Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 The following is just a hypothetical situation developed whilst thinking about killing stuff, but I'm curious to know what peoples thoughts are (and no, I don't need to see rants about "tailoring"). When you play, you seek to counter the threats that are presented to you with the units you have available - or the ones you have near the situation - to the best of your abilities. Situations will often come up where you can't choose the best option - Assault Terminators over Assault Squads for protracted combat, as an example - but you have to make do and try to pull through anyway. My question is though: What do you do when your opponent has a counter to every single ploy you have for the troops at your disposal? Would you plough through with the original plan? Knowing that you'll be countered and "lose", seeing what you might learn about how you go to that point. Concede? Are there tactical tricks that are not army-specific you can pull to counter this type of thing? I know it should be unlikely that such a situation would ever develop but I did say "hypothetical". So, dudes and dudettes, thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246851-for-every-action/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 well, concede is a bad option unless you have time constraits. The number of games where I have seen one player concede, then get talked out of conceding and either then winning or at least getting the draw is quite high. Personally, I would try to adjust my plan to react and hope I can come up with something to make the game more intertesting. A lot of times I am certain I am going to lose I try very odd things I would never do in a game I felt I still could win just to see what happens. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246851-for-every-action/#findComment-2988234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 My question is though: What do you do when your opponent has a counter to every single ploy you have for the troops at your disposal? Would you plough through with the original plan? Knowing that you'll be countered and "lose", seeing what you might learn about how you go to that point. That really depends on the situation. If its early game, I'm less likely to try my luck with dice in the face of bad odds; if its late game and I need to break a draw or take the win, I just might throw that one unit into a meat-grinder and hope for the best. Most of the time, I'll launch a feint. I'll move the unit(s) up as if preparing to follow through with my now out-the-window plan just to gauge how my opponent reacts. If it takes the threat seriously and moves to counter, that may just open up other possibilities for exploitation on another part of the board. If he ignores it as a feint and thus ends up out of position to end that threat, I may continue with it just to see how far I can push my enemy before he chooses to react -- or is forced to react. If anything, it makes for a sideshow that just may take hier/her attention off of the main objective. Concede? Rarely, even in pick-up games, though it does happen. Normally I try to stick with it and try for the draw, or at least to get in as many licks as I can and elicit a measure of respect from my opponent despite the walloping I'm in the act of receiving. Are there tactical tricks that are not army-specific you can pull to counter this type of thing? I know it should be unlikely that such a situation would ever develop but I did say "hypothetical". The Feint, as I mentioned above. Even if you have no intention of following through on the threat implied by your unit movement, it can force your opponent to react and wrong-foot them. Dictating the terms of the engagement is always beneficial. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246851-for-every-action/#findComment-2988303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 You have an opponent that has a counter to every single ploy you have for the troops at your disposal? Wow. Time to play some other people. Now there is a big difference between he counters your tactics vs has a means to kill every unit you play. The insidious nature of 40K is that it is indeed an arms race of sorts. Sometimes to improve you have to add to your collection, in order to increase the potential of your army. Case in point: Dakka dreads. Some people are buying as many as 6 of these at a pop, just to have a competitve list (plus buying the extra arms). Or cases of razorbacks. I've seen however, some amazing players that can table someone with their army, then switch sides and wipe the same player out with his own. That, my friend, is due to an innate ability to understand the weakness of the other person's list and then use it against them. In some games there is no space or time for tactical thinking, just brute math-hammer. One way to improve is to start a journal where you break down what happened in each game, and why each key result occurred. Don't just focus on what went wrong for you - work to also understand what went right. That homework and introspection can be put back into context the next game. Doing this will make you a better player (over time). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246851-for-every-action/#findComment-2988325 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutters Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 That's when I usually start having fun by ramming them with my transports, or doing odd things. Also, pray to the Emperor. The Emperor Protects! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246851-for-every-action/#findComment-2988442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
awfulawful Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Concede? To admit defeat is to blaspheme against the Emperor. If it looks that grim, there's still fun to be had somewhere. Set some other kind of goal for yourself: kill his HQ, crush that dreadnought that squished so many of your guys last game, whatever. Or take advantage of the fact that you really have nothing to lose, and try something crazy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246851-for-every-action/#findComment-2988445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Project.2501 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 This has happened to me before. After awhile of playing the same people, whether any of you realize it or not, intentionally or otherwise, you start to tailor your lists against each other. Long story cut short, as long as this game is based on rolling dice (chance), there is never a reason to concede. Some of the best/most memorable gaming experiences come from those 'impossible' situations. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246851-for-every-action/#findComment-2988477 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I think, when you find your every move being countered handily, it's time to bust out the notepad and start recording. Record, study, patch up whatever weaknesses you find, play again, rinse and repeat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246851-for-every-action/#findComment-2988730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaigo Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 If I see someone has the upperhand, or would be able to counter the tactic I set in motion I try and turn the table. By "tactical retreat" reverse, change plans and change objective you had and perhaps the oponent had forseen. That way you can get equal footing again and perhaps press advantage. Perhaps even use his eagerness (some then go blank and blind to threats) to win and crush you to lure troops in a small crossfire trap if able. An nice example at someone turning the table on me: I had once an eldar player who started to tank shock me with various vehicles. Caught me by suprise for sure, splattered a few squads and caught one of my dread in the bum! It ain't over till the fat lady signs. Stand firm, with courage and honour! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246851-for-every-action/#findComment-2988782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Never give up.... never surrender! This is a game of dice. Weird random things happen- like Marneus and his entourage in TDA wiffing completely as they assault you. Even if your opponent has counters.... so should you. Do your best to bring them into play, and see what happens. Frankly though, this is why I dont have a plan until the battle is upon me. So many variables are stuck in terrain, my opponents army compsoition.... I dont understand how you guys make battle plans in anything other than a general sense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246851-for-every-action/#findComment-2988814 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Willy Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Counter his counter, you won't win with this but at least you'll have a draw over a lose, if your playing a meq army just rely on your better then average stats to prevent total wipeouts and set up for a one two punch over a couple turns. Or try and cause a little chaos by bunching up into little groups and launching at everything nearby, get as many units into assault at once and tactics go out the window, obviously try and get stuff to face off with stuff it can beat but this is a last stand tactic so just try your best. I've had a few draws after a few turns of being smashed with these kinds of tactics, usually the enemy doesn't realize he can't do anything but resolve the assaults till his turn is up and all he can move are transports, you see them panic a little when this happens, though it is hard to pull of without a lot of planning in the deployment. Zerkers are ace for this though, bunch two units at different levels of a ruin or in a long line of terrain and wait a turn or two then pounce. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246851-for-every-action/#findComment-2988848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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