frost-weapons are they worth it, and on who?

[MonSTeR]

I just math hammered it out in conjunction with the use of a Wolf Tooth Necklace, (because I always give my ICs them).

 

Up to 6 attacks per phase, the Wolf Claw's re-roll to wound doesn't ever make up for the fact that using a Frost Blade grants you that extra attack regarles of the target's toughness.

 

When you factor in the other 70 to 100 or so points that the usually hero costs i think the extra 5 points is worth it for frost blade. If you start to add in extra wargear like a storm shield and thus lose the extra attack that a FB can have, everything changes again.

[Wysten]

I just math hammered it out in conjunction with the use of a Wolf Tooth Necklace, (because I always give my ICs them).

 

Up to 6 attacks per phase, the Wolf Claw's re-roll to wound doesn't ever make up for the fact that using a Frost Blade grants you that extra attack regarles of the target's toughness.

 

When you factor in the other 70 to 100 or so points that the usually hero costs i think the extra 5 points is worth it for frost blade. If you start to add in extra wargear like a storm shield and thus lose the extra attack that a FB can have, everything changes again.

 

I see, did that include thunder wolf strength? Would that factor much?

 

That being said, I would always give my wolf guard and lone wolf Wolf Claws, though perhaps the odd frost weapon for that 3rd attack on the charge might help.

[MalachiOfRuss]

I just math hammered it out in conjunction with the use of a Wolf Tooth Necklace, (because I always give my ICs them).

True. With 6A, a FB averages 2.6136 Wounds. With 5A, a WC averages 2.475 Wounds (rerolling to Wound, rerolling to Hit is worse at 2.1945 Wounds).

 

If one is losing the Pistol for say, a Storm Shield, the Wolf Claw is the better option at that point. Or if you have no Pistol to begin with, such as on a Terminator with a Storm Bolter. It's always better to give your Terminator a WC over the Frost Blade (and it's cheaper too!).

[dswanick]

I just math hammered it out in conjunction with the use of a Wolf Tooth Necklace, (because I always give my ICs them).

True. With 6A, a FB averages 2.6136 Wounds. With 5A, a WC averages 2.475 Wounds (rerolling to Wound, rerolling to Hit is worse at 2.1945 Wounds).

 

If one is losing the Pistol for say, a Storm Shield, the Wolf Claw is the better option at that point. Or if you have no Pistol to begin with, such as on a Terminator with a Storm Bolter. It's always better to give your Terminator a WC over the Frost Blade (and it's cheaper too!).

Yeah, that was kinda my point - on a Thunderwolf Cavalry Lord with Frost Blade and pistol S6/A5+1, sure the Frost Blade is better than the Wolf Claw. But on less extreme models (WGPL, WGBL) who're only getting 2 or 3 attacks and models with Wargear other than SCCW/Pistol the Wolf Claw starts being the better value.

 

Look at it this way -

Wolf Guard Pack Leader - S4/A2. Would you want to give him Frost weapon and Bolt Pistol for +20pts, or a Combi-weapon and a Wolf Claw for +20pts?

Yeah, the CW/WC combo has a slightly lower statistical damage output in CC, but the FW/BP combo gives up more damage output in Shooting. And if you give up the BP for a Combi - you've really nerfed your CC potential and are +5pts on the total model cost.

 

When paired with any wargear other than a Pistol the Wolf Claw is a better value than the Frost weapon. On any model with only 2 or 3 base attacks the Wolf Claw is still probably a better value, unless its a dedicated CC model and has no reason to be shooting.

[MalachiOfRuss]

When paired with any wargear other than a Pistol the Wolf Claw is a better value than the Frost weapon. On any model with only 2 or 3 base attacks the Wolf Claw is still probably a better value, unless its a dedicated CC model and has no reason to be shooting.

QFT, 100%. Here's the ironic thing: on any model I have as a "dedicated CC" unit, I'll be taking a Storm Shield, so it's always the WC. The only times I take SS and FB is on WG when I need them to be different for Wound Allocation. If I put a Wolf Lord in my list for his CC abilities, I always take a Storm Shield on him so the WC is the better (and cheaper!) choice.

 

The only thing is that a single Wolf Claw (especially with a Shield) looks kinda dumb/weird. But in that case one could make some kind of hand weapon that "counts as Wolf Claw?"

 

EDIT: Now if the rumors are true and the next edition will have a Power Weapon give the model a 5+ "parry" Invulnerable save in CC - that completely changes things for Frost Blades!

[MonSTeR]

I just math hammered it out in conjunction with the use of a Wolf Tooth Necklace, (because I always give my ICs them).

True. With 6A, a FB averages 2.6136 Wounds. With 5A, a WC averages 2.475 Wounds (rerolling to Wound, rerolling to Hit is worse at 2.1945 Wounds).

 

If one is losing the Pistol for say, a Storm Shield, the Wolf Claw is the better option at that point. Or if you have no Pistol to begin with, such as on a Terminator with a Storm Bolter. It's always better to give your Terminator a WC over the Frost Blade (and it's cheaper too!).

Yeah, that was kinda my point - on a Thunderwolf Cavalry Lord with Frost Blade and pistol S6/A5+1, sure the Frost Blade is better than the Wolf Claw. But on less extreme models (WGPL, WGBL) who're only getting 2 or 3 attacks and models with Wargear other than SCCW/Pistol the Wolf Claw starts being the better value.

 

Look at it this way -

Wolf Guard Pack Leader - S4/A2. Would you want to give him Frost weapon and Bolt Pistol for +20pts, or a Combi-weapon and a Wolf Claw for +20pts?

Yeah, the CW/WC combo has a slightly lower statistical damage output in CC, but the FW/BP combo gives up more damage output in Shooting. And if you give up the BP for a Combi - you've really nerfed your CC potential and are +5pts on the total model cost.

 

When paired with any wargear other than a Pistol the Wolf Claw is a better value than the Frost weapon. On any model with only 2 or 3 base attacks the Wolf Claw is still probably a better value, unless its a dedicated CC model and has no reason to be shooting.

 

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[MonSTeR]

When paired with any wargear other than a Pistol the Wolf Claw is a better value than the Frost weapon. On any model with only 2 or 3 base attacks the Wolf Claw is still probably a better value, unless its a dedicated CC model and has no reason to be shooting.

QFT, 100%. Here's the ironic thing: on any model I have as a "dedicated CC" unit, I'll be taking a Storm Shield, so it's always the WC. The only times I take SS and FB is on WG when I need them to be different for Wound Allocation. If I put a Wolf Lord in my list for his CC abilities, I always take a Storm Shield on him so the WC is the better (and cheaper!) choice.

 

The only thing is that a single Wolf Claw (especially with a Shield) looks kinda dumb/weird. But in that case one could make some kind of hand weapon that "counts as Wolf Claw?"

 

EDIT: Now if the rumors are true and the next edition will have a Power Weapon give the model a 5+ "parry" Invulnerable save in CC - that completely changes things for Frost Blades!

 

I can't believe the rumours are that the 6th edition is shaping up to be a return to 2nd edition, I'll probably like 7th edition then as i really enjoyed the 3rd edition...

 

But with regards to WC and Ss I love that look at the moment as i had those weapons in the Dawn of War 2 Retribution multiplayer co-op thingy withthe claw from "The Warrior Born" unlock thingy...

[dswanick]

EDIT: Now if the rumors are true and the next edition will have a Power Weapon give the model a 5+ "parry" Invulnerable save in CC - that completely changes things for Frost Blades!

Yeah, but if those same rumors are true, Frost weapons won't get the Parry bonus because they are Power weapons with additional special rules which negates the Parry - so I'm told. (Pg.93 of the .pdf I have access to).

[MalachiOfRuss]

Yeah, but if those same rumors are true, Frost weapons won't get the Parry bonus because they are Power weapons with additional special rules which negates the Parry - so I'm told. (Pg.93 of the .pdf I have access to).

Ah you're right, I missed that "no additional rules" point. Hmm, well, there's no point in really getting stuck on rules that might be true.

[Nrthstar]

I like them for their usefulness on twc, and slightly less useful, but awesomely fluffy on everything else. The s5 just isn't as useful as a wolf claw or fist, but the twc s6 is awesome.

[Sven Dragonfire]

As already noted ; anything with initiative 5 it has to be a frostblade imo, combined with a wolftoothnecklace! I actually love the look of the wolfclaw and I do use these on wolfguard but when im rolling low, I keep on rolling low lol. My wolflord on TWC with a storm shield, Frostaxe and woolftoothnecklace has never bitten the dust, having faced many a greater deamon, Deamon Prince, unit of Thousand sons terminators and even Khârn the betrayer. A Frost weapon is the perfect match to a high initiative. "your opponent cant kill you if he's dead" lmao

As for 6th edition - not going there, my whole gaming group, possibly about 20 of us have said enough is enough- we're sticking with the existing edition with all its flaws!, though nothing our house rules havnt solved. Any one else have similar views on 6th edition.??

[MonSTeR]

As already noted ; anything with initiative 5 it has to be a frostblade imo, combined with a wolftoothnecklace! I actually love the look of the wolfclaw and I do use these on wolfguard but when im rolling low, I keep on rolling low lol. My wolflord on TWC with a storm shield, Frostaxe and woolftoothnecklace has never bitten the dust, having faced many a greater deamon, Deamon Prince, unit of Thousand sons terminators and even Khârn the betrayer. A Frost weapon is the perfect match to a high initiative. "your opponent cant kill you if he's dead" lmao

As for 6th edition - not going there, my whole gaming group, possibly about 20 of us have said enough is enough- we're sticking with the existing edition with all its flaws!, though nothing our house rules havnt solved. Any one else have similar views on 6th edition.??

 

I'm just doing the odd numbers, and am waiting for the 7th edition ;) It probably won't be that long before that one is leaked as a PDF on the internet anyway ;)

[Wysten]

Yeah, but if those same rumors are true, Frost weapons won't get the Parry bonus because they are Power weapons with additional special rules which negates the Parry - so I'm told. (Pg.93 of the .pdf I have access to).

Ah you're right, I missed that "no additional rules" point. Hmm, well, there's no point in really getting stuck on rules that might be true.

 

Aye, well, it might pave the way in other fields, perhaps that power weapon might be worth taking on the odd captain. I mean, getting 3 power weapon attacks on the charge with a grey hunter, then using it to most probably stop a power fist? For the price of a power fist, two power weapons in a grey hunter pack flailing away and occationally stopping instant death would make it worth much more then the +1 strenght. Either go the full hog with the fist or get a power weapon and +5 inval save for 10/15 in grey hunters and roughly 4/6 attacks each depending on the charge (assuming that you replace the pistol on Wolf Guard with Combi-melta). Not too bad a deal.

[Wysten]

Yeah, but if those same rumors are true, Frost weapons won't get the Parry bonus because they are Power weapons with additional special rules which negates the Parry - so I'm told. (Pg.93 of the .pdf I have access to).

Ah you're right, I missed that "no additional rules" point. Hmm, well, there's no point in really getting stuck on rules that might be true.

 

Aye, well, it might pave the way in other fields, perhaps that power weapon might be worth taking on the odd captain. I mean, getting 3 power weapon attacks on the charge with a grey hunter, then using it to most probably stop a power fist? For the price of a power fist, two power weapons in a grey hunter pack flailing away and occationally stopping instant death would make it worth much more then the +1 strenght. Either go the full hog with the fist or get a power weapon and +5 inval save for 10/15 in grey hunters and roughly 4/6 attacks each depending on the charge (assuming that you replace the pistol on Wolf Guard with Combi-melta). Not too bad a deal.

[Wildfire]

Here's a handy chart for all of you. This is per attack at S4, so you'll need to multiply it out by the number of actual attacks a model will get (not the attack characteristic!) in combat. I've highlighted MEq in blue, GEq in green, and AEq in yellow (AEq is Aspect Warrior equivalent or WS4/T3 models) attacked by WS4 for ease of reference. For models with WS 5+, MEq is in red, and GEq and AEq is in green. For the TW lovers out there, simply bump it up one level (two for power fists) for your calcs.

 

For instance, a WG charging an MEq would inflict an average of 1 wound with bp/pw, 1.14 wounds with bp/wc, 1.52 wounds with wc/wc, 1.32 wounds with bp/fw, and 1.26 wounds with bp/pf. So here you see that a WG with only one claw actually possesses inferior damage dealing capability compared to one with a frost weapon and bolt pistol in this common situation.

 

Edited to add: anyone know how to put this in three columns without clumping them all together? I'd be easier to read and take up a lot less vertical space that way.

 

 

3+ to hit

 

PW vs. T3 = 0.44

WC vs. T3 = 0.59

FB vs. T3 = 0.55

PF vs. T3 =0.55

 

PW vs. T4 = 0.33

WC vs. T4 = 0.5

FB vs. T4 = 0.44

PF vs. T4 = 0.55

 

PW vs. T5 = 0.22

WC vs. T5 = 0.37

FB vs. T5 = 0.33

PF vs. T5 = 0.55

 

PW vs. T6 = 0.11

WC vs. T6 = 0.20

FB vs. T6 = 0.22

PF vs. T6 = 0.55

 

PW vs. T7 = 0.11

WC vs. T7 = 0.20

FB vs. T7 = 0.11

PF vs. T7 = 0.44

 

PW vs. T8 = 0.00

WC vs. T8 = 0.00

FB vs. T8 = 0.11

PF vs. T8 = 0.33

 

PW vs. T9 = 0.00

WC vs. T9 = 0.00

FB vs. T9 = 0.00

PF vs. T9 = 0.22

 

PW vs. T10 = 0.00

WC vs. T10 = 0.00

FB vs. T10 = 0.00

PF vs. T10 = 0.11

 

 

 

 

 

4+ to hit

 

PW vs. T3 = 0.33

WC vs. T3 = 0.5

FB vs. T3 = 0.42

PF vs. T3 = 0.42

 

PW vs. T4 = 0.25

WC vs. T4 = 0.38

FB vs. T4 = 0.33

PF vs. T4 = 0.42

 

PW vs. T5 = 0.17

WC vs. T5 = 0.28

FB vs. T5 = 0.25

PF vs. T5 = 0.42

 

PW vs. T6 = 0.08

WC vs. T6 = 0.15

FB vs. T6 = 0.17

PF vs. T6 = 0.42

 

PW vs. T7 = 0.08

WC vs. T7 = 0.15

FB vs. T7 = 0.08

PF vs. T7 = 0.33

 

PW vs. T8 = 0.00

WC vs. T8 = 0.00

FB vs. T8 = 0.08

PF vs. T8 = 0.25

 

PW vs. T9 = 0.00

WC vs. T9 = 0.00

FB vs. T9 = 0.00

PF vs. T9 = 0.17

 

PW vs. T10 = 0.00

WC vs. T10 = 0.00

FB vs. T10 = 0.00

PF vs. T10 = 0.08

 

 

 

 

 

5+ to hit

 

PW vs. T3 = 0.22

WC vs. T3 = 0.37

FB vs. T3 = 0.28

PF vs. T3 = 0.28

 

PW vs. T4 = 0.17

WC vs. T4 = 0.28

FB vs. T4 = 0.22

PF vs. T4 = 0.28

 

PW vs. T5 = 0.11

WC vs. T5 = 0.19

FB vs. T5 = 0.17

PF vs. T5 = 0.28

 

PW vs. T6 = 0.06

WC vs. T6 = 0.10

FB vs. T6 = 0.11

PF vs. T6 = 0.28

 

PW vs. T7 = 0.06

WC vs. T7 = 0.10

FB vs. T7 = 0.06

PF vs. T7 = 0.22

 

PW vs. T8 = 0.00

WC vs. T8 = 0.00

FB vs. T8 = 0.06

PF vs. T8 = 0.17

 

PW vs. T9 = 0.00

WC vs. T9 = 0.00

FB vs. T9 = 0.00

PF vs. T9 = 0.11

 

PW vs. T10 = 0.00

WC vs. T10 = 0.00

FB vs. T10 = 0.00

PF vs. T10 = 0.06