Wolf Guard in the bike squad

[Niiai]

I am just wondering something.

 

What do people think about having a wolf guard on a bike joining swift claws?

 

It is about as exspensive as a good landspeeder(!) but it gives you more leadership, you can get 6 power fist attacks on the charge(!) and you can get a combi nelta that has BS4. (The regular melta and multimelta only has bs 3...)

 

However, it really is quite expensive.

[Russ Brother 92]

I think if you want to roll with it then it could be quite good :) - especially if you don't want lots of Sky Claws which are wayy overpriced, then I'd suggest that you use this as you suggest.

[vanguardwolf]

i have used swift claws(melta bombs) with a wolfpriest and a wolfguard(FW/CM) they work quite nicely.

 

dont take a attack bike, for 10 pts more have 2 targets

 

they are a rapid strike unit, taking out something big or dangerous

the WP and the WG lead the way.

the PE and fearless makes them kick ass.

but they are quite expensive

 

although using a powerfist on a ws3 model is not woth it, and the same is for the melta.

a flamer is a better option. or use the TL bolters.

 

greets

[hendrik]

how do you get to 6 attacks?

2base profile+1for charging is 3 according to my mathematics

[Niiai]

and if you have a powerfist on the swiftclaw biker that is default you can get 1 base and 2 on the charge. 6 Powerfists to the face sounds just harsh.

[Grey Mage]

Its to expensive for my tastes- the bike is twice the price of the rider! Whoever thought that was a good idea was kidding themselves.

[Araith]

Agreed. In my opinion, if you want a leader for the pack, you're best off going straight through to the HQ section. It might cost 60+ points more, but you'll end up with better leadership, significantly more killing poiwer or probably both.

[G. A. K.]

if your using bikes to begin with I see no problem with the WG there to add some punch to the unit. I think your point has been lost on the readers... you don't want to have a IC who gets singled out in CC but a tough guy who joins the unit to , as you say, double the PF attacks.

Big picture, if you want to use the bikes then I think the WG is a good add-on. especially when you take into account thier rule to charge the closest thing unless there is a WG or IC in the unit.

I don't use the bikes in general for the reasons a few have stated: low WS/BS, cost; but that doesn't mean they aren't good for what they can do, just not my style. And you don't care about my style you are asking about your options.

 

G

[Niiai]

Yes but if you say want an ekstra power weapon we are talking 63 points or 73 if you want the powerfist!

 

I mean, a landspeeder with heavy flamer and a multimelta is 70 points. A a landspeeder that looks like that is a threath in itself.

[Araith]

Aye. If WG bikes were still something in the order of 20 points like they used to be, I'd take them under consideration, but in the current codex a WG on a bike with a nice weapon is just horribly expensive. Perhaps if you're already committing all your eggs to that basket, with a maximised pack of Swiftclaws led by an HQ, you could throw him in to go all the way, but otherwise ... I just don't think it's worth the points.

[Sven Dragonfire]

I put together a Wolf Lord on a bike with a retinue of 3 WG on bikes and a seperate unit of 3 swiftclaws led by a wolfguard with powerfist under the rules of the old codex, a lot of pennies to put together (one of the reasons I refuse to allow them to just gather dust) and yes now horribly expensive in points. Though I have had some good successes with them. I dont use them often, and when I do its mostly just the Swiftclaws and the WG, but they do have some good qualities. - The extra toughness works well against most opponents, the extra movement can get you into CC quickly and the TL bolters can lay down some great fire. And they do look good on the tabletop! I know pt for pt there are much better choices in the army list. However for me it comes down to what I WANT to use on the battlefield. Some of the army lists I have used have left me massively outnumbered or with weaknesses in my lists, but I use what I fancy using for a game, its all about the enjoyment of playing not the winning, well a bit about the winning! Ok quite a lot, but variety is the spice of life,.. so they say. Go for it Niiai though use them wisely.

[7 Mile]

WG biker added to swift claw pack still only gets 1 attack on the charge as he is a model that has "joined" the pack. SO... he would get 3 PF attacks or 4 if you paid for 2 powerfists to get a 4th swing. Massively not worth your while. Any model not paid for under the swift claw entry in the army book is a joining model. Kind of makes this idea a mute point and less worth it compared to other units.

 

These guys are meant as bullet fodder with their turbo boosting attribute. Good way to give t-wolves guaranteed cover for shooting through a unit. Cheaper the unit the better, because they will be taking casualties from massed fire.

[Grey Mage]

No one was saying he got berserk charge.... cool yer jets.

 

And they dont have to be cannon fodder. Heck, at 25pts a peice theyre not very cost effective as cannon fodder either- I prefer to use my intelligently, so they make it into combat with minimal losses where they can give my grey hunters a little extra oomph to get them out of tight spots.

[7 Mile]

How else would a WG be getting 6 attacks on the charge other than if it got berserk charge and had double PF's? (still thats only 5 attacks, 2+1+2 for charging)

 

I consider them cannon fodder simply because they are really fast and high priority. Wing them out front as a screening unit for other units and they have a choice, shoot the bikes with a T5 3+ cover save or shoot the t-wolves etc running behind them. If they don't shoot the bikes you have a turn 2 assault, if they do the wolves are fast enough to also get a turn 2 assault. They are expensive but they have the potential to act as a shield for other more expensive parts of your army and do it effectively, don't forget the 4+ cover save for units behind them. Also, I don't think they are overpriced like a lot of folks do, they have their role, and they fit it, if that role works in your list then use them. With a wolf priest they can be a brutal unit thats fast enough that its almost impossible to keep them from getting the charge. The downfall of T-wolves is you cant hook them up with a wolf priest.

 

I use 3 drop pods for a similar strategy. Turn 1: 2 nasty units land amid their lines, they cannot be ignored because they are pretty strong units, coming across the board however is a lot more nasty units. They now have choices to make and unless we are talking extreme situations I will almost always get something that is mean get into the enemy where I need it.

[dswanick]

How else would a WG be getting 6 attacks on the charge other than if it got berserk charge and had double PF's? (still thats only 5 attacks, 2+1+2 for charging)

I suspect that he's getting six Power Fist attacksthis way :

Wolf Guard w/Power Fist 2A + 1 charging + Claw w/Power Fist 1A + 2 charging (Berserker Charge) = 6 Power Fist attacks

[Grey Mage]

How else would a WG be getting 6 attacks on the charge other than if it got berserk charge and had double PF's? (still thats only 5 attacks, 2+1+2 for charging)

Reread that 7 Mile, it was total for the squad. 2+1 for the wolf gaurd, and 1+2 for the bloodclaw.

[Wildfire]

Always take an attack bike, for 5 points you get an extra wound and attack. I'd say a WG is almost necessary, bike packs don't have the numbers to carry an assault against any decent opposing squads, and the extra power fist will make a big difference.

[Commissar Volker]

The only bikers I have are an all Wolf Guard Bike squad. Massively expensive (I only roll them out for Apocalypse usually), but they are so hideous it's great fun. So putting one in a Swiftclaw squad would be well worth it in my opinion.

[Khine]

random question but related... can you buy the PF for the swiftclaw attack bike? so that on the charge it would be 2 base + 2 for charging + the WG

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

I don't get the thought that Blood Claws and equivalent "need" a Wolf Priest while Grey Hunters don't... the Wolf Priest doesn't in any way change the fact that anything WS4 or better will hit Blood Claws on a 3... and simultaneously both Blood Claws and Grey Hunters will hit the majority of enemies in the game on a 4+ so from a hitting standpoint they both equally benefit from the Wolf Priest.

 

How many things in the game are exactly WS7 or 8? Those are the only units that Blood Claws hit on a 5+ that Grey Hunters don't...

 

Also - I think Wolf Guard Pack Leader on Bike is excellent for the extra fist and the fact that it is a hidden fist. I'd rather spend the 35 on a hidden fist than an IC who can get picked out. The IC may get "skilled rider" but its almost useless since the rest of the Blood Claws don't.

[dswanick]

I don't get the thought that Blood Claws and equivalent "need" a Wolf Priest while Grey Hunters don't... the Wolf Priest doesn't in any way change the fact that anything WS4 or better will hit Blood Claws on a 3... and simultaneously both Blood Claws and Grey Hunters will hit the majority of enemies in the game on a 4+ so from a hitting standpoint they both equally benefit from the Wolf Priest.

 

How many things in the game are exactly WS7 or 8? Those are the only units that Blood Claws hit on a 5+ that Grey Hunters don't...

 

Also - I think Wolf Guard Pack Leader on Bike is excellent for the extra fist and the fact that it is a hidden fist. I'd rather spend the 35 on a hidden fist than an IC who can get picked out. The IC may get "skilled rider" but its almost useless since the rest of the Blood Claws don't.

Blood Claws (et al) "need" a Wolf Priest to overcome their Headstrong rule as well as the Oath of War/Preferred Enemy to make up for their lower WS/BS. Also, Claws will benefit more from the PE re-roll because they are usually rolling more dice per model which equates to more misses (with the lower WS) and more opportunity to benefit from the re-rolls.

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

I don't get the thought that Blood Claws and equivalent "need" a Wolf Priest while Grey Hunters don't... the Wolf Priest doesn't in any way change the fact that anything WS4 or better will hit Blood Claws on a 3... and simultaneously both Blood Claws and Grey Hunters will hit the majority of enemies in the game on a 4+ so from a hitting standpoint they both equally benefit from the Wolf Priest.

 

How many things in the game are exactly WS7 or 8? Those are the only units that Blood Claws hit on a 5+ that Grey Hunters don't...

 

Also - I think Wolf Guard Pack Leader on Bike is excellent for the extra fist and the fact that it is a hidden fist. I'd rather spend the 35 on a hidden fist than an IC who can get picked out. The IC may get "skilled rider" but its almost useless since the rest of the Blood Claws don't.

Blood Claws (et al) "need" a Wolf Priest to overcome their Headstrong rule as well as the Oath of War/Preferred Enemy to make up for their lower WS/BS. Also, Claws will benefit more from the PE re-roll because they are usually rolling more dice per model which equates to more misses (with the lower WS) and more opportunity to benefit from the re-rolls.

 

Wolf Guard Pack Leader also overcomes Headstrong. Preferred enemy only applies offensively, so the lower BS only matters vs WS 7 and 8 (uncommon) - otherwise To Hit rolls for Blood Claws are exactly the same as Grey Hunters. The only time Blood Claws swing more is when they achieve the charge... they'll be lucky to pull off two charges over the course of the game.

[dswanick]

Preferred enemy only applies offensively, so the lower BS only matters vs WS 7 and 8 (uncommon) - otherwise To Hit rolls for Blood Claws are exactly the same as Grey Hunters.

Umm, no - unless I'm misunderstanding you. Preferred Enemy always applies - so any misses against the BC's OaW unit type can be re-rolled regardless of the enemy units WS. That Grey Hunters often will benefit equally from a WP-provided PE in no way changes why Claws "need" a WP.

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

Preferred enemy only applies offensively, so the lower BS only matters vs WS 7 and 8 (uncommon) - otherwise To Hit rolls for Blood Claws are exactly the same as Grey Hunters.

Umm, no - unless I'm misunderstanding you. Preferred Enemy always applies - so any misses against the BC's OaW unit type can be re-rolled regardless of the enemy units WS. That Grey Hunters often will benefit equally from a WP-provided PE in no way changes why Claws "need" a WP.

 

Your description of preferred enemy here is right... I just think that depending on how you're using your Blood Claws then the need for a Wolf Priest isn't a definite. If you're looking to take advantage of 6 fists on the charge then you don't need a Wolf Priest. If you're looking to maximize 15 Blood Claws out of a LRC then you probably do need a Priest.

 

In the case of this discussion: Swiftclaws, I think spending 70 points on two bikes is a lot to swallow - I'd rather spend only 35 in order to control headstrong and get the leadership boost. This is accomplished by both the Wolf Priest and the Wolf Guard Pack Leader. Fearless is nice and all, but hardly necessary for this unit to do its job. If you're running a pack of 10 swiftclaws with attack bike then the Wolf Priest really enhances the units hitting ability. However, if you want a small harassment unit thats going to zip around with turbo boost most of the time and deliver 6 crushing power fist blows in a timely moment while still remaining cheap, then having 3 swiftclaws, 1 with a fist, and a wolf guard pack leader on bike with a fist is sufficient to the job. In this situation you don't need a Wolf Priest.

[dswanick]

Preferred enemy only applies offensively, so the lower BS only matters vs WS 7 and 8 (uncommon) - otherwise To Hit rolls for Blood Claws are exactly the same as Grey Hunters.

Umm, no - unless I'm misunderstanding you. Preferred Enemy always applies - so any misses against the BC's OaW unit type can be re-rolled regardless of the enemy units WS. That Grey Hunters often will benefit equally from a WP-provided PE in no way changes why Claws "need" a WP.

 

Your description of preferred enemy here is right... I just think that depending on how you're using your Blood Claws then the need for a Wolf Priest isn't a definite. If you're looking to take advantage of 6 fists on the charge then you don't need a Wolf Priest. If you're looking to maximize 15 Blood Claws out of a LRC then you probably do need a Priest.

 

In the case of this discussion: Swiftclaws, I think spending 70 points on two bikes is a lot to swallow - I'd rather spend only 35 in order to control headstrong and get the leadership boost. This is accomplished by both the Wolf Priest and the Wolf Guard Pack Leader. Fearless is nice and all, but hardly necessary for this unit to do its job. If you're running a pack of 10 swiftclaws with attack bike then the Wolf Priest really enhances the units hitting ability. However, if you want a small harassment unit thats going to zip around with turbo boost most of the time and deliver 6 crushing power fist blows in a timely moment while still remaining cheap, then having 3 swiftclaws, 1 with a fist, and a wolf guard pack leader on bike with a fist is sufficient to the job. In this situation you don't need a Wolf Priest.

No doubt, which is why my Swift Claws are led by a WGPL. On the other hand, my Skyclaws get a WP because they have no other viable option.