Know No Fear (spoilers past first few posts)

[Apothecary Vaddon]

I think AD-B touches on this - Codices weren't made with novelization and fluff accuracy in mind. They were made to accommodate a universe within which you could play TT with, and that's pretty contrasting in comparison to novels, plot, and chronological accuracy.

[b1soul]

You could even argue that one Legion was massively, rapidly expanding and conquering to prepare for a war only they knew was coming (which is true) and that the Ultramarines were already focusing on their roles as leaders after the Great Crusade, rather than as conquerors.

The Word Bearers were an average-sized legion before bolstering their numbers in preparation for the Heresy, no?

 

ADB, roughly how long did it take the Word Bearers to expand from 100,000 to 150,000 in anticipation of the coming war (I believe those are the correct numbers)?

That's quite a huge increase.

[Gree]

Here, you're wrong. The Word Bearers were arguably the most successful Legion for the entire last quarter of the Great Crusade. Maybe the Ultramarines were essentially on garrison duty all that time? You don't know how much the Ultramarines expanded at that point. You don't know the details of how many worlds the Word Bearers brought into the fold. You're assuming, and you know the lame old saying about what happens when you assume. You could even argue that one Legion was massively, rapidly expanding and conquering to prepare for a war only they knew was coming (which is true) and that the Ultramarines were already focusing on their roles as leaders after the Great Crusade, rather than as conquerors. In that light, who looks less ready and experienced now? The zealous crusader with 50 years of the most vicious bloodshed under his belt, or the guy who's spent 50 years sitting on his laurels overseeing the perfect, peaceful empire?

 

As an Ultramarine fan I don’t really like the idea that the Ultramarines slowed down and did nothing because that fuels the misconception that ‘’Guilliman didn’t do any real work and built an Empire while his brothers fought in the Great Crusade!’’ that I hear from people on many forums about the Ultramarines.

 

The fact that a needless retcon of 500 worlds that the Ultramarines control supports that.

[A D-B]

Here, you're wrong. The Word Bearers were arguably the most successful Legion for the entire last quarter of the Great Crusade. Maybe the Ultramarines were essentially on garrison duty all that time? You don't know how much the Ultramarines expanded at that point. You don't know the details of how many worlds the Word Bearers brought into the fold. You're assuming, and you know the lame old saying about what happens when you assume. You could even argue that one Legion was massively, rapidly expanding and conquering to prepare for a war only they knew was coming (which is true) and that the Ultramarines were already focusing on their roles as leaders after the Great Crusade, rather than as conquerors. In that light, who looks less ready and experienced now? The zealous crusader with 50 years of the most vicious bloodshed under his belt, or the guy who's spent 50 years sitting on his laurels overseeing the perfect, peaceful empire?

 

As an Ultramarine fan I don’t really like the idea that the Ultramarines slowed down and did nothing because that fuels the misconception that ‘’Guilliman didn’t do any real work and built an Empire while his brothers fought in the Great Crusade!’’ that I hear from people on many forums about the Ultramarines.

 

The fact that a needless retcon of 500 worlds that the Ultramarines control supports that.

 

You're missing the point. That was an example to show that VS was assuming, and not considering all angles in his very narrow viewpoint. It wasn't a statement of factual things that happened; just another slice of endless possibility. I'm not sure I really understand what you're saying, given that with an extra seven years of warfare, it's now obvious the Ultramarines will do a great deal more than ever before, rather than "just not get there in time", as with what happened in the past.

[Gree]

Here, you're wrong. The Word Bearers were arguably the most successful Legion for the entire last quarter of the Great Crusade. Maybe the Ultramarines were essentially on garrison duty all that time? You don't know how much the Ultramarines expanded at that point. You don't know the details of how many worlds the Word Bearers brought into the fold. You're assuming, and you know the lame old saying about what happens when you assume. You could even argue that one Legion was massively, rapidly expanding and conquering to prepare for a war only they knew was coming (which is true) and that the Ultramarines were already focusing on their roles as leaders after the Great Crusade, rather than as conquerors. In that light, who looks less ready and experienced now? The zealous crusader with 50 years of the most vicious bloodshed under his belt, or the guy who's spent 50 years sitting on his laurels overseeing the perfect, peaceful empire?

 

As an Ultramarine fan I don’t really like the idea that the Ultramarines slowed down and did nothing because that fuels the misconception that ‘’Guilliman didn’t do any real work and built an Empire while his brothers fought in the Great Crusade!’’ that I hear from people on many forums about the Ultramarines.

 

The fact that a needless retcon of 500 worlds that the Ultramarines control supports that.

 

You're missing the point. That was an example to show that VS was assuming, and not considering all angles in his very narrow viewpoint. It wasn't a statement of factual things that happened; just another slice of endless possibility. I'm not sure I really understand what you're saying, given that with an extra seven years of warfare, it's now obvious the Ultramarines will do a great deal more than ever before, rather than "just not get there in time", as with what happened in the past.

 

What I’m trying to say is that I’ve often heard accusations that the Ultramarines went off building their own personal Empire during the Great Crusade while everybody else fought for the Emperor. Obviously a ludicrous statement, but I’m saying that the possibility that they did so does not sit well for me. The 500 worlds retcon does not help such matters for me.

[A D-B]

You could even argue that one Legion was massively, rapidly expanding and conquering to prepare for a war only they knew was coming (which is true) and that the Ultramarines were already focusing on their roles as leaders after the Great Crusade, rather than as conquerors.

The Word Bearers were an average-sized legion before bolstering their numbers in preparation for the Heresy, no?

 

ADB, roughly how long did it take the Word Bearers to expand from 100,000 to 150,000 in anticipation of the coming war (I believe those are the correct numbers)?

That's quite a huge increase.

 

It's pretty big, yep, but not that huge given what they were doing. They were aggressively recruiting over 50 years, knowing full well what was coming, while conquering countless worlds at an extremely rapid rate.

 

Part of the problem people are having with this is that they see "A Legion" as being this unified whole of 100,000 warriors, hundreds of ships, and several Titan Legions and Aimperial Army regiments that all hangs out together in a big bulk. There were something like 60,000 exploratory fleets in the Great Crusade. The Legions were broken up for the duration of the conquest, to various degrees. Many Marines will have gone decades without seeing their primarchs.

 

One army flying around and recruiting might take a while. 2,000 armies doing it would take considerably less time.

[A D-B]

Here, you're wrong. The Word Bearers were arguably the most successful Legion for the entire last quarter of the Great Crusade. Maybe the Ultramarines were essentially on garrison duty all that time? You don't know how much the Ultramarines expanded at that point. You don't know the details of how many worlds the Word Bearers brought into the fold. You're assuming, and you know the lame old saying about what happens when you assume. You could even argue that one Legion was massively, rapidly expanding and conquering to prepare for a war only they knew was coming (which is true) and that the Ultramarines were already focusing on their roles as leaders after the Great Crusade, rather than as conquerors. In that light, who looks less ready and experienced now? The zealous crusader with 50 years of the most vicious bloodshed under his belt, or the guy who's spent 50 years sitting on his laurels overseeing the perfect, peaceful empire?

 

As an Ultramarine fan I don’t really like the idea that the Ultramarines slowed down and did nothing because that fuels the misconception that ‘’Guilliman didn’t do any real work and built an Empire while his brothers fought in the Great Crusade!’’ that I hear from people on many forums about the Ultramarines.

 

The fact that a needless retcon of 500 worlds that the Ultramarines control supports that.

 

You're missing the point. That was an example to show that VS was assuming, and not considering all angles in his very narrow viewpoint. It wasn't a statement of factual things that happened; just another slice of endless possibility. I'm not sure I really understand what you're saying, given that with an extra seven years of warfare, it's now obvious the Ultramarines will do a great deal more than ever before, rather than "just not get there in time", as with what happened in the past.

 

What I’m trying to say is that I’ve often heard accusations that the Ultramarines went off building their own personal Empire during the Great Crusade while everybody else fought for the Emperor. Obviously a ludicrous statement, but I’m saying that the possibility that they did so does not sit well for me. The 500 worlds retcon does not help such matters for me.

 

Oh! Sorry, Gree, I was miles off.

 

Naw, dude, I genuinely think you're safe. No one's using the 7 years to expand any Legion into sucking more than they ever did before. The Ultramarines especially are targeted by the team as "Man, these guys need to do much more in the war."

 

Perhaps interestingly, and perhaps boringly, there's a lot of love for the Ultras around the HH table. Everyone wants them to look great.

[Gree]

It's pretty big, yep, but not that huge given what they were doing. They were aggressively recruiting over 50 years, knowing full well what was coming, while conquering countless worlds at an extremely rapid rate.

 

Part of the problem people are having with this is that they see "A Legion" as being this unified whole of 100,000 warriors, hundreds of ships, and several Titan Legions and Aimperial Army regiments that all hangs out together in a big bulk. There were something like 60,000 exploratory fleets in the Great Crusade. The Legions were broken up for the duration of the conquest, to various degrees. Many Marines will have gone decades without seeing their primarchs.

 

One army flying around and recruiting might take a while. 2,000 armies doing it would take considerably less time.

 

I find this quite interesting actually, as it offers a whole new look at the breaking of the Legions into chapters. If most Legions were broken up to some degree then that makes Guilliman’s reforms look less extreme.

 

EDIT:

 

Oh! Sorry, Gree, I was miles off.

 

Naw, dude, I genuinely think you're safe. No one's using the 7 years to expand any Legion into sucking more than they ever did before. The Ultramarines especially are targeted by the team as "Man, these guys need to do much more in the war."

 

Perhaps interestingly, and perhaps boringly, there's a lot of love for the Ultras around the HH table. Everyone wants them to look great.

 

Well thanks for the information. At this point it seems like the previous fluff of the Ultramarines being largely untouched by the Heresy has been chucked out the window. (If the huge losses at Calth did not prove that)

 

We will be getting actual battles from the Ultramarines during the Heresy then?

[Legatus]

But as an Ultramarines fan, it wouldn't bother you that they would have essentially twiddled their thumbs for the whole of this war?

I cannot express the orders of magnitude by which I prefer "they did not know what was going on and only learned about it at the very end" over "they knew exactly what was going on but didn't do anything anyway". (At least for the first two years into the war.)

[Gree]

But as an Ultramarines fan, it wouldn't bother you that they would have essentially twiddled their thumbs for the whole of this war?

I cannot express the orders of magnitude by which I prefer "they did not know what was going on and only learned about it at the very end" over "they knew exactly what was going on but didn't do anything anyway". (At least for the first two years into the war.)

 

Well, at the very least Know No Fear provides reasons for their inactivity.

[Legatus]

Well, at least now they cannot be accused of purposefully staying out of the war. But now they had to wait and sit out several years, while being aware of what was going on, as opposed to going about their business while being unaware of what was happening at the other end of the galaxy.

[JamesI]

Again this topic is being closed pending review.