Know No Fear (spoilers past first few posts)

[A D-B]

Meanwhile, Lorgar and Angron are actually Elsewhere, doing Other Things in Ultramar.

 

(blinks) Huh, what??? :blink:

 

The Butcher's Nails was written to precede both Know No Fear and Betrayer, but annoyingly, it's not released for a few months yet. But it's mentioned in Aurelian (sadly, limited edition for now) that Lorgar has no intention of going to Calth, and is taking Argel Tal and half the Word Bearers (alongside Angron and the World Eaters) "elsewhere" behind enemy lines, while Calth rages.

[Greyall]

In the end of Aurelian, Horus sends Lorgar and Angron together on a mission - it's what Butcher's Nails will be about, supposedly.

 

All that 'treating Lorgar as he used to be' is new to me, since I've only read the extracts. I was talking about this one:

 

Extract

 

Aye, Guilliman seems to be implying that the scrapcode infection is the Word Bearers' fault, but his tone is much more mild compared to his cold, cold self in Monarchia. I mean, he seems genuinely concerned about his words offending Lorgar.

 

So you say that distrust implied in the scrapcode discussion carries on into other conversations between the Primarchs...that's interesting. That 'political embarassment' line is killer...damn...

[A D-B]

In the end of Aurelian, Horus sends Lorgar and Angron together on a mission - it's what Butcher's Nails will be about, supposedly.

 

And Betrayer. Betrayer is about what Angron, Lorgar, Khârn, Argel Tal, and the rest of the Word Bearers and the World Eaters were doing in Ultramar while Calth was taking place. And after it.

[Greyall]

Oooh, nicey. You gonna give us a locked foreheads moment between Arget Tal and Khârn, won't you, good sir?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Meanwhile, Lorgar and Angron are actually Elsewhere, doing Other Things in Ultramar.

 

(blinks) Huh, what??? :jaw:

 

The Butcher's Nails was written to precede both Know No Fear and Betrayer, but annoyingly, it's not released for a few months yet. But it's mentioned in Aurelian (sadly, limited edition for now) that Lorgar has no intention of going to Calth, and is taking Argel Tal and half the Word Bearers (alongside Angron and the World Eaters) "elsewhere" behind enemy lines, while Calth rages.

 

and this is why I hate limited edition releases...

 

love the story? YES

want to read every scrap of story available? HELL YES

Purchase an insanely priced novella? NO, cant afford to.

 

sorry 40k fan who has spent money on us for 10 yrs, your going to miss elements of the story for a few years. have a nice day!

 

WLK

[Marshal Traben]

I'm reading Know No Fear a second time and there's apparently some kind of Rhino variant called the Rhino Advancer?

[Lord Ragnarok]

In the end of Aurelian, Horus sends Lorgar and Angron together on a mission - it's what Butcher's Nails will be about, supposedly.

 

And Betrayer. Betrayer is about what Angron, Lorgar, Khârn, Argel Tal, and the rest of the Word Bearers and the World Eaters were doing in Ultramar while Calth was taking place. And after it.

 

Thanks for that...I have Aurelian but didn't remember that. Been reading too many BL books and things start to merge in my grey matter.

Can't wait for BN. My thirst for heresy stuff is insatiable.

[Veteran Sergeant]

His legion is inexperienced, not really good at anything except proselytizing, but there are a lot of them and they have a bunch of disorganized, unreliable, rambling lunatics with them that are probably not very useful next to your battle hardened Imperial Army regiments.

his legion may not be as experienced as the ultras/IF/raven whatever, but that doesnt mean they were green troops.. a 20 year vet can be just as dangerous as a 40 year vet

Maybe. But we're talking a difference between a 50 year vet and a 200 year vet. I'm reminded of the magnificent death speech of Rutger Hauer's Roy Batty. "I've seen things you couldn't possibly imagine." Who knows what the actual experience differential was, but if the Ultramarines were among the most successful of legions, and the Word Bearers were the least successful, and spent the least time actually fighting, it has to be pretty significant over the course of a 200 year long Great Crusade. If it was only a small margin, it is unlikely the Emperor would have taken much notice.

 

When Guilliman inevitably destroys them, you haven't lost much, and they have the numbers to hopefully do enough damage to the Ultramarines to temporarily remove them from the equation.

it seems a weird argument.. the WBs were weak and unimportant ye they were capable of besting ultramarines in ultramar

Apparently not. They had complete surprise, struck down most of the Ultrarmarines' fire support, navy and ground troops and crippled their communications within the opening minutes of the conflict, removed their Primarch from the equation for most of the battle... and were still annihilated with only a handful of survivors managing to retreat. Seems like even with every possible advantage, they still weren't very good at warfighting. It was a "victory" in the terms that they accomplished their goal, but that still doesn't change the fact that they were obviously the most expendable of Horus's Space Marine assets.

 

And can we really call Calth home turf?

uhh yes.. england is my home turf, even if i havent been to every town.. if someone attacks engalnd i defend it with my life

That's not what we're talking about. Assuming you don't instinctively choose the flight response, if your enemies decided to try to kill you, you'll defend yourself at all costs because the alternative is death. When someone talks about having the advantage of fighting on your home turf, they aren't talking psychological like the roar of a crowd in a football match, it's about knowing the terrain and locales and how to exploit them to your best advantage. Ultramarines who weren't thoroughly familiar with Calth (which would probably be most of them) wouldn't have any real advantage fighting there.

your wrong

My wrong what?

[Captain Idaho]

Less talk about piracy guys, it's almost like you're condoning it and I don't want to see any complaints against the board.

 

I'm reading Know No Fear a second time and there's apparently some kind of Rhino variant called the Rhino Advancer?

 

Yeah I picked up on that last night (only got the book last night but so far like what I've read).

 

Maybe it'll be in the next Chaos Marine Codex?

[greatcrusade08]

His legion is inexperienced, not really good at anything except proselytizing, but there are a lot of them and they have a bunch of disorganized, unreliable, rambling lunatics with them that are probably not very useful next to your battle hardened Imperial Army regiments.

his legion may not be as experienced as the ultras/IF/raven whatever, but that doesnt mean they were green troops.. a 20 year vet can be just as dangerous as a 40 year vet

Maybe. But we're talking a difference between a 50 year vet and a 200 year vet. I'm reminded of the magnificent death speech of Rutger Hauer's Roy Batty. "I've seen things you couldn't possibly imagine." Who knows what the actual experience differential was, but if the Ultramarines were among the most successful of legions, and the Word Bearers were the least successful, and spent the least time actually fighting, it has to be pretty significant over the course of a 200 year long Great Crusade. If it was only a small margin, it is unlikely the Emperor would have taken much notice.

 

Exactly, who knows what the difference was.. you are asserting there was a sizeable difference at the time of the battle of calth, but yet you argue "who knows" against opposing viewpoint.

we dont know how the 'betrayal' affected the word bearers, nor do we know thier psychological state.

as we dont know we cant draw any conclusions, so we cannot say for sure there was a big difference man to man between the WB and UMs.

 

When Guilliman inevitably destroys them, you haven't lost much, and they have the numbers to hopefully do enough damage to the Ultramarines to temporarily remove them from the equation.

it seems a weird argument.. the WBs were weak and unimportant ye they were capable of besting ultramarines in ultramar

Apparently not. They had complete surprise, struck down most of the Ultrarmarines' fire support, navy and ground troops and crippled their communications within the opening minutes of the conflict, removed their Primarch from the equation for most of the battle... and were still annihilated with only a handful of survivors managing to retreat. Seems like even with every possible advantage, they still weren't very good at warfighting. It was a "victory" in the terms that they accomplished their goal, but that still doesn't change the fact that they were obviously the most expendable of Horus's Space Marine assets.

 

i dont get why your arguing this point, either they were capable of victory or thery werent, the fact they attacked by surprise was'nt exactly honourable, but war and victory doesnt care about honour, you use whatever you can.

if they were no good at 'war-fighting' then even with the element of surprise they would have been ground down by superior numbers and skills of the UMs (the UMs had superior numbers of marines on the ground, by a margin)..

this is obviously not the case, yet you continue to argue it.

yes the word bearers left the ground troops unsupported, but the damage they inflicted in the ground battles doesnt mesh with your assertions of their 'weakness'. furthermore if they werent as war-skilled then thier first strike wouldnt have been as crippling as it was against as you suggest a stronger, more drilled opponent

 

And can we really call Calth home turf?

uhh yes.. england is my home turf, even if i havent been to every town.. if someone attacks engalnd i defend it with my life

That's not what we're talking about. Assuming you don't instinctively choose the flight response, if your enemies decided to try to kill you, you'll defend yourself at all costs because the alternative is death. When someone talks about having the advantage of fighting on your home turf, they aren't talking psychological like the roar of a crowd in a football match, it's about knowing the terrain and locales and how to exploit them to your best advantage. Ultramarines who weren't thoroughly familiar with Calth (which would probably be most of them) wouldn't have any real advantage fighting there.

 

only in terms of tactics, psycology plays a big part in warfare.. this is common knowledge to all the great generals and warlords throughout history.

being on home turf without means for retreat, fighting for something greater than your own life IS a big deal.

 

your wrong

My wrong what?

for the benefit of the readers, it should say "you're wrong" not your wrong..

Lorgar isnt EMO. see my last posts

[Veteran Sergeant]

There's nothing to question here.

 

Did the WB's have every possible advantage aside from combat experience? Yes.

 

Were they still wiped out nearly to a man and ultimately fail to destroy the Ultramarines? Yes.

 

It's pretty cut and dried. Nothing to be confused about. Not discussing the honor of their tactics. Honor is for losers to whine about their opponents not having. The fact that the Word Bearers were cowardly scumbags isn't really something they can be faulted for. They knew from the beginning they had no chance against the Ultramarines on an even playing field and played their cards to their advantage. I wouldn't call off a drone strike on some jokers hiding in ambush because it would be more honorable to engage them directly.

 

if they were no good at 'war-fighting' then even with the element of surprise they would have been ground down by superior numbers and skills of the UMs

This is exactly what happened. :) Well, except that the Ultramarines didn't have the advantage of numbers anymore, just skills. At the end of the book where the remnants of the Word Bearers fleet ran away and the Ultramarines turned the tide on the ground. It doesn't take much to fill in the blanks where the remaining Word Bearers on Calth had no way to escape, and Calth belongs to the Ultramarines in modern 40K. They didn't experience post Heresy repatriation. :)

 

furthermore if they werent as war-skilled then thier first strike wouldnt have been as crippling as it was against as you suggest a stronger, more drilled opponent

It doesn't take much to destroy helpless ships docked and motionless. Abnett was fairly clear about how easy it was for the Word Bearers to destroy the unprepared Ultramarines and Imperial Navy vessels tied up at dock with their shields down and engines idled.

 

And you may want to stop declaring what the greatest Generals in history would consider to be "common knowledge". Seems a bit presumptive when you don't have the background in military history or strategy or terminology to back that claim up. Plus, you can't just rephrase what I said about combat psychology and pretend it is your own, new, counter argument, especially when the way you apply it is still irrelevant to the concept of a tactical advantage for fighting on familiar terrain. Just sayin'.

[Billuriye]

There's nothing to question here.

 

Did the WB's have every possible advantage aside from combat experience? Yes.

 

Were they still wiped out nearly to a man and ultimately fail to destroy the Ultramarines? Yes.

 

It's pretty cut and dried.

 

It's not a good discussion practice to say that there is nothing to discuss.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Well, let's face it. The topic was discussed and a clear conclusion was reached from the evidence examined. It isn't the beginning of a discussion, it's the logical closure point for one that is completed. I mean, we can continue to play a game where he says "Nuh uh!" to everything, but that's not very productive. :P But, in fairness, I was saying that those specific facts weren't able to be questioned, in response to his refusal to accept those as facts that were indeed presented in KNF.

[Brother Tyler]

There's plenty to discuss as so much of this is dependent upon individual opinion and interpretation. One individual's conclusion does not necessarily mean that everyone else agrees with that conclusion. If other members would like to debate the issue further, that's on them. Those that feel there is nothing further to discuss would best serve the collective by just leaving the discussion, since that is their desire.

 

Less personal attacks and petty bickering, please, gentlemen. Remember that this is a game. If you are unable to just ignore each other through self control, use the IGNORE button with each other so that you don't have to see contrary points and feel compelled to argue.

 

=][=

[A D-B]

Well, let's face it. The topic was discussed and a clear conclusion was reached from the evidence examined. It isn't the beginning of a discussion, it's the logical closure point for one that is completed. I mean, we can continue to play a game where he says "Nuh uh!" to everything, but that's not very productive. :P But, in fairness, I was saying that those specific facts weren't able to be questioned, in response to his refusal to accept those as facts that were indeed presented in KNF.

 

The problem here, dude, is that you're taking your viewpoint as objective fact. You're missing a lot of nuance and detail in your analysis. And the things you're missing have nothing to do with the military; they're entirely related to 40K as a setting. F'rex:

 

Who knows what the actual experience differential was, but if the Ultramarines were among the most successful of legions, and the Word Bearers were the least successful, and spent the least time actually fighting, it has to be pretty significant over the course of a 200 year long Great Crusade. If it was only a small margin, it is unlikely the Emperor would have taken much notice.

 

Here, you're wrong. The Word Bearers were arguably the most successful Legion for the entire last quarter of the Great Crusade. Maybe the Ultramarines were essentially on garrison duty all that time? You don't know how much the Ultramarines expanded at that point. You don't know the details of how many worlds the Word Bearers brought into the fold. You're assuming, and you know the lame old saying about what happens when you assume. You could even argue that one Legion was massively, rapidly expanding and conquering to prepare for a war only they knew was coming (which is true) and that the Ultramarines were already focusing on their roles as leaders after the Great Crusade, rather than as conquerors. In that light, who looks less ready and experienced now? The zealous crusader with 50 years of the most vicious bloodshed under his belt, or the guy who's spent 50 years sitting on his laurels overseeing the perfect, peaceful empire?

 

That is how 40K works. Nuances. Possibilities. Other angles. It's not as straight cut as you're suggesting.

 

There's nothing to question here.

 

Did the WB's have every possible advantage aside from combat experience? Yes.

 

Well... no. They didn't. Again, this seems to be a pretty gaping hole in your lore. The Word Bearers had 50,000 of the galaxy's best soldiers, and a host of lesser minions in the form of cultists and daemons, striking from ambush. The Ultramarines had 200,000 of the galaxy's best troops, and their Primarch, one of the greatest generals in the sphere of human history, as well as their own host of lesser minions in the form of PDF. Where's this amazing numerical advantage? In terms of Legionaries, the Ultramarines had 4 for every 1 Word Bearer, and the Word Bearers had no primarch.

 

Calth was a huge gamble for the Word Bearers. Their primarch is elsewhere, doing other things, along with half of their Legion. They wanted to win, absolutely. They craved that victory, as we'll see more of in the future. With the death of Calth's sun, you can even argue they did win, as that was pretty much all Erebus seems to have wanted, and the Ultramarines didn't manage to stop that.

 

See? Balanced views make much more sense. I have no particular grudge against the Ultramarines (I like them a whole bunch, as it happens - and would love to write about them, and make them look different to how they're often portrayed) and nor do I feel the need to write the Word Bearers as victorious to make any other Legion look good (if I needed that, I'd not have shown the Word Bearers at their weakest point, and often beaten or humiliated). But I can come at this from both angles, which is necessary for a decent perspective. You're very single-mindedly pimping one analysis over anything else, and it lacks crucial details.

[Legatus]

The Ultramarines had 200,000 of the galaxy's best troops, and their Primarch, one of the greatest generals in the sphere of human history, as well as their own host of lesser minions in the form of PDF. Where's this amazing numerical advantage? In terms of Legionaries, the Ultramarines had 4 for every 1 Word Bearer, and the Word Bearers had no primarch.

Why? Weren't the Word Bearers led by Lorgar in their efforts to attack Calth? I know the Index Astartes article does not mention Lorgar in that account. But then neither does it mention Guilliman for the defense. The Collected Visions account is the first to mention Guilliman. But it also states that Lorgar is leading the Word Bearers fleet. Why do I keep hearing that the Ultramarines had an advantage in the Battle for Calth by being led by their Primarch, while the Word Bearers are not? Both were present in the Collected Visions account, each in command of the fleet, respectively. After neither was mentioned in the Index Astartes.

Why had it been decided to remove Lorgar from the conflict in this version?

[Marshal Rohr]

They probobaly removed Lorgar from the conflict to make whatever is coming in the Butcher's Nails and Betrayer be possible. Since Guilliman was trapped on the Honor of Macragge during the battle anyway it isnt like he was commanding anyone. For most of the battle he was fighting on his 17 kilometer long flagship.

 

Alos, 17 kilometers is huge. It would take a whole day to walk from one end to the other. So when we read about the Ultras on the flagship fighting against the Daemons, they arn't just clearing an aircraft carrier, they are going from room to room in what is essentially a space borne Manhattan. He was a little busy.

[A D-B]

The Ultramarines had 200,000 of the galaxy's best troops, and their Primarch, one of the greatest generals in the sphere of human history, as well as their own host of lesser minions in the form of PDF. Where's this amazing numerical advantage? In terms of Legionaries, the Ultramarines had 4 for every 1 Word Bearer, and the Word Bearers had no primarch.

Why? Weren't the Word Bearers led by Lorgar in their efforts to attack Calth? I know the Index Astartes article does not mention Lorgar in that account. But then neither does it mention Guilliman for the defense. The Collected Visions account is the first to mention Guilliman. But it also states that Lorgar is leading the Word Bearers fleet. Why do I keep hearing that the Ultramarines had an advantage in the Battle for Calth by being led by their Primarch, while the Word Bearers are not? Both were present in the Collected Visions account, each in command of the fleet, respectively. After neither was mentioned in the Index Astartes.

Why had it been decided to remove Lorgar from the conflict in this version?

 

Boing, the bold bit:

 

IIRC it was A D-B who had suggested a while ago that the big advantage of the Ultramarines was that "Guilliman was there but Lorga wasn't", but really the situation was the same for the Ultramarines and the Word Bearers. Primarch directing the fleet...

It was definitely one of the big advantages. There's every chance it would've gone differently had Lorgar been there. Calth was a huge gamble for the Word Bearers, overall.

I am curious, since in the Collected Visions description Lorgar had been there, was there any particular reason why Dan Abnett or the Horus Heresy team decided to write him out of the battle?

 

Even in the IA article, it's kinda vague; there's stuff about Lorgar being in the system, or in Ultramar in general - which in turn is balanced by the equally vague stuff in Collected Visions, and so on. We made a list of where all the primarchs were at what times, across various sources, and basically chose which versions to go with. It took a while. There's very little changed, as Lorgar is still in Ultramar, as noted. He's still leading his Legion's overall attack in Ultramar, as well.

 

One of the main aims of the Heresy series in the future is to show the Signus Primes and Calths that no one has ever seen before. As someone with a lot of love for the lore, there are still times when you have to step back and see how some of it was written by game designers with no real sense of all this jazz needing to form a narrative, or a need to make stuff link up and make sense within a larger scheme. The Ultramarines' defining battle happening in the first year of a 7-year war, f'rex, is something that's just not going to play out, I'm almost certain of it. They've got a lot more stuff to do yet.

 

As I said before, Calth isn't the be-all and end-all of the Ultramarines' involvement in the Heresy anymore. It's just something that happened to them in the first year of a seven-year war. The old lore was conflicting and vague. We made a long list of where the primarchs were at what point, through the various conflicting sources, and what else they could be doing in the greater scheme of things.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Question: is Sgt. Thiel an Ultramarine or one of those hypothetical 'missing legion incorporated' legionnaires?

[Arkangilos]

Question: is Sgt. Thiel an Ultramarine or one of those hypothetical 'missing legion incorporated' legionnaires?

 

That never actually happened. The "legions being incorporated into the Ultramarines" was just a "myth/legend" of the Word Bearers who were angry.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Question: is Sgt. Thiel an Ultramarine or one of those hypothetical 'missing legion incorporated' legionnaires?

 

That never actually happened. The "legions being incorporated into the Ultramarines" was just a "myth/legend" of the Word Bearers who were angry.

 

 

Yea, A-DB said that the comment was gossip, and if he had known the full impact of the sentence, he may not have included it.

 

WLK

[Apothecary Vaddon]

I'm glad I put in that 'hypothetical'.

[Legatus]

We made a list of where all the primarchs were at what times, across various sources, and basically chose which versions to go with.

Fair enough. Even I do not know all of the sources (inconceivable as that may seem), so when they are sources explaining that Lorgar was somewhere else, then I can understand that.

 

 

The Ultramarines' defining battle happening in the first year of a 7-year war, f'rex, is something that's just not going to play out

Personally, I would have gone with the Ultramarines not getting astropathic messages for six years and then being attacked by the Word Bearers, in order to accommodate the twenty years of lore since 2nd Edition. But then I would also have gone with ten thousand strong Legions, so who am I to talk.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Unfortunately, a lot of the old lore is getting shot up with newer stuff repeatedly. Whether that's good or bad, is up to each of us to decide.

[Pavement Artist]

But as an Ultramarines fan, it wouldn't bother you that they would have essentially twiddled their thumbs for the whole of this war? The lore you're referring to mainly consists of Codices that as a rule, give the broader view of things. As much as the people who have been playing the game for a considerable amount of time- such as your good self, hold this background in reverential terms, alot of it simply doesn't gel that well when you begin converting it into novel form.

 

Surely its more preferable to make slight alterations to Calth AND have a ton more heroic actions from the boys in cobalt, rather than have them do bugger all?