VIIILegionaire. Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Well, tax time around here, and with my return I'm wanting to buy and paint something new for my loyalist army. I was wondering about the command squad? The current size games me and my friends are playing are around 1000pts on average. I was wondering in such a sized game, would a Command Squad be worth it? What to equip them with? Or should I spring for something else, like a drop pod, sternguard, etc. Edit: Typo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowstalker Grim Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I think the first squad you'll be suggested to take is: 4 plasma guns, 1 apocathery The reason being is because its pretty shooty and survives longer with the FNP the apocathery provides. Really I'd ask: What do you want your squad to do? After all they have a large array of wargear options and can acheive quite a few different tasks if you give them the right tools... If you're going down the melee route keep it fairly simple, Its very easy to go over the top! As the squad is only 5 strong it won't neccessarily have the man power to take on massive mobs or elite units. It could go tank hunting with melta weapons, or mix it up with flamers and meltas to do a little bit of everything...just don't diversify it too much! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/#findComment-2987671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Command squads are worth it as long as you have a plan, stick to it and don't spend too much on them. As Grim has said one of the first squads suggested is the quad plasma squad. Command squads are one of the best platforms in the Marine Codex for plasma thanks to each Vet being able to take a plasma gun and FnP preventing them from dying too much to overheat. Captain then goes in another squad or with the squad for combat support (as they will get charged), if you want give him a combi-plasma. And if you really want to go overboard with it take a las/plas Razorback as transport!! Oddly enough the best HQ for this unit is the Libby with Null Zone, so in high points games it's worth attaching him to the unit. Combat squads are easier to figure out, spend too many points and you might as well take Hammernators or Honour Guard. However, with the rule of no more than one upgrade per member (except maybe one if you're going for wound allocation), you can do all right. One option is to have the Apothecary, Company Champion, a power fist, lighting claw and storm shield, all on different models. Give your Captain a storm shield and relic blade and you're sorted. Another which I prefer is Apothecary, power fist, lightning claw/storm shield, lighting claw, storm shield. 15 more points, all still different models, and more damage and survivability. You can of course mix shooting and assault, but doing so creates an unfocussed squad and I'd advise against it. And you can take bikes, but that option is expensive. On the other hand it's easier to get them into combat and they're more durable thanks to T5. There's some loadouts and tips on how to use them in the C:SM 101 in mine and Grim's sigs if you want a look. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/#findComment-2987776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormshadow Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 From what I have heard you should take bikes if you want them fore cc. If not for the bikes and T5 you will most often be better off with Terminators. As a weapons platform they are great. But this is only what I have heard. I only have one type of personal experience with the command squad and that is a type of purgation squad: Vulkan Captain with Relic Blade and Storm Shield. Command Squad with 4 flamers and a Drop Pod. That’s about 510pts if I remember correctly… They come in from reserve and disintegrate one unit with their flamers (you can usually get somewhere around 20 hits on a ten man squad). After that you relay on Vulkan and the Captain to soak up wounds and tear things apart in close combat, but be wary of dreadnoughts. Adding a power fist to the unit and maybe some artificer armor on the captain would help out with wound soaking and dealing with dreads, but that’s pouring even more points in to the unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/#findComment-2987983 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon999 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Yeah, for the love of god, don't do what I did and build a crazy force. I ended up with the champ with power sword and combat shield, apothecary, banner carrier with power sword, and two TH/SS vets for a close combat force. Its incredibly deadly when paired with the captain (usually relic blade and SS or twin LC's) but for the points its just not even close to worth it. Although it was fun to watch the ork player I used it against devote two 30 man boyz mobz AND snikrot and his commando's to kill them and their rhino..... I think I killed about 20 boyz before they all went down so only useful in that it distracted that much of his army from other spots. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/#findComment-2995113 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigrinus Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I've seen squads armed entirely with storm bolters, captain included, dish out some serious punishment. I've never used the load out myself, but being inexpensive, the fire unaffected by the squad's movement, and the TL heavy bolters of the razorback the guy fielded with them, it seemed like an effective combo. Of course, the player in question was up against an Ork player with a force of around 200 models. That represents the optimal conditions in which to outfit a squad in such a manner. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/#findComment-2996131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaigo Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 The apocathery also being a vet can also take a plasma right? So you can take 5 plasma or 5 melta's?? Thinking on making such a squad with an razorback Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/#findComment-2996137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 The Apothecary isn't a Vet, he's an Apothecary with his own statline and starting wargear, no swapping out his gear for stuff like plasma guns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/#findComment-2996163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaigo Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Would´ve sworn I read somewhere the apothecary has vetern status within the ranks. But indeed, it is not specified as being so in the codex. And now actualy understand why the apothecary has his own stat line, making him separated from the vet´s, and therefor is not a vet himself for codex purposes. So the apothecary has Wargear - power armor - chainsword - frag and krak grenades - boltgun or bolt pistol ( only choice ) - + the apothecary also has a narthecium Shame, wanted to give the bloke a spare Librarian staff I had ready. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/#findComment-2996237 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowstalker Grim Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 perhaps instead of a chainsword a chainstaff? :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/#findComment-2996511 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaigo Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Nifty.... chainsword tipped claive.... I´ll post it ( in an new own thread )when its done, thanks for that one! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/#findComment-2996843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Would´ve sworn I read somewhere the apothecary has vetern status within the ranks.But indeed, it is not specified as being so in the codex. And now actualy understand why the apothecary has his own stat line, making him separated from the vet´s, and therefor is not a vet himself for codex purposes. So the apothecary has Wargear - power armor - chainsword - frag and krak grenades - boltgun or bolt pistol ( only choice ) - + the apothecary also has a narthecium Shame, wanted to give the bloke a spare Librarian staff I had ready. Fluff means nothing in the army list. It wouldn't matter if the fluff for Apothecaries say they commonly go to battle on massive thrones on top of Dreadnoughts wielding dual lascannons, if the option isn't in the army list entry, they can't take it. Now Apothecaries IIRC aren't technically Vets, rather they are commonly assigned to them as they're in the thick of the battle, where most casualties occur, and are also the guys most likely to keep the Apothecary alive. In the army list though he has a different profile under the title Apothecary, and although it'd identical to the Veteran profile, he can't take their equipment options as he's not under the Veteran profile. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/#findComment-2996874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfinger Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Presumably, since the company champion and standard bearer are (upgraded) veterans they can be given additional weapon upgrades, although I guess that could quickly end up in the 'too expensive' category? Also I was wondering about modelling a veteran firing two plasma pistols to count as a plasmagun, for a bit of variety. Since it's not possible (as far as I know) to actually have two plasma pistols this shouldn't be too confusing if explained at the start of the game? Or is this a bad idea? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/#findComment-2997068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 The standard bearer can definitely have additional equipment, he is a Veteran with an extra piece of wargear, but still a standard bearer. The Company Champion, on the other hand, can and can't. Can in that he has a different profile and therefore can't take Veteran upgrades. Can in that many argue that he can take the upgrades as a Veteran and then upgrade to a Champion and get his free Champion stuff. Too expensive? Maybe. But really, for 15pts you get +1WS, a power sword and combat shield, for the price of a power sword, and you want more! :D. And you should be fine with that idea if you let people know beforehand, extra points if you can explain how two pistols can fire 24" :). And as this has become a bit OR, I'll pull it back to Tactica. The standard bearer IMO is only taken if you want the unit to support the rest of your force. The only combat benefit it gives the unit is +1 combat res, it doesn't give +1A, that's the Chapter Banner. However, units with 12" re-roll failed morale and pinning tests so stick it in the middle of your forces to stop them from running etc. But worth the points? Probably not, Marines have a good Ld anyway, and +1 combat res isn't much, it's hardly helped me with my Honour Guard. As for the Champion, the option is basically him for half the price of a lightning claw/ storm shield guy, but less survivable and does less damage. He does add a lot of character to the force though, I just wish he'd been able to get something like a relic blade maybe, to make him as useful as the Chapter Champion. Or perhaps come free with the unit, like the Chapter Champion. WS5 is nice though, and he has 4 attacks on the charge. Digi weapons would have been a good upgrade now I think about it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/#findComment-2997092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 The standard bearer IMO is only taken if you want the unit to support the rest of your force. The only combat benefit it gives the unit is +1 combat res, it doesn't give +1A, that's the Chapter Banner. However, units with 12" re-roll failed morale and pinning tests so stick it in the middle of your forces to stop them from running etc. But worth the points? Probably not, Marines have a good Ld anyway, and +1 combat res isn't much, it's hardly helped me with my Honour Guard. The +1 to combat resolution is....OK, but I find the re-roll well worth the points. While Space Marines have good leadership, when you fail that one roll you really needed to make - that second chance to roll is worth quite a bit! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/#findComment-2997100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 The +1 to combat resolution is....OK, but I find the re-roll well worth the points. While Space Marines have good leadership, when you fail that one roll you really needed to make - that second chance to roll is worth quite a bit! Maybe I've just been awful with placing my Honour Guard, but many times I've found my banner to be out of range of my forces. It's a trade off, the units autonomy against making your force better as a unit. Obviously the latter is good, as affects like that can do well in an army, but on the other hand the first can be good, resulting in less restriction to your forces. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/#findComment-2997102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I use two different Command Squads, depending on how I've built my army on a given day. First is the mentioned quad-plasma build. I park it in cover and use it as an area denial tool. The Apothecary helps cut down on Gets Hot! deaths, and the plasma guns are a nice Swiss Army knife. I've used them to peel open Rhinos, reduce TDA squads to irrelevance, and to start or end the wounds on Monstrous Creatures. I've occasionally added a Captain with a power sword and plasma pistol to the unit just as melee insurance. Nothing exciting, but cheap enough at 130pts. Second is the Biker Command Squad. I run this squad "fluffy". Every Marine has a different wargear loadout, and I don't double up on upgrades like the folks who suggest a meltagun and stormshield on every guy. They're expensive as it is, no need to make every Marine in the squad cost 50+ points. My ideal setup is Banner Bearer, Apothecary, Champion, Power Weapon Vet, and Stormshield Vet. They ride alongside a relic blade-armed Captain and provide a nice mix of powered attacks alongside a high volume of basic attacks. Too many power weapons and you carve through the enemy too quickly, and end up blasted to bits on the opponent's turn. This setup is a nice balance, and tends to end a melee during the opponent's turn, leaving me free to hit a new target on my next turn. Despite that, there's really no such thing as a "melee specialist" Biker Command Squad. When stacked up against any dedicated melee unit from any book, they fall flat. The lack of a high Initiative value and inexpensive Invulnerable saves hurts them in the end. The Biker Command Squad kitted with melee weapons is more of a schoolyard bully. They wait til the littler kids get off the bus, and then they take their milk money. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/#findComment-2997619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Yep, worth it. I usually have my command squad (when used with a captain w/ relic blade) also contain a champion, apoth, and mix of stuff. Always have a good time with them. Mine are primarily kitted for assault. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/#findComment-2997759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I run my Iron Hands super-shooty, so I went with the quad-plasma accompanying a Librarian while my Captain (Lysander) goes off doing other things. Combined with Null Zone for cutting through storm shields, that concentration of plasma is a terror on the battlefield. Its so feared at my LGS, that the unit's Razorback has become a Turn One priority target for most folks, and one of the Chaos players started building five-plasma Chosen squads in imitation of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/#findComment-2997796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I guess your Libby know has Gate to counter-attack the Razorback dying early on? I know I've had to do the same with my Sternguard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/#findComment-2997857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I guess your Libby know has Gate to counter-attack the Razorback dying early on? I know I've had to do the same with my Sternguard. No, actually -- Avenger. I try to present more immediate targets, like a full-speed-ahead LR Redeemer carrying Lysander & Sternguard or a drop podding Ironclad. And while my armor save rolls tend towards poop, I'm usually really good about vehicle cover saves, so I play it cagey with that Razorback in regards to terrain and mucking up fire-lanes with Rhinos or my Rifleman. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/#findComment-2998099 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I guess your Libby know has Gate to counter-attack the Razorback dying early on? I know I've had to do the same with my Sternguard. No, actually -- Avenger. I try to present more immediate targets, like a full-speed-ahead LR Redeemer carrying Lysander & Sternguard or a drop podding Ironclad. And while my armor save rolls tend towards poop, I'm usually really good about vehicle cover saves, so I play it cagey with that Razorback in regards to terrain and mucking up fire-lanes with Rhinos or my Rifleman. Fair enough, also one of my favourite powers in the Codex. And I wrote "know" instead of "now". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/#findComment-2998140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 The +1 to combat resolution is....OK, but I find the re-roll well worth the points. While Space Marines have good leadership, when you fail that one roll you really needed to make - that second chance to roll is worth quite a bit! Maybe I've just been awful with placing my Honour Guard, but many times I've found my banner to be out of range of my forces That would be normal for an Honor Guard - they need to get to the enemy quickly to earn back their points. Command Squads can serve different roles. They can be placed in the middle of the army to support whoever they need to support. The banner is a necessity for the Honor Guard - that +1A is awesome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/#findComment-2998148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 The +1 to combat resolution is....OK, but I find the re-roll well worth the points. While Space Marines have good leadership, when you fail that one roll you really needed to make - that second chance to roll is worth quite a bit! Maybe I've just been awful with placing my Honour Guard, but many times I've found my banner to be out of range of my forces That would be normal for an Honor Guard - they need to get to the enemy quickly to earn back their points. Command Squads can serve different roles. They can be placed in the middle of the army to support whoever they need to support. The banner is a necessity for the Honor Guard - that +1A is awesome. I'm not so sure about that bannus, "making one's points back" is a very old method of judging a unit's worth and one I certainly don't invest any time in. When I've played my Honour Guard, thanks to the fact that they're in a Rhino I find rushing them straight into the jaws of the enemy with little support to not be the best tactic. Instead I run them behind my Tactical squads and use them intercept any threats, charging in alongside Tactical Marines if need be, using that 14" range to help. Now that keep them in range of the Tactical squads with their banners most the time, but for some reason I really need to seem to need it once they've charged 14" to get to one target and left a unit outside their bubble that gets shot and loses their Sergeant etc. Sods law I guess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/#findComment-2998166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaigo Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Also shame the apothecary isn´t an character upgrade to be used with tactical squads. Was this the case in previous editions? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246809-command-squads/#findComment-2998377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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