Shadowstalker Grim Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 This is a topic to discuss the importance of leaders (HQ) within 40k, is it ever really worth taking the time to eliminate an enemy HQ choice? Usually they are well equipped and bring some special rules with them and a decent statline and more often than not have some sort of nasty bodyguard unit with them! However if they are removed from the battlefield, can we expect the battle to get any easier? I'm sure it varies slightly from army to army, but what do people generally think? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246752-the-importance-of-leaders/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the Silvercoat Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 It really would be all about what that HQ keeps on the table. Librians, Runes Priest, Chaplains, Wolf Priest, Farseers, Nercon Overlords with Res Orb and Pharean (makes unit Relentless), and some others would make the top of my list because of what they give to the unit they are in or surrounding units. But something like a Captain, Archon, Chapter Masters, or Warboss isn't worth the time and amount of firepower the take them down. I would hunt down HQs like Pedro Kantor, or Sanginuor because they give +1 attack to surrounding units. But I think the ones that give something during the game not when you take them really are on the top of the list of HQs that need to be killed during the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246752-the-importance-of-leaders/#findComment-2986939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 More often than not, I think, you're going to take them out only as a target of opportunity because to focus on them can lead to distraction; a HQ that confers +1A on the unit it's with does alter the dynamic of a combat somewhat but not so much that it's insurmountable. Wolf Priests, Librarians and Blood Angels Priests (they give FNP or another rule I believe?) are a worthy target because their abilities can have widespread effects, or at least cause a lot of problems. But as I said, focusing totally on an enemy HQ can have the potential to distract you from the rest of the game as a whole; you get so focused on this character having to die that the rest of your force is reacting rather than acting - who cares if the eney general dies if you have no men at all at the end of the battle and they have 5? Or even just 1. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246752-the-importance-of-leaders/#findComment-2986946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Of course, the main issue is about the expenditure of effort and resources to take a hero out. Libbys may be a high priority target but if they're hiding in a Raider with Hammernators then maybe it might be better to skirt around it. Likewise, a Libby running on its own should be taken out early on, as it is high priority and easy to take down. That being said, those targets that either increase the effectiveness of enemy's armies or those heroes that can easily cut through your army if given the chance and are hard to ignore, should be high priority targets and taken out first. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246752-the-importance-of-leaders/#findComment-2987008 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Often HQ units are accompanying a unit and either skulking in the back like Rune Priests or an important part of the opponent's attacking force. The former don't really lend much to anything other than being a target of opportunity since you normally have to brave unreasoned firepower and break through too much to get them. Those Long Fangs will win the game against you more than that Rune Priest with the Grey Hunter squad in a Rhino, for example, so you can't always afford to kill the Rune Priest and his mates when all those heavy weapons are hitting you. The latter are often part of an assault force that has to be removed since it is disrupting your plans and killing your army immediately. This means those Masters, Archons, Daemon Princes etc need to be eliminated along with any units they are with anyway so it's not too much of a commitment of resource to do so. Essentially, evaluate what threats to you winning the game are on the table. If they include an HQ choice then slit that rat's throat! If you can win the game by spending the resource to kill the HQ on something else, then you will have to do so. I would like to put a caveat into that advice however; if you have the resource spare to eliminate an HQ choice, do so! It gives you gloating rights, plus can actually affect your opponent's decision making in latter turns. HQs can be expensive and valuable in a player's mind. As an example, I fought a Chaos Marine list with the usual Obliterators and Daemon Prince once and managed to snipe a few Obliterators early and gun down a Daemon Prince. All of a sudden the 2nd Daemon Prince is hugging LoS blocking terrain and afraid to push forward, thus handing me an advantage regarding objectives as I no longer have to defend with as much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246752-the-importance-of-leaders/#findComment-2987079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Another point, is that it is possible to hold up or delay a valuable hq unit without destroying them, depending on the situation of course. Some hq's provide their buff before starting (grandmasters with grand strategy, draigo making paladins troops, combat tactics etc), while others provide a solid benefit throughout the game (pedro, coteaz, hive tyrant with old adversary, logan grimnar etc), this will effect how high they should be on your target list. When playing with my Draigo wing, I have recently discovered the joy of splitting him off to take something out, or to bait my opponent into trying to take him out. With my deathguard force I regularly sacrifice my daemon prince to let my scoring units survive. However, with my logan wing I try and keep Logan alive for as long as possible, due to his buffs, as long as his buffs are useful (I don't often need them if fighting tyranids for example). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246752-the-importance-of-leaders/#findComment-2987184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gearhead Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Lets do this by codex. Biggest thing to remember is this can change by scenario ("headhunter" for example), but typically doesn't guarantee victory Warmahordes style. +++Marines+++ Chaplain: You'll probably kill him along with the unit he's with (fearless, after all), so no, not really. Either you'll kill him or he'll kill you, no real hunting about it. Captain: Much like the Chaplain, he'll be on the front kicking stuff around. He tends to bring a command squad to chew through to boot, but it could be more benificial to drop them all since that's a chunk of points and special weapons. Librarian: If you get the chance, take it. Libbys are force multipliers and therefore priority targets. Unlike the other two options, they don't come with an invuln stock, so are easier to take out. In addition to psychic powers, they also have psychic defense in the hood. This means they're a pain in the ass twice, so they sooner they go down the better. Most characters follow the rules for their base unit type, with these exceptions. *Pedro: Pedro hands out attacks like candy at a parade, but only within 12". This means that they'll probably be about 3 or 4 squads within that radius, none of which want pedro to die. Unlike most special characters, an aspect of him other than his statline goes away when he dies, so people tend to protect him more. Even with him dead though, the army's still stubborn and Sternguard still score. It's a risk, drop him early and combat will be a lot easier, but you better believe he'll have some bodies to chew through first. *Khan: Taking out Khan really screws with people, since the squad they'd planned on H&Ring away just got stuck. It literally kills mobility, and I do it every chance I get. Suddenly the squad they'd planned on bouncing all over the table is just another squad. +++Tyranids+++ Tyrants: Drop 'em. They're big, synapse, help reserves roll in sooner, and they're pretty vulnerable to Krak missiles. Dropping him gets rid of the added reserves rolls, handing out Preferred enemy, etc. Doubly so for the Swarmlord, since he does all that stuff. Tervigons: I know they're usually troops, but that's the listing. Not quite as high priority as tyrants, but they do poop our gaunts, are synapse, and in some cases score. Drop the scoring ones first, targeting the ones that haven't finished dropping gaunts. Odds are pretty good you planned on killing them anyway since they're squatting on your opjectives, but they're priority targets. Tyranid Prime: Eh, not really. If it's the most dangerous thing on the table, you've probably got the game. +++Orks+++ Warbosses: They'll come to you to do the krumpin', you usually kill them on accident when you lay into their enormous squad. Big Mek: Could actually be worthwhile, since they usually carry Kustom Force Fields which protect the rest of the force. Your call if it's more worthwhile to kill him or shake all the vehicles first. I'd kill him, but that's me. Wyrdboy: Not quite the psychic threat the Librarian is, his effects are random and he's mostly taken because he's cheap. There's probably something more dangerous on the field. +++Eldar+++ Avatar: It's a big ol' MC, mind of a big deal. He drops out a fearless aura as well. He can wait though, since he's slow. Farseer: Destroy this man. He's about the biggest force multiplier in the game and Eldar forces are far worse off without them. If he's in a seer biker squad he's a little harder to take out, but the faster you drop this man the quicker whole units stop getting twin linked or re-rolling saves and they loose runes of witnessing!. Agh. Autarch: I haven't seen these guys used since 4th, mostly biking around with reaper launchers. Like most combat HQs, kill him and the unit he rode in on. +++Chaos+++ Deamon Princes: Usually have psychic powers, usually lash. At least, that's wha the internet says, I haven't actually seen chaos played in years. Back then I just shot him when he appeared, since I was all meched up even then it wasn't a huge deal. Chaos Lords: I really haven't seen them, I have no idea. Sorcerers: Psykers are usually higher on the priority list, but Chaos has Princes in the HQ slot and Obliterators in Heavy Support, so these guys are actually pretty low. +++Tau+++ Crisis Commanders: If Tau players are like me, this guy's death will mean very little. He's a better shot, sure, but I can't count how many time I'd rather have had another Crisis team. Most run about 100 points. Etheral: Are you kidding? You probably won't get another "I win" button like this again, kill him and enjoy a considerably easier game. +++Dark Eldar+++ Archons: A combat character, you'll either kill him by accident or not at all. I've actually relied on people hating him to pull squads away from where they should be to chase him and fruitlessly flail at him for a few turns. Succubus: Never seen one used, can't really comment. Haemonculus: If their Pain token went away when they died, maybe they'd be worth targeting. Since they don't, they're probably way below Ravagers and Venoms in priority. Baron: He hands out Stealth, so I'd drop him when possible. There's a problem in that you'll usually have to chew through 10 or so guys to get to him in the first place, and if you kill him in combat (where stealth is useless), then you really didn't deny your opponent anything. +++Necrons+++ Overlords: I'd kill the phaerons first, since they give relentless, but otherwise they're a combat character like any other. But slow. Crypteks: Not HQs, but pretty priority targets. They have goofy gear that hampers you, and are a little bit more fun to kill than squads that don't have one. Zahnderkh: Crush this man. He hands out special rules and strips yours away. This is annoying and goes away the instant he dies, so try to make that happen. He'll probably have Obryon nearby, so killing him might be a little more difficult. The usual solution is to ignore obryon and funnel your attacks into Zahnderkh, consequences of a combat character be damned. Anrakyr: You probably use a lot of vehicles, so stopping this man from screwing with them would probably benefit you. Short version; if an HQ unit can give benefits and go away when it dies, they're probably a good target for elimination over other things. If they're just a beatstick, kill 'em before they get to something you don't want to die. BUT, don't target them over something like a scoring unit or anything else that affects the mission. Mission first, assassinations later. Unless the mission is assassination. 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Shadowstalker Grim Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 That was a very thorough analysis there Gearhead! And thank you all for commenting! I expect that the opportunity to take out enemy leaders is subjective depending on what happens and what enemy you are facing and also what game type you are playing and you've confirmed this, so i'll move this topic onwards a little bit and move onto what units/strategies would you use to take out an enemy HQ+attatched squad (as it'll be rare someone will send their leader out to fight on their lonesome) I would say what unit would you use to defend your own HQ, but that brings up quite a few issues as you really need to make use of your HQ by putting them in the most appropriate squad, so instead I'll ask: Is there ever an occassion you won't take a chance with your HQ against certain enemy units even if they had a chance of winning? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246752-the-importance-of-leaders/#findComment-2987343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Hmm, especially with Gearhead's analysis it looks like you have the foundation of a "which leaders to kill 101" Grim ;). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246752-the-importance-of-leaders/#findComment-2987376 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I would like to second Captain Idaho's point about the psychological value of killing off an HQ unit. Very often, people pour extra time and energy into their HQ unit because they want it to stand out and be a centerpoint for their army. If you're able to take out their favored unit, it might distract the opponent enough to give you a workable advantage. I find that the earlier you can kill off that unit, the more impact it has. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246752-the-importance-of-leaders/#findComment-2987496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronk Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Black Templars: * Killing the marshal removes Leadership 10 for the army (excluding units attached to Chaplains and/or the Emperor's Champion). * Black Templars have to take a leadership check when they lose 1 model from a unit, instead of the normal 25%. * The standard Black Templar leadership is 8, and they don't get Sergeants in most squads. You'll normally want to kill the Black Templar's Marshal early if you can for these reasons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246752-the-importance-of-leaders/#findComment-2987548 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gearhead Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I would like to second Captain Idaho's point about the psychological value of killing off an HQ unit. Very often, people pour extra time and energy into their HQ unit because they want it to stand out and be a centerpoint for their army. If you're able to take out their favored unit, it might distract the opponent enough to give you a workable advantage. I find that the earlier you can kill off that unit, the more impact it has. I didn't factor that in, since it'll vary by opponent. Usually if they're bragging about how awesome their HQ is, you either kill it off to make their morale drop like a rock (sometimes even with a mechanical effect, as kronk points out), or it was an elaborate ruse to waste your time. I've seen both, Once saw a chaos player run right into the nightbringer (poor judgement on his part), died horribly. Then he made that drained sadface people make when the fight goes out of them, rest of the match was halfhearted. The other was Creed/Kell combo that got Earthshakered round one, probably shouldn't have bragged there. I know I said I was going to go codex by codex, but then I got tired and went to bed. Might get to the others later, since Blood Angels Libbys have different priority compared to Grey Knight libbys, since one's more offensive and the other has some good support that needs to be stopped. Rune priests again differ, the primary reason to drop them isn't their powers, but the fact they stop yours on a 4+. I'll get around to it, or Grim can do it, I'd be happy to help. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246752-the-importance-of-leaders/#findComment-2987597 Share on other sites More sharing options...
VIIILegionaire. Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Gearhead's analysis is pretty awesome, I certainly am try his advice next time I play. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246752-the-importance-of-leaders/#findComment-2987648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowstalker Grim Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 Hmm, especially with Gearhead's analysis it looks like you have the foundation of a "which leaders to kill 101" Grim You know me DarkGuard, any excuse :) Which reminds me I do have a psychic 101 and that I need to finish as it was started many moons ago....I'll settle down to finish it at some point! Or just make it less adventurous! And enemies 101 needs some updating too.... In terms of HQs it is supposed to be the physical representation of the player on the battlefield, so technically if it dies we (the player) dies. In realistic terms, this never happens, we actually take on the role of some omni-potent demi god with the power to manipulate our troops minds, but I digress...the HQ is a key unit in many ways but it depends on someones approach. It is a mandatory unit for a player to take and more often than not it will not be barebones (cheap perhaps, but not barebones) and more often than not it'll also have a squad to surround it. So even at the most basic level we can expect a HQ unit to have a fair number of points tied up in it, even if its only libby+tactical squad+transport, we're looking in the region of 300 points...If it gets more extravagant we can expect the price to rise up to the 600 point benchmark! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246752-the-importance-of-leaders/#findComment-2987667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Hmm, especially with Gearhead's analysis it looks like you have the foundation of a "which leaders to kill 101" Grim You know me DarkGuard, any excuse :) Which reminds me I do have a psychic 101 and that I need to finish as it was started many moons ago....I'll settle down to finish it at some point! Or just make it less adventurous! And enemies 101 needs some updating too.... True, true ;). I had been meaning to contact you on the psychic 101, found all my Nid psyker write ups on my laptop, let me know when you want to start that up again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246752-the-importance-of-leaders/#findComment-2987752 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Gearhead did a nice job, but he didn't cover Sisters or Grey Knights. I'll field their HQs. Sisters of Battle: Cannoness: Adds a reasonable force multiplier to squad she's attached to, but not much else. Adding stubborn to whatever squad she's attached to does make her a bit of a priority, but not a huge one. Similar to captain/chaplain, odds are you'll kill her along with whatever squad she's attached to. Confessor: Basically works like a chaplain, except he gets to bring in a fairly nasty battle conclave unit, because GW decided that the only squad in the Sisters dex that should be capable of fighting effectively in close combat is the one with no women in it. Since you'll want to kill any battle conclaves off as a priority, you're likely to catch the Confessor in the process. However, odds are you won't see the two generic HQs very often, since GW made them both fairly unimpressive, and the SCs are one the only decent things in the Dwarfdex. Celestine: A bit of a dilemma here. On the one hand, she's not fun at all to get hit by. One the other hand, whenever you kill her she'll eventually come back to life. She's really just a basic beatstick though; aside from her ability to inflict damage, she doesn't offer the army anything. Target her if she's an immediate threat, ignore her if she's not. Jacobus: Grants re-rolls on all faith tests for the entire army, and gives whatever unit he's attached to Feel No Pain and +1 attack. Since he gives a very nice army-wide buff and very nice buffs to the unit he's attached to, killing him should be reasonably high-priority. Kyrinov: The only game-changer he has is a 6" Fearless bubble; nice, but not huge. Slightly higher priority than a normal confessor. Grey Knights: Grand Master/Brother-Captain: Hits hard in close combat, especially if he's been upgraded to carry grenades. Grenades and hammerhand only modify the squad he's attached to, but they're both pretty nice boosts. GK units hit hard enough in cc without adding in the strength boost from two sources of hammerhand and a toughness penalty from rad grenades. Still, the only army-wide ability he has (other than Grand Strategy, which isn't lost upon his death) is a psychic power that modifies his army's reserve rolls. Makes him a higher-priority target if you're in a match where reserve rolls are important. Librarian: Possibly even more of a priority target than other Librarians, since GK libbies start out being able to use two powers a turn standard. Brotherhood Champion: Treat him like a Chaplain, except make a point of keeping any of your own HQs out of close combat with him to avoid losing a valuable model to Heroic Sacrifice. Inquisitors Most Inquisitors are built as cheap support HQs. To some extent, how nasty they are depends on their gear and your army setup; if you've got a lot of plasma, an Inquisitor with a Plasma Siphon is a big problem. However, one thing to be wary of is an Inquisitor's ability to serve as a Hammerhand boost/grenade caddy role like the GKGM. An Inquisitor can fill that role for much cheaper than the GM, but at toughness 3 with no standard invulnerable save and not many ways to get one, he's a lot squishier. Usually worth killing if a good opportunity presents itself. Draigo: Big nasty beatstick HQ; and very durable as well. Most of what he adds to the army is done in list-building, and on the table he's not a big priority by himself. Since he usually hangs out in Paladin deathstar units, odds are you'll kill him along with the rest of the deathstar. Hopefully. Coteaz: His "I've Been Expecting You" ability can be nasty if your army relies on Deep Striking or outflanking, in which case he becomes a priority target. You don't want your units getting shot to bit before they even get a chance to act. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246752-the-importance-of-leaders/#findComment-2987976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gearhead Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I forgot Guard too, Xeno centric scum that I am. +++Imperial Guard+++ Company Command Squads: These guys hand out the big, important orders and come in squads of five T3 dudes. Often they'll have advisers attached, which ups their priority even more. However, they'll either be in a Chimera or surrounded by 50, 60 people. Whirlwinds are perfect for this kind of thing if they're on foot, otherwise you'll have to get them out of their Chimera first. They're a much bigger deal in foot lists where the huge squads can take full advantage of their orders, they're much less common in mechanized lists. Their advisers either buff theri reserves rolls (bad), nerf yours (also bad, especially for pod lists), or drop earthshaker rounds from off table. It says something when laying out large blasts is one of the least dangerous things they can do. *Creed: CREEEED! is a great force multiplier who can chunk out orders at twice the normal range, so you should probably shoot at him at least once. Everything about command squads applies to him as well, particularly since he's a good chunk of points and it's a fair bet that if he's on the table, your opponent probably built his list around him. By the time the fight starts he's long given a unit scout, so that won't stop, It's a good idea to disrupt the Imperial Guard command structure early, since the more turns that go on the more they'll benefit from it. It can be a tall order, since Guard players typically want to protect their commadn squads, but the sooner you do the deed the better. *Kell: I don't actually know what he does off the top of my head, someone else do this. *"Iron Hand" Straken: Kind of a badass, killing him is actually much more difficult than killing the other two characters. Combat in particular will be difficult; remember those 50 or 60 guys I said would be around any Command Squad on foot? They've got Furious Charge and Counter Attack when Straken's around, and blob squads are actually pretty nasty in combat. With his armor save the usual way of dealing with lots and lots of infantry is less effective, you'll really have to hit him hard to take him out. Lord Commisars: Much less common than their counterparts in platoons, these guys project an aura of leadership around them. Typically this means they're in a vehicle to measure that aura from the hull. He can attach to squads, but is still an independent character and can be singled out in combat. Usually taken because they're cheap, that honor goes to Techpriests and Ministorum Priests, so don't plan on seeing him around much. Primarus Psykers: If you have a libby, this guys' kind of a chump. If you don't he's not too fearsome, either making you pass a leadership test to shoot at him or his unit (and you're marines) or shooting lightning at you. This can actually churn out quite a bit of shots from a Chimera hatch. However, unlike most psykers he really doesn't have much buffing or force multiplying going on, and if any army would benefit from that, it's guard. Because of that, he's a lower priority, much lower than a command squad, who does do all that buffing and debuffing. Ministorum Priests: Withe the FAQ, these jokers can be compulsory HQs. They're 1 wound guys who sometimes have chainsaws or shotguns, otherwise they're kind of like chaplains. They let a squad re-roll missed attacks (which can be a big deal in 50 man mobs), and have a 4+ invuln. However, compared to what the IG player probably took with the points saved he's probably not that big a deal. He only buff the squad he's in and (important) is independent and can be picked out. I'd honestly be more worried about the Commisars in the blob squad. Techpriest Enginseers: Again, the FAQ lets 'em be compulsory. Can either be a shooting unit or a repair unit, but (like most repair units in this game) is way better at close combat instead. With servo arm servitors he can follow around a squad of tanks to put their guns back on ('cause he's not fixing the treads), or going powerfist crazy somewhere. Another option is having servitors with guns and hanging back with heavy weapons, as guard do. Or he's there to be a cheap HQ like the preacher, and the points were spent on demolishers or vendettas instead. overall he's pretty low priority, unless you have a habit of rolling a lot of 3s on the damage chart. I'd take him over the preacher, but only because he looks cooler. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246752-the-importance-of-leaders/#findComment-2988004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azerick Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 For Succubus, I use them alot and they will come to you and make you deal with them, as with any wych, shooting works best if you get the chance. ******edit for spelling***** Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246752-the-importance-of-leaders/#findComment-3021624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Jaschk Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Might not always make it easier to win the game, BUT, it might have an impact on your oppenents morality and ability to play and improvise^^ In which case it might be easier to win. Besides, it's always nice to have some high-profile Xeno or hot-sot Chaos grub on your kill-tally ;) Anyways, just my 2 cents Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246752-the-importance-of-leaders/#findComment-3021967 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowstalker Grim Posted March 22, 2012 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 Well I guess if this thread is resurfacing... What would people say the best 'leader killer' is? I'm going to make the rather general assumption that the majority of HQs are in a melee oriented unit (as this is generally the norm, is it not?) and that we are fighting them with vanilla marines. The way I see it there are about 2 or 3 options really to getting rid of them (and they're fairly obvious) 1 - Blow their transport up (if applicable) and watch the unit walk around desperately trying to get into battle with something 2 - Shoot the unit to pieces with decent high strength weaponry 3 - Get your own melee unit into battle with theirs But what to use to acheive the death of an enemy leader unit? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246752-the-importance-of-leaders/#findComment-3022125 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinnock Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Telion could be useful because you can target the leader directly. unfortunately not that powerful of a weapon though Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246752-the-importance-of-leaders/#findComment-3022129 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oppressor Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I think it's worth specifically going after your opponent's HQ if it's obvious they actually put effort into them. I don't think of it as specifically trying to demoralize your opponent, but actually driving the story or the battle forward. Everyone at least puts some thought and effort into their HQ, if only in what fits best with the points you have left over from building the rest of your army. The main problemmto me though, is with all these premade special character HQs. There's something very hollow about them to me and a lot of them are not even taken for themselves but for the rules or bonuses they give. Sure there are exceptions to this, everyone has different reasons for taking whatever they take, I'm sure someone actually does love Calgar, rules, model and all and wants him to be at the forefront of the battle duking it out. But a lot of times it's just special character x that was taken for benefits and the person couldn't reall care less what happens to him. That makes me kinda sad. So, I guess my point is, if my opponent actually loves their HQ and really wants a good fight with them, I'm more than happy to oblige becuase it benefits the game, not because it would demoralize or humiliate them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246752-the-importance-of-leaders/#findComment-3022186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 1 - Blow their transport up (if applicable) and watch the unit walk around desperately trying to get into battle with something 2 - Shoot the unit to pieces with decent high strength weaponry 3 - Get your own melee unit into battle with theirs But what to use to acheive the death of an enemy leader unit? All of the above :P. The thing is, ICs can be hard to kill, especially if hiding in squads. For Libbys and the like combat is perhaps the best option as they commonly have no invulnerable save and you can pick them out with power fists etc. Combat units of course you don't want in combat so here it's better to blast their unit apart and then snipe them with lascannons, meltas when they're all that remains. I know that Vindicators are good for character hunting, as a dead on hit can cover the whole unit and with good dice rolls force a wound onto them, if not then often they're all that's left. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246752-the-importance-of-leaders/#findComment-3022244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Taking Honour Guard all this time I always fought an up hill battle against many opponents with the usual Net lists, and I think the thing I always lacked to help even the odds was a Vindicator. Of course, lack of a model and obsession with Dreadnoughts stood in my way of adding one to my armies, but no longer! Anyway, what I'm leading to is the benefits of a Demolisher cannon. It enables you to immediately even the odds in an assault so you can either tip the balance of a combat in your own characters' favour or just out and out wipe an opposing character out. Perhaps most under valued in list building is the benefits of a choice outside of a direct killing power-damage absorbtion ratio for points value. Things like Vindicators have a massive killing potential, but can win you a game without even firing a shot! Often an opponent will place their prized killing unit away from the Vindicator just so it can't be killed in one shot, which can be used to avoid nasty units and their nasty HQ. We can use this to our advantage too, by attacking with our nasty HQ alongside the shadow of that cannon. Opponents will often target the Vindicator when they should be stopping your HQ's transport. If not, hit them with the Vindicator! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246752-the-importance-of-leaders/#findComment-3022425 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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