Callidus assassin query

[Seahawk]

So here's what came up. The Callidus came in and he targeted a unit that was in a transport. Now, first can the Callidus do that? Here's what Polymorphine says:

 

"When the Callidus Assassin arrives from reserve, choose an enemy unit. The chose unit immediately takes D6 Strength 4 AP 2 hits."

 

There's no limitation or restriction on the location of the target unit, unless it's in the BRB or something.

 

Second, if he can target a unit in a vehicle, does it get cover saves? Does it take any wounds?

[angry man]

you shouldnt be able to target a unit in a transport because they arent on the board

 

Q: Can an embarked unit ever be the target of enemy

shooting? (p67)

A: No. Only the transport vehicle can be hit.

from the BRB FAQ. i know that the callidus attack isnt strictly shooting though...

 

either way, IMO the vehicle can be the target unit, but not a unit within it

 

AM

[Leonaides]

calidus isn't targeting- its choosing. You could choose a unit still in reserve if you wanted...

[angry man]

calidus isn't targeting- its choosing. You could choose a unit still in reserve if you wanted...

and then place within 3" of them?? good one

[Gentlemanloser]

Would the unit embarked on the transport get a cover save?

 

I'm not sure you can choose an embarked unit anyway, as they aren't 'on the board' so to speak.

[Squirrelloid]

IMO, you can choose any unit, there's no problem resolving d6 hits of given strength and AP against them. And the rules are pretty open ended on who you can choose.

 

However, if you have to set up within x" of the unit you chose, and that unit isn't on the table, then the callidus assassin cannot be deployed and is basically killed immediately. (No longer 'in reserve' to come in again, so it never gets another chance to hit the table - which means it counts as dead at the end of the game). Ie, there is no position on the table within x" of a unit in a transport or in reserves, so no deployment is possible.

 

There's no directionality of the shot, and units not on the table cannot be in area terrain (by definition - they aren't on the table to be in area terrain in teh first place!), so they could never take a cover save against it.

[Gentlemanloser]

What happens when the embarked units fails thier moral test form the Callidus' attack?

[Squirrelloid]

What happens when the embarked units fails thier moral test form the Callidus' attack?

 

The Callidus attack happens when it arrives from reserve, which is during the movement phase.

 

Ok, in 4th edition you only ever took morale tests for casualties when they occurred during the shooting phase (which is why this never caused problems in 4th edition). That rule has been amended in 5th edition - its now 25% in any phase so long as they weren't close combat attacks...

 

Ok, so they take and fail a morale test. They roll to move back....

 

Weirdness:

They are not on the table. Therefore, moving 2d6" is the same as not moving 2d6" - they have no position to measure from. The statement "They have fallen back 2d6"." is vacuously true. They have also fallen back 0", 32", and 297". Because they have no position, any statement which assumes a position for them is vacuously true.

 

So they 'fall back', during which nothing substantive happens because they aren't on the table. However, broken squads would remain broken should they ever get out of the transport. And presumably you would need to roll to regroup as normal for them if they still can.

[Gentlemanloser]

If they're not on the table, how can you attack them?

[angry man]

Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting attacks? (p50)

A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP value)...

whilst i understand that strictly speaking, this only applies to psychic shooting, i think it does help us to determine that things with the profile of a ranged weapon counts as shooting

 

a firing unit can choose a single enemy unit that is not locked in combat as its target, and may not split its fire amongst different target

choose=target

 

Q: Can an embarked unit ever be the target of enemy

shooting? (p67)

A: No. Only the transport vehicle can be hit.

 

units in/on transports are not able to be targetted by shooting, or even non-shooting psychic powers

Q: Can psychic powers be used on a unit embarked on a transport? (p50)

A: For simplicity’s sake, the answer has to be a firm ‘No, unless the psyker himself is in the unit being transported’

 

It doesnt make sense for an embarked unit to be able to be targetted. there isnt even a game mechanic for them taking/failing morale checks

 

AM

[thade]

Doom of Malen'tai all over again? ;)

 

DoM couldn't do it, even before the FAQ clearing it up; I see no reason the same rational (pre-FAQ, it's not a psychic power of course) wouldn't apply here. The unit in the transport can't be targeted. It's not on the table.

 

ADDENDUM: All of the relevant rules are quoted above. It's not clear whether the Callidus's opening "attack" is a type of shooting or not. Always safest (and most polite) to hedge assumptions such that strength is lost, not gained.

 

I could see her "Having been masquerading as one of them, hiding in the transport the entire time," but sans FAQ I can't really see clear to allowing it now.

[Seahawk]

Just to clear up misconceptions...

 

If they're not on the table, how can you attack them?

But they are on the table. The models themselves may not be, but the unit still is, since it "temporarily co-exists" with the transport (BRB FAQ). How could they shoot, use psychic powers, capture objectives, or do anything else if they are not on the table? It's the same plane of non-existence as units in Reserve, and units there certainly can't do squat (woops, said squat; army release is pushed back by another 5 years). Units embarked in transports on the table are in transports that are on the table, and so they are too.

 

I'm inclined to agree that, for purposes of what it is, it's a Ranged attack, despite not being explicitly labeled as such. It has an AP value, rather than (ignores armor saves).

 

I remember a similar question coming up before as to whether a unit in Area Terrain gets a cover save against it, and I think we agreed with it being allowed because of the weapon profile. Thus, when connecting it to the FAQ about Ranged attacks, the Callidus is a no-go against a unit in a transport.

 

Seems pretty conclusive to me.

[Gentlemanloser]

If they're on the table, and co-exist with thier transport, then shooting or assaulting the transport should also shoot or assault the unit.

 

But it doesn't.

 

You can't shoot, assault or effect the unit in any way, until they are physically placed on the table.

 

That the unit can do stuff while not on the table is a different issue. ;)

 

But;

 

They are not on the table.

 

If they are on the table, then how do the fall back when they fail a moral test?

 

Edit: I think what I'm trying to say is on table/off table distinctions don't work. The unit is embarked. That's it. It's allowed to do stuff (Shoot if fire points, use abilities/wargear like homers), and it can't be effected in return (You can't target them, can't shoot them, can't assult them, etc).

 

Embarked is like temporary invulnerability.

 

You have to deal with the 'on table' transport before you can do anything to the embarked unit.

[Seahawk]

Exactly, they are still on the table. Otherwise, they couldn't shoot, capture objectives, etc...

 

Temporary invulnerability is a nice way to put it.

[breng77]

Bottom line is that GW has been clear in the path that things cannot effect units embarked in vehicles (with the exception of a psyker embarked in said vehicle.) so it is safe to assume the same would hold true in this instance (cannot be chosen/targeted). As for targeting units in reserve....really....you cannot place the Callidus within 3" so you cannot target them. Sometimes I think people need to stop trying to game the rules, and start using some common sense, I know its hard when the rules are vague, but really if it sounds super cheesey you are better off assuming that that is not how it works, and you will be safe more often than not.

 

Doom of Malanti anyone

Necron Death Ray

The Shunt move during scout movement

the list goes on

 

everyone knew how these would eventually be ruled and were trying to power game by intentionally ignoring common sense.

[Squirrelloid]

Bottom line is that GW has been clear in the path that things cannot effect units embarked in vehicles (with the exception of a psyker embarked in said vehicle.) so it is safe to assume the same would hold true in this instance (cannot be chosen/targeted). As for targeting units in reserve....really....you cannot place the Callidus within 3" so you cannot target them. Sometimes I think people need to stop trying to game the rules, and start using some common sense, I know its hard when the rules are vague, but really if it sounds super cheesey you are better off assuming that that is not how it works, and you will be safe more often than not.

 

Doom of Malanti anyone

Necron Death Ray

The Shunt move during scout movement

the list goes on

 

everyone knew how these would eventually be ruled and were trying to power game by intentionally ignoring common sense.

 

I think its obviously one of two things:

-Cannot target units in vehicles/reserves because you can't place within 3" of the targetted unit.

-Can target units in vehicles/reserves, but because you can't place within 3" the assassin immediately becomes a casualty after resolving the hits. (no legal placement -> not placed -> never on table by end of game)

 

The second is actually a literal interpretation of the rules. The first is more in line with other abilities, but does not adhere to the wording of the rules as written.

[breng77]

The first fully adheres to the rules as written. This is another case of 40k being a permissive rule set. Unless it says you can do something (target units in vehicles/reserve) you cannot. Just because it does not say, choose a non-embarked unit presently on the table, does not make the ability to do so RAW. I think sometimes one problem with GW rules is that they write them assuming that people have enough intelligence to know you cannot do certain things.

 

also if you could effect a unit in a vehicle you could make the argument that you place within 3" of the vehicle, as for measuring distances from a vehicle(or area effects from embarked units) you measure from the hull.

[Spacefrisian]

It has an AP value, that alone just screams shooting attack. So going by that no, a unit/ model inside cannot be the target of such type of attack.