missing something. Could you give me a page number for reference?

 

You can only combat squad when you deploy the unit on the table - see the combat squad rule text in C:SM. What DarkGuard is saying is that this prevents you from having the storms + scouts in reserve and arriving together (already loaded) since you'd have one unit carried by two transports while in reserve.

 

You don't lose anything by having two scout squads (other than a kill point) so there's no real reason to have only one 10-man scout squad. Plus, you get two sergeants with WS/BS 4 out of it.

 

Yup this is it, should have made myself clearer, sorry.

 

With 5 man Scout squads its about the Sergeant's equipment, especially if they're acting forwards in Storms that you may want to Outflank, especially if you don't get first turn. Therefore it'd be a good idea to have two 5 man squads from the beginning. You won't even gain a KP as you're planning on combat squadding them anyway so they can fit in your transports.

 

And Cassius is cool, that is 325pts on characters, but he can take a hit. Personally though I'd prefer a Terminator Libby with SS. Can take plasma wounds, Null Zone is a very handy power, while Gate adds some mobility to the squad, while you also have a psychic hood. Again, worth a thought.

[greatcrusade08]

its ok darkguard, scouts and termies is a great combo.

 

i saw kingkanedas list yesterday but didnt get time to reply.. the two 5 man squads was the first thing that came to mind.. for those extra few points you get the sergeants equipment AND the ability to outflank.. that in itself gives tactical flexibility,a nd thats IMO how games are won before you even play them.

 

edit: i have to agree with over 35 power fist/hammer hits on the charge, you really dont 'need' the re-rolls, a termy libby gives you much more of an edge, and that hood advancing up the table with some tough ablative wounds can change alot of games.

[Kingkaneda]

Ok I get it now. So I CAN deploy 2 combat squads in landspeeder storms, but I can't make them outflank or come from reserve that way. Might kill a scout bike or 1-2 Hunterkillers to change it into 2 5 man squads then. I just really like the hunter killers, they give my shooting that tiny edge that is sometimes the difference between a wrecked vehicle and a stunned vehicle. Now that I think of it...I think Ill delete the chainfists from the terminators.

 

Same goes for cassius, I'm afraid I like him too much. The advice on taking a libby in stead is sound, but in terms of taking hits he is less versatile(he'd ^_^ bricks when facing melta/lascannon kind of shots). It is tempting though...especially the hood would be a great boost. But I do like the rerolls to hit on the termies once they have lost a few brothers, keeps them killy all game long ;)

 

 

@thread starter:

 

You cant take a pf AND a combimelta on your scoutbike sarge, I used to do that too....but you cannot replace 1 bolt pistol with those 2 ;)

[DarkGuard]

But in terms of battlefield application the Libby is more versatile and adds more to the list. Cassius is just another bullet absorber, and you have one in Lysander.

 

But keep the chainfists, they're one of your best weapons against Land Raiders, something that HKMs can't deal with so well. And they aren't one shot, unlike HKMs. Seriously, HKMs shouldn't be a mandatory upgrade, but more one to take when points have run dry.

 

Also, slightly off topic but yet still related, when taking melta torpedo teams GC08, are the meltabombs particularly essential? Just asking as I've had to drop them for a current list I'm planning and was wondering how much of an impact that would have on the team's performance. Thanks :).

[greatcrusade08]

they arent essential.. when i 'built' the first melta storm it was done specifically to take down AV14.

after a while i switched them for fists to yield better results against preds/vindies and the like.

 

im now back to using combi-melta, meltabombs.. however i do miss those fists.

 

even if your running naked, with only the combi-weapon, the kraks can deal with most vehicles (rear armour 10 at a standstill)

[DarkGuard]

Thanks for the assurance GC08, good to hear they're not completely essential. Of course that unit is more for taking down AV14 when present, but I suppose I'll have to deal without and put trust in my chainfists and Lysander. I may be using a power fist in there so Rhinos beware!

[Stormshadow]

It’s nice to see the conversation flowing B)

 

I hope you don’t mind too much if a jump in with some comments and questions regarding my original post :)

 

I have realized that the stern guard and HQ squad isn’t the right choice for this army, not because there out of melta range, but because I rely need something that can take on the heavy hitters in cc.

 

I would rely like to keep the dread as he is, the Frag launchers also have defensive grenades and that can be a huge help. Say I pop a Land Raider with the Dread and five angry Hammernators fall out, when they charge the Ironclad they will have five less attacks with their Thunder Hammers, (that’s 10 attacks, 5 hits and hopefully not more than one pen).

 

I’ve had a hard time figuring out what unit I should replace the Sternguards with. I have thought a lot about terminators as described above, but I am gravitating more and more towards a command squad on bikes. T5, FNP and Storm Shields seem good for durability and they can have Power Fists an and Power weapons for cc. Giving them flamers and meltas also ads versatility, and as they keep their twin linked bolters they still maintain a good range of fire.

 

A question about tactics: If I add a locater beacon to my scout bikes and a librarian with the gate psychic power, on a bike, to the Command squad, I will pretty much add a 24” move to my flamers and melts. The scouts move 24“ forward, the librarian teleports the command squad and they melta-kill a vindicator. The command squad gets attacked and locked in combat but Khan lets the squad disengage. The Scouts again move 24” in another direction and the command squad teleports there to use their flamers to slaughter some outflanking scouts. What do you think about this for a valid tactic? Has anyone tried it?

 

So this is my new attempt on a list:

 

HQ:

 

Khan: 205p

 

Librarian Epistolary: Bike, Gate and some shouting power. 185p

 

Comand Scuad: 2x Power Fist and Melta gun, 2x flamer and Storm Shields, Apothecary with Power weapon, Bikes. 330p

 

Troops:

 

10x Scouts: Telion, Missile Launcher, 8x Sniper 200p

 

5x Scouts: Power Fist, Melta Bombs, Combi-melta, 4 ccw/boltpistol. 115p

 

5x Scouts: Power Fist, Melta Bombs, Combi-flamer, 4 ccw/boltpistol. 115p

 

Fast:

 

LSS: Multi Melta 65p

 

LSS: Heavy flamer 60p

 

10x Scout Bikes: : Power Fist, Melta Bombs, Combi-melta, 3x Grenade Launchers, Locator Beacon, Mines. 315p

 

Heavy:

 

Ironclad: Heavy Flamer, 2x HK missile, Frag Launchers, Drop pod. 215p

 

Sum: 1805p

 

That’s 55p to much, any ides on where I cloud loos some extra points? One ide could be to lose the Epistolary upgrade on the librarian and give him Null Zone instead of a shouting power…

[DarkGuard]

Sternguard are hard hitters, their special ammo makes them so. The ability to universally wound all non-vehicles models on a 2+ in addition to being able to take a couple of special weapons, like heavy flamers, and a load of combis make them hard hitters. Sure they may not be like your Command squad or Hammernator squad, but they're still a fantastic unit to take out near enough everything with, if you equip them right. If you're having trouble with them don't hesitate to check out my Sternguard Tactica, as they are one of the more rewarding units when you use them right, but can obviously be hard to use due to the large amount of options available to them. For your list you just need a transport or Pod, or, perhaps more easily done, your Libby with Gate to ferry them around.

 

As for your list, GC08 has already told you that a Scout bike Sergeant cannot have both a combi-melta and power fist as he only has one weapon to trade out, yet he still has both weapons. One of those has to be dropped to make it a legal list, as at the moment it's illegal. Furthermore, the Apothecary in the Command squad cannot take any weapon upgrades, so him having a power weapon is also illegal.

 

Then you have some excess points being spent on things that aren't needed. The Libby doesn't need Epistolary, especially as you don't know which power your taking. It's overpriced at the best times, especially as you're paying half his original cost for no additional durability, a krak missile will still kill him in one. You also don't need two power fists in that Command squad, so you can save points by dropping one to a lightning claw, don't give it a storm shield though. Also, I'd drop those meltaguns, ideally you should be letting other units take out the tanks with melta, and let them kill infantry. So in that case convert the flamer Storm squad to a melta Storm squad, it won't use many points and will increase the effectiveness of your alpha strike. Also, with Khan, you're able to outflank that bike squad, so you really don't need that Libby in there, so don't be afraid to get rid of him for more points. If you lose the Libby, the locator beacon (you don't exactly need it do you?) the illegal upgrades, and meltabombs on the Scout bikers, plus trim that Command squad down a little you can save about 240pts.

 

You can then use those points to take advantage of Khan's abilities to allow biker troops and Outflank by adding some Space Marine bike squads into troops, giving you a more solid core and more mobile core to the army, which can bring along some plasma for elite troops or melta for tanks, helping out your other units. A 5 man unit including MM attack bike sporting 2 meltaguns and a combi-melta brings your total to 1755pts, which should be easy to cut down to 1750pts.

[Stormshadow]

First of all, I would like to thank every one for their comments and advice. I believe it is the first time I have posted in this part of the forum and it is rely nice to receive so much feedback!

 

Thank you Dark Guard for pointing out the illegalities once again, I missed them the first time. I was unsure about the Apothecary, “is he an apothecary or a ‘veteran’ apothecary” thanks for clearing that up.

 

As for Sternguard being heavy hitters, I know all about that :unsure:. I won a tournament with a sternguard heavy list in the beginning of 2010 and didn’t lose a single fight, they are pure goodness and I look forward to reading your tactica :). To clarify, I did not want to switch them for another unit of “heavy hitters” but for a unit that can withstand the beating of another unit of heavy hitters in cc, hence the T5, FNP and 3++ of the Command Squad.

 

I totally agree that the Epistolary upgrade is almost always a huge waist of points. But I thought that I just may have found the only circumstance where it is worth taking it. The librarian will use gate in almost every movement face, if it is paired with a psychic power that is cast in the opposing player turn then I wouldn’t need the Epistolary upgrade. But if I take the AP3 flamer or the 4 AP2 shots (can’t remember the powers names) then it would be important to be able to cast one power in the movement phase and one in the shooting phase. An enemy sternguard unit would wreak havoc with my army, but it would be so sweet to move 24” towards the flank of such a unit with my Scouts and then call in the librarian and the Command Squad to hit them with one S5 AP3 Flamer, along with some additional flamers and meltas ;). It would be equally nice to do the same thing to some Terminators, but with the AP 2 shots (hoping that more than one will hit and wound :P). But still, 50 points are 50 points, and I have 55 points too many.

 

It would be great if I could fit a Bike squad in the army! It is amazing that you can fit 2 meltas and a Multimelta in a T5 3+ (3+ cover save) unit that is scoring AND can move 24” to take an objective. If I have this additional troop I could make two melta suicide squads with my LSS. But If I only have my three scout squads as scoring, I don’t want to kill two of them first turn…

 

I made the first list to play around with Scouts. But I got side tracked when I discovered this “move 24 inches and still fire your weapons” trick. So I have decided to make two lists instead: One to play around with my scouts and bikes and one to play around with teleporting tactics :).

 

List One:

 

HQ:

 

Khan: 205p

 

Troops:

 

7x Bike squad: Power Fist, 1x Attack Bike with multi melta, 2x meltagun. 260

 

7x Bike squad: Power Weapon and melta bombs, 1x Attack Bike, 2x Flamer. 235

 

 

10x Scouts: Telion, Missile Launcher, 8x Sniper 200p

 

5x Scouts: Power Fist, Melta Bombs, Combi-melta, 4 ccw/boltpistol. 115p

 

5x Scouts: Power Fist, Melta Bombs, Combi-melta, 4 ccw/boltpistol. 115p

 

Fast:

 

LSS: Multi Melta 65p

 

LSS: Multi Melta 65p

 

10x Scout Bikes: Power Fist and, 3x Grenade Launchers, Mines. 275p

 

Heavy:

 

Ironclad: Heavy Flamer, 2x HK missile, Frag Launchers, Drop pod. 215p

 

Sum: 1750p

 

 

List Two:

 

HQ:

 

Librarian: Terminator amour, Storm Shield. Gate & Dome. 140p

 

Librarian: Terminator amour, Storm Shield. Gate & Null Zone. 140p

 

Elites:

 

10x Sternguard: Power Fist, 8x Combi Melta, 2x Heavy flamer. 335p

 

10x Assault Terminators: 5x TH/SS, 5x LCs. 400p

 

Troops:

 

5x Scouts. Combi-Flamer and meltabombs, Missile launcher, 3x ccw. 90p

 

10x Tactical Marines: Powerfist, Flamer, Missile Launcher, Drop Pod. 230p

 

Fast attack.

 

5x Scout Bikes: Power Fist and Melta bombs, 3x Grenade Launchers, Mines, Beacon. 205p

 

5x Scout Bikes: Melta Bombs, Mines, Beacon. 150p

 

LSS: Heavy Flamer 60p

 

Sum: 1750p

[DarkGuard]

You're just like me, having about 5 army lists on the go at the once! :)

 

No problems about the illegalities. For the record Apothecaries are Apothecaries not Vets. While they have a different statline clearly called Apothcary, despite it being the same, and therefore can't take equipment, as they aren't Veterans. Same with the Company Champion (though there are debates about whether you give him equipment and then upgrade him, basically what order you do it in).

 

And fair enough with the Sternguard, I know what you mean, its why I have dilemmas about Honour Guard vs Sternguard, and then get a strange, crazy voice telling me to put them both in at 1750pts. Also, with the Libby, while Gating and then casting Avenger is cool, you don't want to be Gating that close in case you scatter and Deep Strike mishap, which is why that doesn't work so well.

 

As for the lists, the second reminds me a little of my double Guard list, using a rock hard combat unit with Sternguard, best of both worlds. But it is top heavy and lacks support, you'll need to practise a lot to get it work consistently.

 

The first is therefore better and most solid, though I feel multiple 5 man squads of bikes may be better than 7 man squads, but I wouldn't know.