beating puppies

[khurdur]

Hey, I was thinking, how can I beat a Space wolf army at 1500p playing something like

 

wolf lord with 3+ to hit, thunderwolf mount, powerfist and storm shield, eternal warrior

3x10 grey hunters with 2x meltaguns, powerfist, rhino

4 thunderwolves w/ one powerfist

3x5 longfangs with 4 ML each

 

I play usually

libby/reclusiarch or captain with jp and powersowrd

2x10 assault marines 2x meltaguns powerfist

5 sang guard-chapter banner-230p

sang priest w/jp

4 attack bikes w/MM

3 Preds AC/LC

 

Any ideas? He both shoots and fight very hard....and the thunderwolves are very hard to kill, only a S10 weapon can kill them

and the wolf lord is a beast

[Corby]

I play against the kind of space wolves list you mention regularly. Its a tough list to take on (As namely it has both good assault units and a decent range fire base) but its definitely not as scary as it looks.

 

To start with I see a glaring lack of troops in your list. 2 10 assault marine squads at this points level is not okay. You're relying on your assault marines to push forward and fight , yet they'll likely be killed/mauled or be out of position at the end of the game to capture objectives. I also see a glaring weakness in your list for handling massed infantry and MEQ. This means you'll struggle to pump enough wounds into his grey hunters to cause any serious problems for your opponent. Your auto/lascannon predators should focus fire on the thunderwolves while they're still at range to soften them up , if he hides them behind rhinos focus the rhinos first crippling the grey hunter's mobility , this means he'll hit you either A) The thunder wolves alone and unsupported in the 2nd or 3rd turn where they can be overwhelmed (The troop issue is again glaringly obvious here as you're risking your troops in a risky engagement where they may all be killed or reduced by large numbers and picked off later by the long fangs) and brought down or ;) he'll wait for his grey hunters to move to a position to support the thunderwolves before engaging giving you longer to shoot them. From what you've listed the thunderwolves don't seem to have stormshields. That makes hurting them with Ap2 alot easier. The high strength of the autocannon will also let you inflict a decent number of wounds on the thunderwolves.

 

You can also use a number of tricks to mitigate the effectiveness of the his thunderwolves to protect your assault marines : such as tank shocking two tanks from to opposite angles at the thunderwolves (See my crude diagram below.). If they flee then lucky you , then escort them off the board , however when performing this tactic assume they'll pass that pesky leadership check.

 

Tank shock like so: (before tank shock)

 

T T T T (thunderwolves)

T

 

 

 

 

V (vehicle 1) V (vehicle 2)

 

After tank shock:

 

 

T T T T

V V

T

 

The thunderwolves maintain coherency and can be changed , but can't pile in around the tanks.

 

 

I play against the kind of space wolves list you mention regularly. Its a tough list to take on (As namely it has both good assault units and a decent range fire base) but its definitely not as scary as it looks.

 

To start with I see a glaring lack of troops in your list. 2 10 assault marine squads at this points level is not okay. You're relying on your assault marines to push forward and fight , yet they'll likely be killed/mauled or be out of position at the end of the game to capture objectives. I also see a glaring weakness in your list for handling massed infantry and MEQ. This means you'll struggle to pump enough wounds into his grey hunters to cause any serious problems for your opponent. Your auto/lascannon predators should focus fire on the thunderwolves while they're still at range to soften them up , if he hides them behind rhinos focus the rhinos first crippling the grey hunter's mobility , this means he'll hit you either A) The thunder wolves alone and unsupported in the 2nd or 3rd turn where they can be overwhelmed (The troop issue is again glaringly obvious here as you're risking your troops in a risky engagement where they may all be killed or reduced by large numbers and picked off later by the long fangs) and brought down or ;) he'll wait for his grey hunters to move to a position to support the thunderwolves before engaging giving you longer to shoot them. From what you've listed the thunderwolves don't seem to have stormshields. That makes hurting them with Ap2 alot easier. The high strength of the autocannon will also let you inflict a decent number of wounds on the thunderwolves.

 

You can also use a number of tricks to mitigate the effectiveness of the his thunderwolves to protect your assault marines : such as tank shocking two tanks from to opposite angles at the thunderwolves (See my crude diagram below.). If they flee then lucky you , then escort them off the board , however when performing this tactic assume they'll pass that pesky leadership check.

 

Tank shock like so: (before tank shock)

 

T T T T (thunderwolves)

T

 

 

 

 

V (vehicle 1) V (vehicle 2)

 

After tank shock:

 

 

T T T T

V * V *(Gap between tanks is enough to allow thunderwolces to maintain coherency but not enough to allow thunderwolves to pass through.

T

 

The thunderwolves maintain coherency and can be charged , but can't pile in around the tanks so your full squad brings its weight of attacks on the thunderwolvs while your opponent hits back with one or two thunderwolves at most if done correctly. But you'll want the a regular thunderwolf to be exposed with this method so you can obliterate the squad.

 

The long fangs can be dealt with by using your attack bikes to tie them up in combat (if you get the chance to charge them that is) their higher toughness and multiple wounds should tie them up. Alternatively you can hide your predators behind terrain or obscure the long fang's line of sight to them. Av 13 with a cover save is difficult to long fangs to get through unless your opponent rolls extremely well. If you've successfully de-meched your opponent's grey hunters then they're of little concern till the final turns when they move on objectives. At this point if things have gone accordingly and you've mopped up the rest of your opponents army your assault marines can mop up the grey hunters. (Use two squads to obliterate one if you have chance).

 

A priest would help in this role as you could strike at a higher initiative and negate the risk of your opponents grey hunters performing well and beating your assault marines down , as the high volume of S5 I5 attacks should beat them down.

 

hope this helps.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Drop at least one Predator and add 2 Sanguinary Priests for that amout of Infantry you got there.

 

In a next step, I'd drop the Predators completely and get some Vanguard Vets in there for the Longfangs and some DC for the Thunderwolves, but that's just me.

 

If you don't want to change your list, you basically have to hope for first turn and make sure his LF won't have LoS to anything of yours. Then, concentrate all of your fire in one round of shooting on the Thunderwolves which means 6 lascannons, 3 Autocannons and 4 MM and kill them. As there are no stormshields in that unit(besides the Lord) you should be able to kill 2 or three(if they don't have coversaves, that is).

 

Countercharge. Lure the TW out of cover and smack them with the SG and the assault squads. You should really add at least one priest w/ JP.

The Libby is nice for some S10 attacks in CC, or Rage for an assault squad. I have found Fear a very useful power against anything, so why not try it on the LF if in range? Works great on TW as well!

 

For the Grey Hunters, get FC and FnP(= a Priest) and you won't have any problems defeating them. Crack open the Rhinos and assault them with your Librarian and Reclusiarch attached ASM.

 

I'd leap from cover to cover with your jumpers, supported by the Attack Bikes and Predators. For example, if you think it worthy to move(which you should), screen your jumpers with the Preds in front of them and pop smoke. With FnP, you should be laughing at Frag, and the Preds are quite survivable against Krak missiles with a 4+ coversave.

 

 

Again, I'd add something even scarier than TW as your assault element, but you actually had to change your list completely which is probably not good constructive criticism. ;)

 

 

Snorri

[khurdur]

when I say libby/reclusiarch/capt I mean one of them, not all three !

 

Anyway, I like having an elite unit, the sang guard. Having 3x10 asault marines seems kind

of bland. I find dropping preds leaves us with no long-range firepower ! The problem with the

thunderwolves is that you need to inflict over 5 wounds to remove one as they can play wound

allocation. So I just play around and play maneuvering and pounce on his units in big red and

gold gangbang?

 

Any way in bloodhammer list like this for massed anti-infanrty firepower?

[Corby]

when I say libby/reclusiarch/capt I mean one of them, not all three !

 

Anyway, I like having an elite unit, the sang guard. Having 3x10 asault marines seems kind

of bland. I find dropping preds leaves us with no long-range firepower ! The problem with the

thunderwolves is that you need to inflict over 5 wounds to remove one as they can play wound

allocation. So I just play around and play maneuvering and pounce on his units in big red and

gold gangbang?

 

Any way in bloodhammer list like this for massed anti-infanrty firepower?

 

A bloodhammer list features devastators and assault marines , not predators. Your list is a hybrid blood angels list. Baal predators can provide anti-infantry firepower and can suppress light mech. However the issue would be where to find the points for this.

[AbusePuppy]

You definitely want some Sanguinary Priests and probably some more troops as well; ASM are excellent against Grey Hunters and Thunderwolves when properly supported.

 

He's basically relying on having efficient guys and T5 to beat the enemy, but there are a number of weaknesses to his plan. For example, ASM charging any of his units with a Priest in range will strike ahead of everything but his Lord and hit/wound on 4s; since Thunderwolves just have a 3+ save, you can do a lot of damage just by forcing wounds on him in this way. Likewise, if you're striking ahead of his troops and have FNP, you are going to best him in a fight pretty easily.

 

Also, keep in mind that he has no psychic defense and poor morale (Ld8) on most all of his units. Tank Shocks, Pinning, and Morale will all cause problems for him much more often than for normal Space Marines- remember to make him take those Ld tests when they come up, especially when wrecking a tank!

 

His Long Fangs will be annoying, but Your Predators are all but immune to their shooting and you should be able to wear them down if necessary. Make sure your ASM have cover and you won't really have any real problems. (12 missiles = 8 hits = 7 wounds = 3 failed cover saves each turn, and it should only take you two turns to get to combat if he's moving forward.) If you're really worried about them Baal Predators, especially AC/HB versions, can do a ton of damage to them.

[NICS]

I play a wolf player with this list all the time too. I can't think of a time I haven't tabled him. Your two best weapons against space wolves are Baal preds with flamestorm cannon and fear of the darkness.

 

If you swap the preds out for baals he shouldn't get a chance to shoot his long fangs. If you can get double fear on the board the thunder wolves will turn into cowardly mutts much faster than tank shocking will ever be.

 

You can now dedicate the baals to the long fangs. Libby/s to fear the wolves (if they are not assaulting they are not that fast). Attack bikes to pop the rhinos then you can assault/flamestorm or fear what's in the tanks.

 

Works for me every time. Only difference is I run 3-4 las/plas razorbacks. Don't even think we have rolled for turn 6 yet.

[khurdur]

Forgot to mention I do have one sang priest....BA can't leave home without him!

Its just that wolves shoot at lest as hard and fight at least as hard, if not harder...would death company take the thunderwolves out? Its just then I'd need a delivery system for them, changing the dynamics of the list.

The prblem is I always try to use a take all comers list, so sometime specialized armies have the upper hand.

[SnorriSnorrison]

DC will rip them apart, period. Get a Chaplain(or better yet, Lemartes) in there, some PWs and you're good to go! As your opponent gave his Lord a PF, he will strike at init 1, so you won't have any problems with him regarding the striking order. In your case, probably a Rhino will have to do, about 7 marines with different special weapons and a Reclusiarch for good measure. Just keep in mind that you need to think one or two turns ahead when fielding a non-assault-ramp vehicle.

 

Wolves don't fight harder, actually. They have good all-round troops, and the TW are quite nasty but inefficient if countered correctly.

Their armour save is their weakness. Take lots of AP2/3 weapons, PW, Fists and such(or even a Furioso dread!) and go get them with FC. Done that quite often, I must say. They don't stand a chance against a combined assault by a Dread and SG for example. Or even DC.

 

Their troop choices are, as mentioned, good at shooting at good at assault(for marines). It's just that we are better at assault and about equally good at shooting regarding special weapons(such as Meltaguns.). I'm referring to ASM obviously.

 

Instead of your current HQ, you could try something different...for example, drop one Pred, the libby and try Mephiston. Lots of S10 re-rolling attacks at init 7 with a potential threat range of 24". Very good against anything. T6 means no insta-kill by some rockets, and with FnP nearby he is just invulnerable to non-AP attacks.

 

The aforementioned Baal Preds with AC and HB are also a very nice option. two of them are really deadly to a lot of things.

 

 

 

Snorri