What Are Competitive Choices with Pedro/C:SM?

[Drain]

Hi, just wondering what the best and competitive choices are for a Codex: Space Marines army are when using Pedro Kantor for one of your HQ choices. I'm interested in a Crimson Fists army and wanted to use the Chapter Master but still be capable at tournaments.

[Ming]

Pedro is one of the best values as a HQ choice in the marine codex.

 

The problem is basically keeping him alive, because in death most of his value goes away. As an IC he can lose his wounds quick, since all of his CC attacks are at I-1, and he is only T4 (like everyone else). He needs a bodyguard, and a Rhino, for best use. And he never gets out of the ride unless he has to. Pedro is best riding around your lines yelling at everyone to fight harder, while he pops off shots with his special bolter.

 

His primary function is to inspire nearby units in assault, and make your army stubborn, one means you may win CC with more attacks; the other means you are less likely to run away if you lose CC.

 

Everything else is secondary (sternguard as scoring, no more choosing to fail morale from shooting casualties, etc).

 

My blog here at B&C has a ton of battle reports and tactical discussions where he dies or lives, different point sizes. Of course I use my own collection of minis, which could greatly benefit from better preds and dreads. Anyone with deeper pockets could take the basic pedro list and make it much better with direct application of $$.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

Sternguard are very competitive even before Pedro makes them Scoring. They are still Elite, have the Elite price tag but now they can hold an objective.

 

Land Speeders have always been Competitive from what I have read. The best two are the Heavy Flamer/Multi-Melta and the Typhoon ones.

 

Devastors are I think the best of the Heavy Support but some say Autocannon/Heavy Bolter Predators are better. I have had great experience with Thunderfire Cannons and Land Raiders. (Nothing like a Tatical Squad sitting in a normal Land Raider on an Objective)

 

Tatical Squads are the best Troop wise for C:SM but some have had great experiences with Scouts.

[DarkGuard]

I've got a small section on Pedro and Sternguard in my Sternguard analysis, which I believe I should be updating with something that I can't quite remember at the moment, hopefully it'll come to me.

 

Other than that, Pedro makes armies that want to do combat more viable, so Assault Terminators, Assault squads, even Tactical squads and Sternguard squads get a boost. As you're now Stubborn and can't break from combat power fists are very useful to do lots of casualties, especially with your increased attacks. Dreads also get more attacks for combat but compete with Sternguard, which means you'll want to be using Typhoons and combi-preds for your anti-tank, alongside fast melta platforms and melta weapons on infantry.

 

If you can though Assault Terminators in a Raider, perhaps with Pedro inside, will help spread his +1A buff further, and will give you a hard hitting unit with more attacks than usual. Try your best to hide Pedro in a vehicle, you don't want him dying, not with +1A bubble.

[ak-73]

Hi, just wondering what the best and competitive choices are for a Codex: Space Marines army are when using Pedro Kantor for one of your HQ choices. I'm interested in a Crimson Fists army and wanted to use the Chapter Master but still be capable at tournaments.

 

Pedro is generally considered a bit over-costed. Chapter Masters are already over-costed, scoring Sternguards is nice but not nearly as good as making them Troops would be. Losing Combat Tactics for Stubborn isn't an OMG great swap. His best feature is inspiring presence (and his Storm Bolter is quite helpful too against infantry).

 

Still if you bring Pedro, you might not want to bring another HQ under 2,000. This is another drawback of Pedro: you either lose psychic support or you invest too heavily in HQ.

Anyway, since you bring Pedro you probably want to bring Sternguards. Which means you have less Rifleman Dreads, which means you probably don't play like competitive mechanized marines do. Sternguards are great but they basically need a screen of Tacticals. Sure they have more attacks, especially near Pedro but they are still on the losing end against enemy melee specialists. Tacticals help to keep your SG out of melee.

Plus Tacticals benefit from Kantor's buff more due to numbers: 6 SG with kantor have 24 attacks on the charge. 10 Tacticals have 31. And they only lose 2 Attacks per casualty in later rounds. SG lose 3 attacks.

 

To make it clear: Kantor doesn't make vanillas good in melee. You still want to win through shooting. Kantor just makes it harder for enemies to utilize their melee skills if you can inflict casualties on them and wear them down. Kantor means the enemy better goes first and has the number of attacks or the power weapons to kill your Tacticals before they can start to swing back. He makes your marines a bit more Grey Hunters-like. Crimson Hunters, if you prefer.

 

Basically there is 2 strategies for you:

1. Push into midfield. Give your SG MM and HF, screen them with Tacticals in Rhino spam (you want to combat squad those Tacticals). Give those Tacticals melta weapons galore, you don't fear most hordes. Support them with Rifleman Dreads, Dakka Preds and Land Speeders or MM Attack Bikes.

2. Create a backfield army who takes a few turn of shooting first before getting into midfield. In that case: pretty much the same but more Lascannons and ML than melta weapons. Your Fast Attack section must contain some fast melta (MM Attack Bikes or MM/HF speeders). You may or may not want to have a counter-assault unit. Thundernators in a LR Phobos or Honor Guard in a Razorback. Thundernators are more useful against tough enemies but cost more. HG are better against hordes but you should be able to handle those otherwise too. They are less expensive due to no LR though. Kantor doesn't ride with the counter-assault element, he rides behind them. He's in a Rhino from which he can call Orbital Bombardment.

 

In any case Tacticals spam also has the advantage that they are harder to remove from an obstacle through melee late game.

 

 

Not that I am a great competitive player but that seems to be what it's like from my pov.

 

 

Alex

[DarkGuard]

ak-73, that's a couple of threads now where you've gone on about Riflemen being the be-all and end-all of Marine competitive gaming. It's inaccurate and not even true. Rifleman are a competitive choice but not having them in an army will not make your army uncompetitive. I've not used them for ages now, I don't like how limiting S7 is vs S8 (ie. missile launchers), and haven't found that I've wanted them. They're a good choice, but playing competitive Marines doesn't mean you have to take Rifleman. It's like the fallacy that people believe competitive Marines have to take Vulkan, a good choice, but not the only competitive choice in the Codex.

[DerekLee688]

Don't overlook Pedro's ability to take a unit of Honor Guard. Sternguard/vanilla Tac. marines benefit nicely from Pedro's ability, but lets face it, it was meant for the Honor guard. You did say you wanted Pedro, not just Pedro + sternguard.

 

Once upon a time the Rifleman was end all/be all to C:SM anti-mech, but that is old thinking now. Since then, GK's have blessed hull everything and better Riflemen(S:8 psy-rounds & blessed hull & possibility to be Scoring with right HQ?) Necrons have so many more vehicles with living metal. IG have AV:12 gunship transports, which S:7 doesn't do that hot against. These days it's S:8 or better, meaning that Fast attack is where you get your anti-tank, Typhoons, Typhoons with MM's, HF/MM land speeders, MM-attack bike squads, bike squads with combi-melta+ 2xmelta's + MM-attack bike, or a land speeder storm with MM + scouts with PF/combi-melta/Melta bombs.

 

You can get a bike captain to make your troops T(5), fast, and anti-tank, 185pts. gives the unit 4 melta shots for a turn, then 3 after. That leaves Pedro to command the ground troops(sternguard/honorguard) in rhino's.

[ak-73]

ak-73, that's a couple of threads now where you've gone on about Riflemen being the be-all and end-all of Marine competitive gaming. It's inaccurate and not even true. Rifleman are a competitive choice but not having them in an army will not make your army uncompetitive. I've not used them for ages now, I don't like how limiting S7 is vs S8 (ie. missile launchers), and haven't found that I've wanted them. They're a good choice, but playing competitive Marines doesn't mean you have to take Rifleman. It's like the fallacy that people believe competitive Marines have to take Vulkan, a good choice, but not the only competitive choice in the Codex.

 

"Which means you have less Rifleman Dreads, which means you probably don't play like competitive mechanized marines do."

I don't read an implication that every other configuration is uncompetitive here. Do you?

 

There is a reason why Rifleman Dread spam + Dakka Pred spam is dangerous. You have lots of targets that require AT weaponry to kill. Sternguards have less strategical value than Rifleman Dreads because they are essentially expensive non-too-durable anti-infantry units which are nice but not necessarily required.

 

I happen to think that Rifleman Dread + Dakka Pred spam is very good and better than Sternguard lists. Can Sternguard lists be competitive? Yes. Can they beat Rifleman lists? Yes. Do I consider Rifleman lists to be more competitive though? Yes.

 

Don't overlook Pedro's ability to take a unit of Honor Guard. Sternguard/vanilla Tac. marines benefit nicely from Pedro's ability, but lets face it, it was meant for the Honor guard. You did say you wanted Pedro, not just Pedro + sternguard.

 

Once upon a time the Rifleman was end all/be all to C:SM anti-mech, but that is old thinking now. Since then, GK's have blessed hull everything and better Riflemen(S:8 psy-rounds & blessed hull & possibility to be Scoring with right HQ?) Necrons have so many more vehicles with living metal. IG have AV:12 gunship transports, which S:7 doesn't do that hot against. These days it's S:8 or better, meaning that Fast attack is where you get your anti-tank, Typhoons, Typhoons with MM's, HF/MM land speeders, MM-attack bike squads, bike squads with combi-melta+ 2xmelta's + MM-attack bike, or a land speeder storm with MM + scouts with PF/combi-melta/Melta bombs.

 

You can get a bike captain to make your troops T(5), fast, and anti-tank, 185pts. gives the unit 4 melta shots for a turn, then 3 after. That leaves Pedro to command the ground troops(sternguard/honorguard) in rhino's.

 

Honor Guard often don't need Pedro's help. Occasionally it's good to have him nearby though. Still Thundernators are better against MCs, for example.

S7 is still good. You can still stop Razorbacks, Ravagers, Vindicators/predators (sideshots) and a lot of what IG can bring on the table.

What your S7 spam has a consequence is a necessity to bring some real anti-tank in Troops and FA. MM/LC Tacticals, LasPlas Razorbacks, MM Attack Bikes or MM/HF Speeders. Especially against Crons, once you get a penetrating hit, your S7 becomes relevant again.

 

Grey Knights have a problem with ranged anti-tank; they don't want to stay at range anyway.

 

Alex

[DarkGuard]

ak-73, that's a couple of threads now where you've gone on about Riflemen being the be-all and end-all of Marine competitive gaming. It's inaccurate and not even true. Rifleman are a competitive choice but not having them in an army will not make your army uncompetitive. I've not used them for ages now, I don't like how limiting S7 is vs S8 (ie. missile launchers), and haven't found that I've wanted them. They're a good choice, but playing competitive Marines doesn't mean you have to take Rifleman. It's like the fallacy that people believe competitive Marines have to take Vulkan, a good choice, but not the only competitive choice in the Codex.

 

"Which means you have less Rifleman Dreads, which means you probably don't play like competitive mechanized marines do."

I don't read an implication that every other configuration is uncompetitive here. Do you?

 

There is a reason why Rifleman Dread spam + Dakka Pred spam is dangerous. You have lots of targets that require AT weaponry to kill. Sternguards have less strategical value than Rifleman Dreads because they are essentially expensive non-too-durable anti-infantry units which are nice but not necessarily required.

 

I happen to think that Rifleman Dread + Dakka Pred spam is very good and better than Sternguard lists. Can Sternguard lists be competitive? Yes. Can they beat Rifleman lists? Yes. Do I consider Rifleman lists to be more competitive though? Yes.

 

Ah I see now the fascination behind Rifleman Dreads and Dakka Pred spam. I've never been a massive fan of Pred, I'm more of a Vindy person, my apologies. Still I feel that Rifleman are more of a shade of themselves, and am starting to take a few more akin to that of DerekLee688's, that S7 isn't so great anymore. With Storm Ravens, Necrons etc S8 is a bit better, and with missile launchers you have better ability to take down hordes with frag missiles much better than autocannons, while also being able to handle MEQ more efficiently. So dare I say it Typhoons, combi-preds (with their lascannons), and maybe even ML Devs may be starting to shade Rifleman, but depending on the area they can still be a very effective choice, and always will be in this current mech orientated edition of 40K.

[ak-73]

As I said: it requires sufficient real anti-tank weaponry elsewhere. Luckily you can have that with melta-spamming tacticals. S8 isn't good against Necron AV 13 spam. Even Lascannons aren't awesome, you'll need a lot of either. Driving up multi-meltas and melta hunters is scary though. Having S7 suppression fire weapons is not enough. But having enough S7 suppression fire and S8 melta weapons allows for division of labour, if things go according plan.

 

Alex

[Ming]

I'd have to agree with AK-73. From a competitve list standpount having more Melta is an increasing priority, with the means to get in the sweet-spot range, which may mean attack bikes. MM attack bikes can be bought as 3 for the price of a dread or so and cannot be shaken or stunned (just killed). Easier to hid behind things for cover, etc. I'm slowly investing in more of them.

 

I'd have to add that attack bikes (on topic of the OP) have the added benefit of being able to hit back in HTH, as compared to landspeeders, so they can also benefit from Pedro better. Just remember that I'm not using the attack bikes to assault, but I do hate it when a MM/HF landspeeder gets immobile and then gets charged. I'd rather have 2-3 attacks at I-4 than none.

 

So Attack bikes and dreads are a far better choice perhaps than speeders and preds.

[Stormshadow]

In my opinion and (and experience), Terminators and MM attack bikes are the best by in any Space Marine codex. I am a DH/GK player at hart and used to always be outnumbered, and so I have developed to stiles of playing. Ether with units so hard to kill and so effective that even if only part of the unit survives, that is still enough for them to fulfill their objective, the other stile of playing is with units so aggressive and effective that they can reliably kill large chunks of my opponents army in one turn giving me a huge points lead to offset the lesser model count.

 

You cannot buy less than 5 terminators for less than 200pts. Every other squad in the codex can be bought at a lesser price, but will be more expensive than Terminators when upgraded to be able to full fill the same role as them. A vanguard with lightning claws - 50pts, A vanguard with Thunder hammer /storm shield – 65pts, a veteran with Power Fist and storm bolter 55 pts. What I mean to say is as long as you are trying to match the terminators close combat, shooting or durability with any other infantry unit, you will be paying so much more. Do you have to have 5 Assault Terminators for 200pts to kill a 10 man tactical squad – No. If only 3 of those terminators are still alive afterwards can they then still kill another 10 man tactical squad – Yes. Vanilla Terminators can’t have melta or low AP weapons ore the reach of bikes and jump packs. But they get so much for those 40pts per model that I rely considered them a brain. I heard somewhere that the first terminators came with a Storm bolter, Power Fist and 2+, later on they received a 5++ without a point increase, then thy got the option for LC and TH/SS without a point increase, then they gave the Storm Shields steroids bumping them from 4++ some times to 3++ always, again without raising the price for Assault Terminators.

 

In short: My personal opinion is that Terminators at good and army lists with terminators are often good. Pedro makes them even better (stubborn and 3-5 attacks).

 

Attack Bikes are also very god. It is the cheapest way to carry a Multi Melta into battle, a relentless MM that can wove 12” at that. T5 two wounds and 24” turbo boost giving you a 3+ cover save also make the 50pts attack bike a real bargain. Unless you sit around shooting Grotts, it will be hard for this baby not to earn its points back.

[Cambodia]

Hey there, this is a rule of cool, dont know how it would play on field, but what i would love to have for my CF army, is a Pedro and Lysander list. $ wont allow atm

 

Pedro with a 5 man squad in a razorback (command, van or sternguard what ever suits best)

 

Lysander with 5 man Tac Terminator squad in a Land Raider(What ever model suits)

 

Might be a bit expensive on points, but in the rule of cool books it would be awesome.