Augustus Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I thought he runs over after saying: I saw him go down or something of that sort Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2994222 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 It's like Savage Weapons...The Lion got his bottom handed to him by Curze but Coswain was very heroic. According to ADB, he intended that fight to be a draw I don't disagree with your assessment, just giving you the authour's POV Corswain is interesting in his role as a proven Champion and Senchal. As much of the heart of the Legion as any of his peers, Calabanite or Terran. Even more interesting, is the fact that former Captain Alajos names him the greatest swordsman in the Legion. In a Legion of swordmasters, he is the one whose life guards the Lion's honour. He is the bearer of the Champion's Mantle. That is pretty cool. It specifically says that not even the Terran Astelan matched him. After reading Savage Weapons, I thought Alajos was the greatest swordsman and Corswain was #2 (#1 after Alajos fell) Are you getting all this info about Corwain from the new novella? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2995301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted February 18, 2012 Author Share Posted February 18, 2012 Age of Darkness Page 397 "In his own Legion, only two knights had managed to beat him in the sparring circles... The other was Corswain, Paladin of the Ninth Order, bearer of the Mantle of the Champion." There is a lot of build up about how spectacular Alajos is, and he claims that he is within the top 20 fighters within the known astartes, but also states that there are better in his Legion, which says a lot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2995355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Age of Darkness Page 397 "In his own Legion, only two knights had managed to beat him in the sparring circles... The other was Corswain, Paladin of the Ninth Order, bearer of the Mantle of the Champion." There is a lot of build up about how spectacular Alajos is, and he claims that he is within the top 20 fighters within the known astartes, but also states that there are better in his Legion, which says a lot. I'd have to disagree. He states that two other DA have "managed to beat him". That doesn't necessarily mean Astelan and Corswain are able to beat Alajos consistently. It could mean Astelan and Corswain aren't as good but are still good enough to beat Alajos every now and then. It could mean they're evenly matched (close to 1:1 win-loss ratio). It could mean they beat him consistently (although I think the word "managed" suggests otherwise). Corswain does bear the Mantle of the Champion, but I don't know if the champion is necessarily the best close combat fighter of his legion. Of course, he should definitely be one of the best. Moreover, I think the title of champion is usually given to the best non-officer marine. In 40K, the champion isn't necessarily better in close combat than the chapter master or an elite captain. Another example...in Fall of Damnos, Gaius Prabian (a non-ranking marine) is the champion but I think Captain Sicarius is the "better" fighter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2995630 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted February 18, 2012 Author Share Posted February 18, 2012 I'd have to disagree. He states that two other DA have "managed to beat him". That doesn't necessarily mean Astelan and Corswain are able to beat Alajos consistently. Of Alajos Page 395 "He was also one of the finest swordsman in the First Legion, and had once lasted almost a full minute in a spar with his Primarch. He suspected the number of Legiones Astartes warriors capable of besting him numbered fewer than twenty across all Legions." This clearly states that Alajos was one of, the finest swordsman. If he was the best, it would have said that. This is shortly followed with the comment in the story that goes out of its way to point out two other DA's who have bested him. The second sentence applies to the skill of Corswain and Astellan, as it also states that both have bested Alajos. By association, it would also mean that Astellan and Corswain are in that list of 20, which would include the best in all the Legions Ie (Abaddon, Erebus, Sevetar, Sigismund, Raldoran, Ahriman, Khârn, Gabriel Santor, Jubal Khan, Typhus, Agapito, Ingo Pech, Vespasian and the rest). Another strike against Alajos' skill, is that he had his skull/jaw/face caved in by Sevatar at Kruun. To be fair, Alajos is also dead, leaving us with only two mentioned characters of equal skill. With all of the available information Corswain stands the best of what we have seen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2995656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 so, we have 3 of the best swordsmen that are normal Astartes. Thats pretty cool, of you ask me. Or had, seeing as Alajos got killed. But still, whose to say we dont have another couple of almost as good marines. And this implies the Lion is one pretty epic sowrdsmaster. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2995679 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Of Alajos Page 395 "He was also one of the finest swordsman in the First Legion, and had once lasted almost a full minute in a spar with his Primarch. He suspected the number of Legiones Astartes warriors capable of besting him numbered fewer than twenty across all Legions." If he's the best, he'd have to be one of the best, no? To me, "one of the best" is an indication that Alajos, Astelan, and Corwain are the top 3 and that it's hard to rank them clearly because they're all extremely good. To me, the use of the phrase "one of the best" is not a clear indication that Astelan and Corswain are consistently better than Alajos. What we know is that those two have "managed to beat him" before. Another strike against Alajos' skill, is that he had his skull/jaw/face caved in by Sevatar at Kruun. You yourself admit that we don't know how Sev won. We don't know what factors contributed to Sev's victory. Sev is no doubt highly skilled but Night Lords are also famed for fighting dirty. However, I will admit this: Alajos was aware that it was Sevatar who had struck him down. It's unlikely that Sev completely blind-sided him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2995682 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 It's like Savage Weapons...The Lion got his bottom handed to him by Curze but Coswain was very heroic. According to ADB, he intended that fight to be a draw I don't disagree with your assessment, just giving you the authour's POV Yes, I know... We had this discussion with ADB in Warseer... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2995737 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Yes, I know... We had this discussion with ADB in Warseer... I agree with you. Curze clearly got the better of the Lion in that battle. The Lion had to be saved by Corswain. Had there been no outside intervention, chances are very high that the Lion would've been killed. The intention in the author's head is one thing, the actual words on the page are another. ADB has said this on another forum: But how many squillions of fights between heroes/characters/protagonists/villains have we seen where the guy on the losing side has a second wind (cracking a rock against the head of the guy strangling him) and turns the tide a moment later. It happens all the time. These are warriors that can fight for days and days. Yet another mortal wound is nothing to them.. . . What's to say the Lion wouldn't have had a surge of energy (like, well, in every single similar fight between main characters in any novel and movie) and hurled Curze off, or rammed a dagger into the guy's armour joints? Doesn't that seem much more obvious than "The word 'slack' means the Lion was a dead man"? . . . The real fight between them is obviously yet to come - and all we know about that is that the Lion manages to slit Curze's throat. I'm not buying it, but others might. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2997992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vazzy Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 As much as it pains me to admit it, the Lion was losing...badly. And, unfortunately for myself, and the First Legion, we read aloud Savage Weapons at the shop a few weeks ago. Now, our primarch gets bashed by the like 6 night lords at my shop. It's irritating. Ive attempted to challenge them to personal combat, but they have refused. :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2998009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 As much as it pains me to admit it, the Lion was losing...badly. And, unfortunately for myself, and the First Legion, we read aloud Savage Weapons at the shop a few weeks ago. Now, our primarch gets bashed by the like 6 night lords at my shop. It's irritating. Ive attempted to challenge them to personal combat, but they have refused. ^_^ Don't take that - Curze was ultimately killed by an Callidus assassin. Though we are told he allowed it, in the ends he is still dead at the hands of a mortal. He might as well have took his own life. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2998023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 As much as it pains me to admit it, the Lion was losing...badly. And, unfortunately for myself, and the First Legion, we read aloud Savage Weapons at the shop a few weeks ago. Now, our primarch gets bashed by the like 6 night lords at my shop. It's irritating. Ive attempted to challenge them to personal combat, but they have refused. ^_^ Don't fret. The Dark Angels are better in everything, and I mean it literally. Better at operating in secrecy, better at standing and fighting, better at torture, better at loyalty (let's not be too critic of this last bit) ... :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2998030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vazzy Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 As much as it pains me to admit it, the Lion was losing...badly. And, unfortunately for myself, and the First Legion, we read aloud Savage Weapons at the shop a few weeks ago. Now, our primarch gets bashed by the like 6 night lords at my shop. It's irritating. Ive attempted to challenge them to personal combat, but they have refused. ^_^ Don't take that - Curze was ultimately killed by an Callidus assassin. Though we are told he allowed it, in the ends he is still dead at the hands of a mortal. He might as well have took his own life. Believe me brother, I have the bit from Blood Reaver practically memorized. It does little. But it is of no matter. I've defeated two on the tabletop, and two in honor duels in our LARP club, granted I exercise a lot, and these guys only run when we charge... But hey a wins a win Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2998038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 As much as it pains me to admit it, the Lion was losing...badly. Well, you could always quote Mr. Bowden, who seems to have many reasons for why the Lion wasn't losing badly But how many squillions of fights between heroes/characters/protagonists/villains have we seen where the guy on the losing side has a second wind (cracking a rock against the head of the guy strangling him) and turns the tide a moment later. It happens all the time. These are warriors that can fight for days and days. Yet another mortal wound is nothing to them.. . . What's to say the Lion wouldn't have had a surge of energy (like, well, in every single similar fight between main characters in any novel and movie) and hurled Curze off, or rammed a dagger into the guy's armour joints? Doesn't that seem much more obvious than "The word 'slack' means the Lion was a dead man"? . . . The real fight between them is obviously yet to come - and all we know about that is that the Lion manages to slit Curze's throat. Also remember that the Lion slits Curze's throat in a subsequent encounter Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2998067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vazzy Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 As much as it pains me to admit it, the Lion was losing...badly. Well, you could always quote Mr. Bowden, who seems to have many reasons for why the Lion wasn't losing badly But how many squillions of fights between heroes/characters/protagonists/villains have we seen where the guy on the losing side has a second wind (cracking a rock against the head of the guy strangling him) and turns the tide a moment later. It happens all the time. These are warriors that can fight for days and days. Yet another mortal wound is nothing to them.. . . What's to say the Lion wouldn't have had a surge of energy (like, well, in every single similar fight between main characters in any novel and movie) and hurled Curze off, or rammed a dagger into the guy's armour joints? Doesn't that seem much more obvious than "The word 'slack' means the Lion was a dead man"? . . . The real fight between them is obviously yet to come - and all we know about that is that the Lion manages to slit Curze's throat. Also remember that the Lion slits Curze's throat in a subsequent encounter i did not know that. Where is this from? The above quote? Or ADB? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2998078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 i did not know that. Where is this from? The above quote? Or ADB?stated by ADB on another forum, he's a member of this forum too (you can confirm with him)But how many squillions of fights between heroes/characters/protagonists/villains have we seen where the guy on the losing side has a second wind (cracking a rock against the head of the guy strangling him) and turns the tide a moment later. It happens all the time. These are warriors that can fight for days and days. Yet another mortal wound is nothing to them.. . . What's to say the Lion wouldn't have had a surge of energy (like, well, in every single similar fight between main characters in any novel and movie) and hurled Curze off, or rammed a dagger into the guy's armour joints? Doesn't that seem much more obvious than "The word 'slack' means the Lion was a dead man"? . . . The real fight between them is obviously yet to come - and all we know about that is that the Lion manages to slit Curze's throat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2998098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droma Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Dead Blue Clown is ADB's name on warseer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2998212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 As much as it pains me to admit it, the Lion was losing...badly. And, unfortunately for myself, and the First Legion, we read aloud Savage Weapons at the shop a few weeks ago. Now, our primarch gets bashed by the like 6 night lords at my shop. It's irritating. Ive attempted to challenge them to personal combat, but they have refused. :woot: Don't take that - Curze was ultimately killed by an Callidus assassin. Though we are told he allowed it, in the ends he is still dead at the hands of a mortal. He might as well have took his own life. Believe me brother, I have the bit from Blood Reaver practically memorized. It does little. But it is of no matter. I've defeated two on the tabletop, and two in honor duels in our LARP club, granted I exercise a lot, and these guys only run when we charge... But hey a wins a win Good. You do just as the Lion would, with actions, not words. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2998234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 i did not know that. Where is this from? The above quote? Or ADB?stated by ADB on another forum, he's a member of this forum too (you can confirm with him)But how many squillions of fights between heroes/characters/protagonists/villains have we seen where the guy on the losing side has a second wind (cracking a rock against the head of the guy strangling him) and turns the tide a moment later. It happens all the time. These are warriors that can fight for days and days. Yet another mortal wound is nothing to them.. . . What's to say the Lion wouldn't have had a surge of energy (like, well, in every single similar fight between main characters in any novel and movie) and hurled Curze off, or rammed a dagger into the guy's armour joints? Doesn't that seem much more obvious than "The word 'slack' means the Lion was a dead man"? . . . The real fight between them is obviously yet to come - and all we know about that is that the Lion manages to slit Curze's throat. I agree with ADB. Given another moment, and no interference from Corswain, the fight could have turned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2998236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I agree with ADB. Given another moment, and no interference from Corswain, the fight could have turned.I can agree to disagree. The following is my opinion... The Lion's neck was described as "slack" Each detonating shell kicked like a warhorse, knocking him off-balance, but he could focus on nothing but the Lion lying in the dirt, his slack neck in a heretic’s grip. Is a primarch's neck "slack" while he's conscious and struggling? Unlikely in my opinionOn the contrary, if the primarch were choked unconscious (or close to unconsciousness), the description would be far more apt A valid counterargument would be that Corswain was projecting his fear. The Lion's neck wasn't slack. Corswain's was just so anxious for his primarch's safety that he saw everything in the worst light. Oh, and in case you guys are feeling bad for the Lion, ADB has also said this on Warseer: I mention in my Night Lords novels that Curze has a slit throat from when the Lion beats the snot out of him later in the Thramas Crusade. And incidentally, the Dark Angels will win the Thramas Crusade against the Night Lords. The story Savage Weapons was merely the first time the primarchs meet, not the only time, let alone the definitive time. And all we know about the other time(s) is that at some point, the Lion cuts Curze's throat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2998251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexagon Sun Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 As much as it pains me to admit it, the Lion was losing...badly. And, unfortunately for myself, and the First Legion, we read aloud Savage Weapons at the shop a few weeks ago. Now, our primarch gets bashed by the like 6 night lords at my shop. It's irritating. Ive attempted to challenge them to personal combat, but they have refused. ;) Stuff like this is what makes me avoid gaming with anyone that I'm not friends with as it just really rubs me up the wrong way. A bit of gentle ribbing occasionally is fair enough but anything more is just plain boring and they really need to change the record. At the end of the day it's a game in a made up universe, who cares that much! Slightly related story... I was waiting to get served at the till in the local GW a few weeks back with my Ven Dread then some guy I don't even know was standing behind me and all I heard was "Huh, my Wraithlord is much better than that" in a scoffing sort of tone so I was just like "...". I imagine the bashing to go along much the same lines which makes it all the more infuriating. As for the Lion/Curze fight, it just does literally boil down to a :D swinging contest between DA and NL which is pointless, you can never please everyone and something had to happen to end the fight. If the shoe was on the other foot and you knew that later on The Lion had his throat cut by Curze and the DA lost the Thramas campaign would you be more bothered? Try to see it for the bigger picture if it helps, I was actually more unhappy about Alajos as i'd prefer some more DA characters we can get behind! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2998404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 @1bsoul Yes, I suppose we can agree to disagree though you counter argument does work well. I would however warn against drawing a conclusion from one word - "slack" in this case. This was a fight to the death and "slack neck" certainly does not denote death. For all we know that is exactly what the lion wanted. And that's the point, we don't know. The fight was interrupted an therefore ended in a draw. There is no argument against that. No one died, therefore no one won. ADB did put an element of doubt in there for sure (evident in the fact that people across the interweb even bothered to argue this). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2998601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 As for the Lion/Curze fight, it just does literally boil down to a :D swinging contest between DA and NL which is pointless, you can never please everyone and something had to happen to end the fight. If the shoe was on the other foot and you knew that later on The Lion had his throat cut by Curze and the DA lost the Thramas campaign would you be more bothered? Try to see it for the bigger picture if it helps, I was actually more unhappy about Alajos as i'd prefer some more DA characters we can get behind! Yes, it does seem that the Dark Angels will eventually emerge victorious over the Night Lords, and the Lion will hurt Curze very badly (more than paying back Curze for almost strangling him). This was a fight to the death and "slack neck" certainly does not denote death. To me, "slack" denotes consciousness/near-unconsciousness. At the very least, it denotes great physical weakness on the Lion's part while he was being strangled. The word is there and we can't just ignore it. It has to mean something. I really don't know how else to interpret it. Another reason I view Curze as dominating the fight: 1) when Curze is choking the Lion and banging his head against the ground, Curze's advantage is described as "crystal clear" by the authour 2) but more importantly, when Corswain stabs Curze and Curze struggles to get Corswain off his back, the Lion does nothing to Curze within that time-frame. To me, that indicates the Lion is "out of it" while Curze is distracted by Corswain. In my mind's eye, he's lying barely conscious in the dirt. If the Lion were still struggling gamely when Corswain intervened, you'd think he'd take advantage of that respite by attacking the distracted Curze (possibly ending the fight then and there). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2998660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Yea, I saw those points made over on heresy-online (which is also where I was reading ABD's comments). Are you posting over there as well? Points which can't really be debunked, I'll add. But I think the biggest problem the authors have with this stuff is that the outcomes have already been written. The Lion couldn't just get up and finish the fight because that's not the established lore. I suppose ABD needed a clear out, and that's the path he took. But I do agree, Curze dominated the second half of that fight. The next fight will be no different, even if the tables are turned, a battle to the death that we all know can only end in another draw. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2998683 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Yea, I saw those points made over on heresy-online (which is also where I was reading ABD's comments). Are you posting over there as well? Points which can't really be debunked, I'll add. Yes. I realize my opinions are just my opinions. People can disagree for perfectly valid reasons. I'm not afraid of disagreeing with a popular authour though it might be unpopular to do so. But I do agree, Curze dominated the second half of that fight. The next fight will be no different, even if the tables are turned, a battle to the death that we all know can only end in another draw. I'd love for ADB to write their second encounter. The guy has a wicked turn of phrase and his writing is always vivid and engaging. I hope he allows the Lion to shine in their next fight. Maybe the Lion will behave less arrogantly this time and go straight for the kill (well, we'll have to settle for a near-kill). I do think the Lion rather underestimates Curze during their first combat. The guy talks a lot of smack while he fights...he's also great at sucker-punching/sucker-stabbing people :sweat: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/247005-part-3-the-finale-of-the-lion-novella-horus-heresy/page/4/#findComment-2998709 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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