Orphus Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 G'day guys and gals I have a question: Are the Space Wolves Great Companies assigned numbers eg. First Company, Second Company. The reason I ask is because we have twelve Great Companies here at The Fang each with their residing Wolf Lord's name taken as the Company name. But we also have a thirteenth Company, but we don't use that Wolf Lord's name for that we call it the Thirteenth Company. So then Kjarl Grimblood would be the 12th Great Company, Sven Bloodhowl would be the 11th, Ragnar Blackmane the 10th all the way down to Bran Redmaw having the 1st great company. The thing is though that say, the Ultramarines' 1st company are more pronounced/experienced than their later companies I think so this would not make sense for Space Wolves. Thoughts? :EDIT: Yes, it's nowhere in the codex but I wonder if other Space Marines or Imperials would call the Great Companies by their number. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247003-space-wolves-great-companies/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 The Great Companies aren't numbered. There's just always been Twelve, with the Thirteenth kept vacant to honor those lost or fallen. Also, when a Wolf Lord is killed, the leadership goes to the next in command, usually a WG from the WL's own retinue. At that point, the company often takes on a new name/emblem, so the thought of even attempting a numbering hierarchy in the companies would be moot. For what matters, just consider them as clans. :EDIT:Yes, it's nowhere in the codex but I wonder if other Space Marines or Imperials would call the Great Companies by their number. For the other Imperials/Astartes, SWs are called a lot of things, from barbarians to Wolves, but perhaps the most proper "rank and file" moniker they could be given would be the Sixth Legion, since SWs would likely all be considered of the same ilk (pelt-wearing brutes -- with tribal markings too confusing to distinguish), and therefore there'd be no consideration to them being distinguished by separate companies.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247003-space-wolves-great-companies/#findComment-2990320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonSTeR Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 There's a note in the main rule book that states that Ragnar's company is the second company. Edit - Or rather that a company with the Blackmane emblem on a yellow background is the second company... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247003-space-wolves-great-companies/#findComment-2990342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Which book? The SW codex or the BRB? Either way, there could be other interpretations to that. Ragnar is believed to be the next Great Wolf after Logan, hence why one of his nicknames is the Young King as well as lore-derived rumors that he's next in line. So his company named "second" could just mean he's next in line. Another meaning could just be an inaccurate Imperial perception, believing that since Ragnar's company is used often as a spearhead for SW campaigns (having mostly to do with GW's product promotion/painting trends), they perceive his company as second only to Logan's own because they need a hierarchy to make sense of SW structural organization. Regardless, other than this mention (I'd still like to know where from), I've never seen any other notion of a hierarchy other than Logan's Great Company on top and the others ranking beneath him as equals. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247003-space-wolves-great-companies/#findComment-2990348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myxx Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I would say that an "Imperium-friendly" numbering system would be fluid at best. There is mention of the SW Great Hunt IIRC where there is literally a great hunt, and the successful Lords are arranged from best hunters to least, with the least playing the part of "serving wench" and a new hierarchy is established at regular intervals based on these Hunts or similar challenges... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247003-space-wolves-great-companies/#findComment-2990360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pall Ironbear Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Prospero Burns and Battle of the Fang both make reference to the companies being numbered. Page 29 in BotF mentions "Rekki Oirreisson, Jarl of the Seventh". But these don't put any extra significance to the numbers. My opinion is that they do have numbers, with the newest or "youngest" wolf lord's company being 12. But to the outsider, used to codex marines, the numbering system wouldn't make sense due to each company's make up and order of battle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247003-space-wolves-great-companies/#findComment-2990385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Yes, they are also numbered in the Battle of the Fang. My particular GC is named the Elva (11th) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247003-space-wolves-great-companies/#findComment-2990395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khine Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I would say any numbering would be purely for an outward appearance. I would say that a long fang from say the "8th" company would still hold more regard than say a grey hunter from the "3rd". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247003-space-wolves-great-companies/#findComment-2990439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonSTeR Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Which book? The SW codex or the BRB? Either way, there could be other interpretations to that. Ragnar is believed to be the next Great Wolf after Logan, hence why one of his nicknames is the Young King as well as lore-derived rumors that he's next in line. So his company named "second" could just mean he's next in line. Another meaning could just be an inaccurate Imperial perception, believing that since Ragnar's company is used often as a spearhead for SW campaigns (having mostly to do with GW's product promotion/painting trends), they perceive his company as second only to Logan's own because they need a hierarchy to make sense of SW structural organization. Regardless, other than this mention (I'd still like to know where from), I've never seen any other notion of a hierarchy other than Logan's Great Company on top and the others ranking beneath him as equals. It's referenced in the main rulebook, on p 134 "Chapters of the Space Marines". There are three chapters singled out for more detailed description, the UltraMarines, the Blood Agels and the Space Wolves. Specific reference is made to pictures of five different marines. "Tactical Marine, Ultramarines 2nd Company", "Tactical Marine, Bood Angels 3rd Company", "Assault Marine, Blood Angels Death Company" and then "Grey Hunter, Space Wolves 2nd Company" and "Blood Claw, Space Wolves 2nd Company" This different reference of the Death Company implies that where a number exists, it is applied; thus ragnar Blackmane's company (or another company with the same iconography) is the 2nd company and thus the Great Companies are numbered. It also shows two marines of different squads of the Space Wolves but the same company having different shades of grey on the armour. Which is probably just as significant, demonstrating that the uniforms are not definitively uniform. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247003-space-wolves-great-companies/#findComment-2990497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 The other difference is codex marines promote marines on to other companies as they specialise or show promise. scouts are promoted out of the scout companies Devastators join devastator companies etc This gives the top companies a higher status/ skill level This does not seem to happen in the Space wolves. Other than the Great wolfs Company there does not seem to be a difference of rank between the Companies or lords Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247003-space-wolves-great-companies/#findComment-2990567 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I would think, arguing from common sense and how proud the Wolves can be, that the Company of the Great Wolf would be regarded as the First Great Company but the others would not feature such a designation. Such designations could be seen as ranking one above another, and hierarchy seems to play a large part in the Wolves and also you have the idea that when a Wolf Lord dies and another, with less prestige, takes over then you have a Second Great Company, for example, led by a "relative nobody". The above makes sense to me, if it otherwise appears to be jibberish.. I have a head ache :o Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247003-space-wolves-great-companies/#findComment-2990571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I would think, arguing from common sense and how proud the Wolves can be, that the Company of the Great Wolf would be regarded as the First Great Company but the others would not feature such a designation. Such designations could be seen as ranking one above another, and hierarchy seems to play a large part in the Wolves and also you have the idea that when a Wolf Lord dies and another, with less prestige, takes over then you have a Second Great Company, for example, led by a "relative nobody". The above makes sense to me, if it otherwise appears to be jibberish.. I have a head ache :o Nope there is no Indication in the Space wolf Fluff that there is "codex" style Ranking system among the wolf lords and their companies. Each company is fully equiped fighting force designed to fight indepently of each other. Where codex companies have reserve and scout companies whose intended role is to supplement the more senior Companies. Most presige of the higher ranking codex companies come from the fact that you can be promoted to it. In the Space Wolves promotion happens with your great company with the exception of joining the Great wolves company. Plus the blood claws seem to have an element of choice of which they join according to Armies of the Imperium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247003-space-wolves-great-companies/#findComment-2990575 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schertenleib Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 The Companies do appear to be numbered as shown in Prospero and Battle of the Fang. The Rout does not follow the strict guidelines of the Codex, though. I would believe that the numbers are simply for identification purposes and have no bearing on status or rank. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247003-space-wolves-great-companies/#findComment-2990619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 The Companies do appear to be numbered as shown in Prospero and Battle of the Fang. The Rout does not follow the strict guidelines of the Codex, though. I would believe that the numbers are simply for identification purposes and have no bearing on status or rank. I think it should maybe be differentiated between eras when these possible numbering hierarchies were used. The Prospero Burns and BotF books were Heresy-era and it could stand to reason that along with armour changes, etc, other things such as a full abandonment of the Astartes codex structure may have occured as well. Also, let's not forget that even as early as in 2nd edition, Chapter organization has already been altered. Scouts were formerly mentioned to be recruits (as standard Astartes structure dictates) and were placed in the Great Wolf's company. Just an example, as other minute changes are strewn here and there, but as GW has proven time and again, they change their own lore in literal whimsy it seems, so even if there were numbering hierarchies, I wouldn't expect them to hold up to today's Chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247003-space-wolves-great-companies/#findComment-2990806 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myxx Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Heresy-era means pre-Codex Astartes, so any BotF or Prospero Burns references to Codex based numbering would be anachronistic at best... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247003-space-wolves-great-companies/#findComment-2990867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonSTeR Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 The Companies do appear to be numbered as shown in Prospero and Battle of the Fang. The Rout does not follow the strict guidelines of the Codex, though. I would believe that the numbers are simply for identification purposes and have no bearing on status or rank. I think it should maybe be differentiated between eras when these possible numbering hierarchies were used. The Prospero Burns and BotF books were Heresy-era and it could stand to reason that along with armour changes, etc, other things such as a full abandonment of the Astartes codex structure may have occured as well. Also, let's not forget that even as early as in 2nd edition, Chapter organization has already been altered. Scouts were formerly mentioned to be recruits (as standard Astartes structure dictates) and were placed in the Great Wolf's company. Just an example, as other minute changes are strewn here and there, but as GW has proven time and again, they change their own lore in literal whimsy it seems, so even if there were numbering hierarchies, I wouldn't expect them to hold up to today's Chapter. In the current issue of the game, at least one of the companies IS numbered in the 40K era, the 2nd. Your expectations are proven wrong in the most canonical of tomes: The main rulebook. It mght change in 6th edition, but until then... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247003-space-wolves-great-companies/#findComment-2990903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Your expectations are proven wrong in the most canonical of tomes: The main rulebook. Except the golden rule where the Army codex supercedes the BRB. Again, the mention in the BRB could be an Imperial perception. Another example would be the IA vol 11 inconsistencies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247003-space-wolves-great-companies/#findComment-2990914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonSTeR Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Your expectations are proven wrong in the most canonical of tomes: The main rulebook. Except the golden rule where the Army codex supercedes the BRB. Again, the mention in the BRB could be an Imperial perception. Another example would be the IA vol 11 inconsistencies. And where in the codex does any information directly contradict the representation of numbered companies in the MRB? Exactly... Oh and the description of the "first/second founding issue" in IA11 shows the level of faith that should be instilled into these types of things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247003-space-wolves-great-companies/#findComment-2990928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Colossus Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I assumed that in M32, when the BoTF happened, the Codex had been implemented ( Wolf Brothers CHAPTER being formed as proof of this). Surely this is POST-heresy? The Great Company in it is noted as being the Twelfth. This isn't a general imperium view, it's directly referred to by the Wolves themselves. I literally just finished reading it five minutes ago. Awesome book. I'm discounting the Prosperous Burns as a source, it is definitely Heresy era, and the splitting of the Space Wolves into the Wolf Brothers would have altered the Chapters structure anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247003-space-wolves-great-companies/#findComment-2991056 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Brother 92 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 BoTF is at least M32-M35 and certainly not before, as Bjorn is interred in his dreadnought sargophagus (he was interred M31) as Colossus said before me, the Wolf Brothers had been formed AND disbanded. Also on page 241.B (it's the picture page next to pg 241) it has nearly all the Great Companies numbered: 1) Ironhelm (Great Wolf), 2) Salvgrim, 3) Morskarl, 4) Kjarlskar (reserve), 5) Vraksson, 6) Rjak, 7) Oirreisson, 8) Gunnlang, 9) Hoskuld, 10) Thorlakk and 11) Ulfar (reserve) - only one is missing that of 12) Jarl Vaer Greyloc who is back home on fenris at the time - on the back of the book it specifically stats "++Jarl Vaer Greyloc, Twelth Great Company...++". I still believe that whilst we don't conform to the Codex ideals of organisation and each Great Company has a certain amount of autonomy, there is still a numbering system, more to keep track of each Company in the event of a Lord's death - fer instance if Erik Morkai died then until his successor is elected they would simply be the [__]th company, this allows for the Great Wolf to have greater knowledge whilst not actually being anything hierachical. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247003-space-wolves-great-companies/#findComment-2991090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Colossus Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 BoTF is at least M32-M35 and certainly not before, as Bjorn is interred in his dreadnought sargophagus (he was interred M31) as Colossus said before me, the Wolf Brothers had been formed AND disbanded. Lexicanum places it at M32, and it's stated in the book to be two hours and years after the heresy, which is how I think lexicanum dates it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247003-space-wolves-great-companies/#findComment-2991109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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