Augustus Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Its hard for me! ADB Gave me my favorite quote of the series. "Loyalty is its own reward" and now I have megalomaniac Primarch.. ;((((( I think I am upset at now the fate of the Lion is once again murky. Maybe now he dithers to see who will win? Perhaps like Curze there are two personalities in the Lion. One beast, one man Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2991177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 The one certain thing was that the Lion's story wasn't going to be all black and white. He's distant from his warriors, he sent most calibanites home with little in the way of a good reason, he was tricked by Perturabo while harbouring a hope of becoming Warmaster... This should be interesting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2991201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 My thoughts, with spoilers as needed. Overall, it struck me as a fine beginning to a Dark Angels/Lion El'Jonson novella. I find it far better than "Kadillus" in terms of use of characters, mood, etc. THINGS I LIKED: 1. As others mentioned, this is very much the Lion we saw in "Savage Weapons", but readers who didn't like "Fallen Angels" beware: the themes Mike Lee introduced (read: possible paranoia, trust issues, the need for a trusted Astartes to serve as a judge of character) are very much in place. I say this because I found it curious that certain posters celebrated the supposed abandonment of DoA/FA when their themes are so very much alive. 2. The Lion's depiction as a tactical genius continues. Coupled with his deeds in "Fallen Angels", it's a given now that he has an incredible intellect and can translate that to incredibly dangerous, but also brilliant maneuvers. Unable to shake the pursuit of a Night Lords vessel employing some unknown means of tracking them through the Warp, the Lion has the Invincible Reason reverse course through difficult Warp conditions and enact a sudden translation back to realspace, dragging the enemy vessel with them and leaving them vulnerable to an attack. THINGS I FELT NEUTRAL ABOUT: 3. Nemiel's death can pretty much be attributed to amazingly bad timing. It's already been established that the enemy they faced was "all but impossible to confront" and trying to get to their warp core. With only six individuals aboard the Invincible Reason capable of destroying said enemy, Nemiel's decision to suddenly disobey the Lion's orders was ridiculous. THINGS I DIDN'T LIKE: 4. Nemiel's transition from Chaplain as "inspirational leader" to "anti-sorcery fanatic" struck me as kind of forced. Even in "A Thousand Sons", there was a clear delineation between "sorcery" and the psyker powers wielded by Librarians. Nikaea occurred BEFORE the events of "Fallen Angels", and Nemiel didn't display any fanatical "anti-Librarian" tendencies there. As such, that whole scene just felt like an excuse to make the Lion look ominous/ruthless. Maybe there will be a good reason for that later. I don't know. 5. I didn't like how the Dark Angels were depicted against the Daemons invading their ship. Corswain was a CHAMPION, and his reaction to invading Daemons is fear, nervousness, and an instinct to retreat. By contrast, see "Horus Rising", how Loken and his men react to Samus. Nevermind the fact that Horus points out that the Luna Wolves HAD fought creatures of the Warp before, and without any issues of morale. Or look at "False Gods", when the Luna Wolves (and Maggard) take on the necrotic beings of Nurgle. Or "Know No Fear", ... and the reaction of Ventanus and his men to Samus. Anyways, here's hoping it stays good/gets better! ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2991285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Its hard for me! ADB Gave me my favorite quote of the series. "Loyalty is its own reward" and now I have megalomaniac Primarch.. ;((((( I think I am upset at now the fate of the Lion is once again murky. Maybe now he dithers to see who will win? Perhaps like Curze there are two personalities in the Lion. One beast, one man I agree with Semper,by calling him megalomaniac you barely scratch the surface.The marines are a military outfit.During a war the slightest disobedience of a superior officers orders can warrant you a summary execution,and yes i am not speaking about the imperial guard i am speaking about OUR real armies when deployed on war.I can imagine this is multiplied x100 considering the astartes psycho conditioning and general mentality.If a menial officer has such a power why would it seem megalomania when we are speaking about a primarch?A superior being that some people come close to venerate as a living god? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2991319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 It's not megalomania to execute a soldier for disobeying, obviously. The pleasure the Lion seems to have displayed in doing so, however, and when coupled with his apparent lust for command (becoming the grand master of the Order in Luther's place, aspiring to become the Warmaster, "my authority is absolute") do seem to suggest it though. Of course, I'm relying on third party information on this latest development, so... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2991331 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I don't think that scene had anything to do with megalomania. Chapter III of the story states that the Lion had a determination "bordering on hunger" to secure a victory. It's obvious that Thramas and the Heresy were weighing heavily on him. Killing a disobedient Nemiel probably gave him a momentary release that brought pleasure in that he was able to act directly against a present target. The Lion's own words - to Perturabo, to Curze, and to Guilliman (well, his intentions, where the last is concerned) - show that lust for command was not a factor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2991347 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 How exactly were the daemons impossible to be destroyed by regular means? They take a sword to the head as badly as any human. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2991502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vazzy Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Sigh, to be honest, I don't understand the hate our two HH novels get. Were they the best, by any stretch, No. But they were the very first 40k books I read, so they hold s place in my heart, so Nemiel was a favorite character of mine. Seeing him go out like this was a disappointment to say the least. I also agree with Phoebus on the demons, Hell, we come Fon a tainted planet, I'd think a great beast would resemble a demon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2991547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 to be honest, I actually like the first book, I personally appreciated the insight into Calibanite life, for a Calibanite, not a Primarch or an Imperial, but a true Calibanite Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2991560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Matter of expectations I suppose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2991684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexagon Sun Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 After reading this I feel the same way I have after reading anything by Gav Thorpe. I like some of the ideas but his writing comes across like a 6th form essay, awkward and stiff. I just find it hard to get immersed in any of his stories and i'm pretty disappointed that he's left to continue writing for the DA's. Doesn't fill me full of hope for his upcoming trilogy either. With regard to the actual story, I agree with a few comments that have been made already. The retreat from deamons was ridiculous, I don't see this happening in any other Horus Heresy novels so why now... Just smack them on the head? It almost seems like he's shoehorned it in there to push the rest of his story concept. Which was 'I want the Lion to kill Nemiel... hmmm how can I do that...'. If they could kill the daemons then he couldn't justify the disagreement with Nemiel, which again seems completely forced as mentioned previously. I understand the need for there to a bit of conflict in the Lions character, but it's a bit sudden and unsubtle. The whole smile thing was probably yet again Gav just winding people up like AoD to try to create some drama. One good thing to come out of it is that we won't have the inevitable showdown between Nemiel and Zahariel on Caliban when their loyalties are torn between their friendship and Luther/The Lion. Anyways, all just my opinion and I know that a lot of people feel the other way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2991710 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Didn't Luther put a bolt round in Zahariel? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2991744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexagon Sun Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 No that was Israfael when he disagreed with Luther going against the Lion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2991746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Carmine Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I don't think that scene had anything to do with megalomania. Chapter III of the story states that the Lion had a determination "bordering on hunger" to secure a victory. It's obvious that Thramas and the Heresy were weighing heavily on him. Killing a disobedient Nemiel probably gave him a momentary release that brought pleasure in that he was able to act directly against a present target. The Lion's own words - to Perturabo, to Curze, and to Guilliman (well, his intentions, where the last is concerned) - show that lust for command was not a factor. Not to mention the fact that Curze's words about the loyalty of the Dark Angels Lion are preying on the Lion, just look at his suspicions of the ships captain. Now while his ship is being invaded by warp creatures, and confirmation that only Psychic's can reliably combat these creatures, this Chaplain is pushing for the death of one of three Librarians on board, and is defying the Lion's orders to the contrary. I'm suprised only at the Lion's loss of control implied in his execution of Nemiel, but not that Nemiel was punished for his mutiny, though I admit I was expecting him to be restrained or imprisoned. It will be interesting to see how his Terminator bodyguards take this. As for the retreat. Inital weapons fire appears to be non effective, and when sealed off they begin to burn through the door as more materialise around him. Corswain then recognises them as kin to the most dangerous predator of Caliban and you are suprised that he orders a retreat. He's not a sucidal bezerker, as far as he can tell he is unable to defeat these foes so he pulls back. The warp rift they are in combined with the geller field not functioning could well be boosting the strength of these demons compared to those fought on Davin. I don't have Flight of the Eisenstein to hand, so correct me if I am wrong, but weren't the warp animated corpses more powerful while the ship was in the warp, and defeated after they had reverted to realspace? Is the next Hammer and Bolter out yet! :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2991751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Now while his ship is being invaded by warp creatures, and confirmation that only Psychic's can reliably combat these creatures, this Chaplain is pushing for the death of one of three Librarians on board, and is defying the Lion's orders to the contrary. Now see, if these points were mentioned in the spoilers, some people *cough*me*cough* wouldn't be reading too much into this execution and making fools of themselves *cough*entirelyme*cough*. :P I still say the Lion has a distinct love for being in control of matters though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2991760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexagon Sun Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Not to mention the fact that Curze's words about the loyalty of the Dark Angels Lion are preying on the Lion, just look at his suspicions of the ships captain. Now while his ship is being invaded by warp creatures, and confirmation that only Psychic's can reliably combat these creatures, this Chaplain is pushing for the death of one of three Librarians on board, and is defying the Lion's orders to the contrary. I'm suprised only at the Lion's loss of control implied in his execution of Nemiel, but not that Nemiel was punished for his mutiny, though I admit I was expecting him to be restrained or imprisoned. It will be interesting to see how his Terminator bodyguards take this. As for the retreat. Inital weapons fire appears to be non effective, and when sealed off they begin to burn through the door as more materialise around him. Corswain then recognises them as kin to the most dangerous predator of Caliban and you are suprised that he orders a retreat. He's not a sucidal bezerker, as far as he can tell he is unable to defeat these foes so he pulls back. The warp rift they are in combined with the geller field not functioning could well be boosting the strength of these demons compared to those fought on Davin. I don't have Flight of the Eisenstein to hand, so correct me if I am wrong, but weren't the warp animated corpses more powerful while the ship was in the warp, and defeated after they had reverted to realspace? If the Lion had actually sent Luther et al home to Caliban for any other reason than "improving recruitment" then this must also be eating away at him if he did in fact suspect Luther following the Sarosh incident. But I think it's also the out of character reaction of Nemiel and lack of build up to this point which is why it seems very OTT in general. That's a very valid point in Eisenstein they were more powerful whilst in the warp, but i'm fairly certain Garro and his troops were still managing to dispatch some of them and it was weight of numbers that made them drop into realspace. In the short story the ship wasn't fully in the warp which I think is probably what makes it more frustrating. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2991771 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 From Gav Thorpe's Blog: Of the Lion and the Heresy… Can’t get enough Dark Angels action? Big fan of the Horus Heresy? Desperate to know just what the Lion got up to after his encounter with Konrad Curze in Savage Weapons? Starting with the next issue of Hammer and Bolter, you can get a preview serialisation of my novella from The Primarchs anthology, The Lion. Not convinced? Here’s what Aaron Dembski-Bowden had to say about it: I loved The Lion, man. I just f**king loved it, start to finish. I think it’s the best thing you’ve ever written. Lots of manlove to you, if I didn’t have a baby on the way already I would want to bear yours,* Aaron Of course, Aaron could be going insane, what with his imminent spawning, but the only way to prove him wrong is to read the novella for yourselves. And do you want to wait until June? Really? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2991963 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I wouldn't go as far as that from the first installment... Let's wait for the second! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2991967 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 After reading this I feel the same way I have after reading anything by Gav Thorpe. I like some of the ideas but his writing comes across like a 6th form essay, awkward and stiff. I just find it hard to get immersed in any of his stories and i'm pretty disappointed that he's left to continue writing for the DA's. Doesn't fill me full of hope for his upcoming trilogy either. I quite agree with this. I think it has to do with us being around so long, writers seem to think everytime they do a DA story there needs to be a major failing on our part in order for the bad guys to have a chance and to build our 'character'. Also the plot lines are soooo shallow when compared to other chapters stories. Compare Kadillus to that UM Short story (forgets name) where they are having a 'training' fight vs WEs. The Captain there is shown to be a true tactical genius at a global level where Belial (who is also supposed to be smart) almost gets done in at company level ground battle vs orks. Really writers---- please up the IQ level of our stories before we are dumbed down to being complete fail. s Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2992002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Kadillus was an opportunity missed. What could have been a great novel turned out to be meh... BUT no harm was done to the DA mythos. I think the the "Lion" story looks good so far (very good may I add) and I find the negative critique a bit harsh. It's all subjective in the end obviously. I'm so looking forward for a decent book about the Lion I'm prepared to let minor things go as long as the overall direction is to my liking. And so far it is. Very. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2992016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Yup, the general direction is VERY much to my liking too, I just think the writers need to do more than just think -I need to include x number of events (like killing N etc...), write them in --done. A well written story will have those same events happening is a much more complex and varied way, often hidden among red herrings and twists in the plot line and the events are logical and have been developed through hints and inuendo earlier in the stories. I'd like more than 'the DA have been tricked yet again into chasing the Fallen or the AL or some Daemons etc,etc,etc and now they need to be ruthless to each other and/or some innocents to drag out a stalemate or minimise their losses'. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for grimdark and have no problem with losing but I'd like to see us as a bit smarter and less reactive even if the bad guys do gain the upper hand from time to time. Another example springs to mind, the Lion spends a lot of time sitting staring pondering strategies with his fingers against his lips, but he doesn't seem to be proactive at all, he just chases shadows for several years---FAIL. If he was truly a great stragegist he would have a grand plan regardless of his imperfect knowledge of the NL plan. I'm no writer but stories that go abcdefg.......... are a bit predictable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2992037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Having read both Kadillus recently, followed shortly by the first part of the Lion (so I could produce something better than remarks about perceived traits based on spoiler highlights), I have to say "dumbing down" characters is a habit of Gav's. In Kadillus, there are several instances of the DA's behaving in manners more akin to rookies than battle-brothers of several centuries (Boreas' reprimands tended to originate from such issues). He also tends to rush parts of his stories unceremoniously, and so far the HH featuring our Chapter have had (judging mainly by Descent) a more ponderous narrative. Still, I'm curious to see how the Lion copes with striking down one of his "little brothers" in a moment of unrestrained anger (even if Nemiel was being an idiot). Perhaps he'll begin to distrust himself? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2992051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexagon Sun Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I really like the general direction so far as well, I think I might possibly just hold off and read the whole thing when it's in The Primarchs instead. I'll probably be less critical when I can see it all in full instead of what's essentially a snippet! To be fair to Mr Thorpe, he did have the problem with Kallidus in that it was based on the campaign from Storm of Vengeance so it was already a bit limited. But Namaan aside, I still think it was a very lackluster effort which hardly leaves you thinking "Dark Angels, :yes: YEAH!" after it's all over. Helsreach is a good example though, at the end despite all the losses you still end up thinking Grimaldus is a badass. It almost made me want to collect Templars! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2992359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I'll agree with the sentiment that the direction is a good one. I definitely like how he continued using the elements introduced in Savage Weapons. A little conjecture but as for warp beasts on their home turf - the warp - I would assume they would be nigh unstoppable by normal means. We really can't say for sure how "in" or "out" of the warp the ship was while inside the rift. Besides being something that as simple mortals we should have a hard time comprehending, there really isn't much to go by. As for the Eisenstein situation, I'd guess that a reanimated corpse, be it in the warp or real space, is different than an actual full fledged denizen of the warp. The bodies themselves are still of the material world and subject to it's rules. But as stated, I would suspect them to be stronger IN the warp as the energies holding them together can do so with ease. That said, any time a Space Marine shows a moment of fear or doubt, I am given pause. I had a similar problem with the short story about Little Horus. But, if we are to give it some credence, I'd simply say that the warp is capable of anything. It can affect even some the hardest minds in some way. This was a foe that Corswain was not only unprepared for but totally unaware what it was in the first place. We must remember that previously many inhabitants of the Imperium, including Space Marines, had no idea that the warp was the hell it actually is. Other than the more obvious issues which are already being discussed, I did notice that for the first time we are also told that the DA will wear the pelts of Calibanite beasts (whatever they may be). An interesting little detail to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2992618 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Agree to disagree, I guess. In the first two novels, Loken qualifies that the threat of the denizens of the Warp is no real secret. He cites previous battles with them (three or four occasions, actually). It's possession that freaks him out. And in "Know No Fear", Samus is just as unphased by the Ultramarines' weaponry as the creatures Corswain fights aboard the Invincible Reason are. But for some reason, in every other instance in the Horus Heresy series, each and every Legion's warriors are able to overcome initial shock and horror and fight against all odds. Given this, Corswain's flight was disappointing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/2/#findComment-2992665 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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