Part 3 - The Finale of The Lion Novella - Horus Heresy

[Captain Semper]

That exchange of banter rubbed me the wrong way.

 

Ermmm, sorry my English is failing me here. What do you mean? I hope I did not offend you in some way?

[ForTheLion]

i just bought the ebook hammer and bolter issue 17 but the file is corrupt :teehee: sent an Email to GW but they havent replied so far, looks like il have to go look around for some torrents...really looking forward to reading it based on the comments i read here though!

[EPK]

That exchange of banter rubbed me the wrong way.

 

Ermmm, sorry my English is failing me here. What do you mean? I hope I did not offend you in some way?

 

No at all. I was agreeing with you.

 

I meant that I did not like the banter between the Lion and Cruze because as you put it, it was out of character for the Lion.

[EPK]

i just bought the ebook hammer and bolter issue 17 but the file is corrupt :teehee: sent an Email to GW but they havent replied so far, looks like il have to go look around for some torrents...really looking forward to reading it based on the comments i read here though!

 

On the Black Library site - If you go to "my account" and than "my downloads" on the bottom of the left panel, it may show up and you can redownload it I believe.

 

On a side note, (maybe you know this) you actually need a eReader of some sort to read it. You can't just open it.

[Phoebus]

You see, here's what bugs me: How do you define the better fighter? To me it's the one that wins in the end of the day. The Lion sure looks to have better command of technigue and swordmanship on the theoretical level. But if you can't win in the end then frankly, you are not a better fighter... Mental conditioning matters and is also a basic ingridient for winning the day.

I typically adopt an "all else being equal..." approach, and from there I keep an open mind toward other mitigating factors. So, all else being equal (and thus focusing on just pure skill/prowess), it's clear the Lion is the better fighter. Beyond that, people will make mistakes - no one is perfect. Sometimes, those mistakes will determine the result of a fight (or battle - or war, even). Pyrrhus and Hannibal alike overestimated the support they would receive from Italians and Greeks alike, and their expeditions failed. I'm not aware of any historian who asserts that their Roman counterparts were better military commanders, though.

 

Assuming the Lion underestimated Curze (actually I'd expect the Lion to be waaay more calculative than that - this is Fulgrim kind of attitude) it automatically takes something away from his personality -not to mention his fighting ability. My stance is: why should it be that way? This is not how the Lion is portrayed so far (through the ages) but more like a cold-headed, calculating individual that leaves nothing to chance. Looking down at his opponent (who happens to be a Primarch no less) is, to me, completely out of character.

I think that sometimes we fall in the trap of forgetting that, when we read a story, we get to compress someone's experiences in just a few hours and we (inaccurately) superimpose our perspective over that of the protagonist. This is especially dangerous with a short story, where you get a rather condensed, brief introduction about what the character has been up to.

 

So, for us, the Lion might appear to be slipping when he underestimates Curze. Consider the context, though. For the past two years, Curze has been more or less running from the Lion. He has simply been taking advantage of the fact that the Aegis sub-sector has more planets and "real estate" than the First Legion has manpower to effectively cover it. He's a traitor who made a career out of terrorizing and brutalizing people into submission. His greatest victory was a cowardly blow against three Primarchs who thought him to be their ally. When faced with real war he's done all he can to avoid a foe who is capable of facing him down on equal terms. He quips and jibes.

 

That's what the Lion has had to deal with. We know that Primarchs aren't immune to psychology, and thus I can totally see how, after so much time, the Lion would eventually hold his brother in nothing but contempt.

 

And Corswain is a hero because of that. This is what put Corswain on the map for me. Not so much for stabbing a Primarch in the back (which is huge in itself) but because he overcomes the aura of Curze, fights back all that the SMs have been indctrinated to do just to save his Primarch from certain death. If his Primarch did not need saving - then Corswain is just a crazy marine getting in the way of two fighting Primarchs to do his bit. I don't like to think this is the case.

Corswain is a likeable character, which is why I was disappointed by his instictive reactions in "The Lion". In neither case would I think him to be just a crazy Marine, though. The way the Astartes seem to fade into the background when Primarchs fight each other just strikes me as dramatic license: the "Homeric method", if you will, like when the Achaeans and the Trojans step back to let Ajax and Hector duel it out. "Galaxy in Flames" and "Fulgrim" showed us, though, that Astartes are more than capable of facing Primarchs in combat - they just don't stand a chance, is all. Corswain's leap into the fray is no less heroic for this, but it's by no means unprecedented!

 

We are mostly on the same boat here. However even if we take the 1-1 mastery away from him, according to earlier arguments, he lost not because of lack of swordplay ability but for basically underestimating his opponent. Which clashes with him being strategist and tactician.

Some of the greatest commanders in history have occasionally underestimated their foe, fallen victim to their own hubris, etc, though.

 

Also the fact that he lost his cool in the end, :P... Just no... This short story had great beginning and great ending but the fight between the Lion and Curze was completely wrong in my view. If Curze had to win for some reason he should be given some unfair adanvtage... Just my 2c.

I, too, felt that way.

 

This darkness, I don't mind. As many have noticed, I like my Dark Angels, ermmm, dark. ;) Even more so in the 40k context. And the Lion has yet to fail me in Gav's novella! Let's see how it plays out in the end. ;)

Some folks have a favorite "Loyalist" Legion/Chapter and a favorite "Traitor" Legion/Chapter. That includes me. What I've noticed is that a lot of people like the Dark Angels because it gives them access to both, or at least s nice shade of gray. Personally, what I loved about "Savage Weapons" was the definitive moral stand taken by the Lion. Concurrently, I'm less a fan of the 40k depiction of the Dark Angels as sneaky and sinister and more appreciative of Lee Lightner's in "Sons of Fenris" - sinister Interrogator-Chaplain balanced by noble and honorable members of the Deathwing and line Companies alike.

 

Back to the Heresy era, I felt that ADB perfectly married Astelan's raving suspicions with an honest reason for the Lion not being able to join the fight. Gav's take strikes me as an unnecessary - and unwanted, in my eyes - regression. Honestly, I don't know how much I would enjoy the Dark Angels if it turned out that the Lion went paranoid to the point of sitting on the sidelines. :(

[EPK]

I felt that ADB perfectly married Astelan's raving suspicions with an honest reason for the Lion not being able to join the fight. Gav's take strikes me as an unnecessary - and unwanted, in my eyes - regression. Honestly, I don't know how much I would enjoy the Dark Angels if it turned out that the Lion went paranoid to the point of sitting on the sidelines.

 

If you speaking to the fact that the Lion is treating all other Legions, traitor or not, as a possible threat, I'd say that is certainly a logical reaction. His forces are out on the far of galaxy and have heard scant amount of the full situation it would seem, not to mention he has already been duped once. I'd say it's too soon to really call where Gav is going with the Lion. I also find his improtu execution of Nemial warranted, though I'm not fully certain he even meant to do it.

[Phoebus]

The Lion is aware of Isstvan V. Treating the Iron Hands the same as two of the Legions they fought against in that battle strikes me as trying too hard to reinforce a theme (in this case, distrust and/or paranoia).

[EPK]

The Lion is aware of Isstvan V. Treating the Iron Hands the same as two of the Legions they fought against in that battle strikes me as trying too hard to reinforce a theme (in this case, distrust and/or paranoia).

 

A fair point, but this is only a detachment which may have even been stationed their prior to Isstvan. Just as surely as there are Loyalists form Traitor Legions, there could be Traitors from Loyal Legions. Of course he also knows that the Iron Heads are openly hostile with the Death Guard in the system, yet he still specially states that there is no clear way to know who fights for who.... In other words, what if Death Guard are actually the loyalist here (Seems unlikely, but still plausible).

[Phoebus]

And that's all I'm getting at. It's a stretch, and it seems like a heavy-handed way to reinforce the concept of the Lion's paranoia.

[Captain Semper]

[

This darkness, I don't mind. As many have noticed, I like my Dark Angels, ermmm, dark. :D Even more so in the 40k context. And the Lion has yet to fail me in Gav's novella! Let's see how it plays out in the end. :D

 

Some folks have a favorite "Loyalist" Legion/Chapter and a favorite "Traitor" Legion/Chapter. That includes me. What I've noticed is that a lot of people like the Dark Angels because it gives them access to both, or at least s nice shade of gray. Personally, what I loved about "Savage Weapons" was the definitive moral stand taken by the Lion. Concurrently, I'm less a fan of the 40k depiction of the Dark Angels as sneaky and sinister and more appreciative of Lee Lightner's in "Sons of Fenris" - sinister Interrogator-Chaplain balanced by noble and honorable members of the Deathwing and line Companies alike.

 

Back to the Heresy era, I felt that ADB perfectly married Astelan's raving suspicions with an honest reason for the Lion not being able to join the fight. Gav's take strikes me as an unnecessary - and unwanted, in my eyes - regression. Honestly, I don't know how much I would enjoy the Dark Angels if it turned out that the Lion went paranoid to the point of sitting on the sidelines. :D

 

I think there is a misunderstanding here. My perception of DAs being dark is not that they are borderline Chaos. They are loyal. But here’s is the thing: Their methods and their commitment to the motto “the ends justify the means” make them do things that are unjustifiable for a loyal Chapter. The only way to justify them is to see things 100% their way. Be one of them. They left an Imperial world to die just to follow a lead on the Fallen? They had to do it! Are they torturing an ex-member of their kind that does not even see himself as a traitor? Of course they had to do it (Fallen scum :D) Did the Lion had to overrule the Emperor’s orders to save his ship/mission – damn right! No authority but our own where it comes to getting the job done.

 

This is not a morally solid position (by 2k standards anyway). In fact it is close to the definition of amoral. To me they are like the Cold War-era Security/Intelligence Agencies (and how these are portrayed in pop-culture) where only the end mattered. And the agency itself was worth preserving no matter the extent of cover-ups or other unsavory actions that needed to take place. The entire history of the DAs post Heresy is a huge cover-up. What if they are defenders of humanity most of the time? This “most of the time” means that their agenda (that has nothing to do with humanity’s well being) takes precedence. The rest are just noise and keeping up appearances.

 

Capturing the Fallen is the greatest service they can offer the Emperor. This is a “dialogue” if you like between the DAs and the Big E himself. The duties they have to humanity or the High Lords is just a nuisance they have to accommodate.

 

That’s what I mean by “dark”. You are either one of them (the Chapter is all that matters) thus justifying everything or you’re not in which case (assuming you know the truth) you cannot find any redeeming elements to morally justify their actions. Dark enough? :D

 

Being outright evil (Chaos) is easy to position against (like or dislike). Being morally ambiguous is much more difficult. That’s why I like DAs.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I think abandoning worlds is few and far between, though. How many times do we need to commit more than a single squad of DW to capture ONE fallen whose hiding?

[Phoebus]

I think there is a misunderstanding here. My perception of DAs being dark is not that they are borderline Chaos. They are loyal.

Don't worry, I wasn't pointing fingers at you, Captain. It was more of a generalized summary of a number of peoples' viewpoints. :)

 

But here’s is the thing: Their methods and their commitment to the motto “the ends justify the means” make them do things that are unjustifiable for a loyal Chapter. The only way to justify them is to see things 100% their way. Be one of them. They left an Imperial world to die just to follow a lead on the Fallen? They had to do it! Are they torturing an ex-member of their kind that does not even see himself as a traitor? Of course they had to do it (Fallen scum ;)) Did the Lion had to overrule the Emperor’s orders to save his ship/mission – damn right! No authority but our own where it comes to getting the job done.

 

This is not a morally solid position (by 2k standards anyway). In fact it is close to the definition of amoral. ... The entire history of the DAs post Heresy is a huge cover-up. What if they are defenders of humanity most of the time? This “most of the time” means that their agenda (that has nothing to do with humanity’s well being) takes precedence. The rest are just noise and keeping up appearances.

 

Capturing the Fallen is the greatest service they can offer the Emperor. This is a “dialogue” if you like between the DAs and the Big E himself. The duties they have to humanity or the High Lords is just a nuisance they have to accommodate.

I look at it quite differently.

 

I think the Codex sums it up quite nicely: "This would be the true mission of the Inner Circle, and through its machinations, that of all of the Sons of the Lion." There is thus no doubt that, for the Inner Circle, the "true mission" of the Chapter is to end their millennia of shame by hunting down and capturing all the Fallen in order to force them to repent.

 

But does this inform the whole Chapter, its ethos, its perspective, etc.? I would say no. Much of what we're talking about - torture, abandoning worlds, etc. - informs only the highest echelons of the Inner Circle... and even then covertly, not overtly. Where the Dark Angels as a whole are concerned, to 90% (or so) of the Chapter, their duties to Humanity are anything BUT a nuisance, keeping up appearances, etc. Fighting Xenos, smashing down heretics and traitors, and standing between human beings and the horrors of the Warp is very much their sacred calling.

 

The difference between them and the Inner Circle, I think, is one of tenure and the moral degradation that comes with it. Most Dark Angels will never join the Deathwing or the Inner Circle. Why? Because most will die fighting the enemies of the Imperium. That's the unending war that defines most of them. Inevitably, though, as the centuries pass, a Fallen will surface and the members of the Inner Circle might have to make a difficult decision to bring him down. See, for instance, Gatlinghive. That sort of decision makes or breaks members of the Inner Circle, but it also corrupts them morally. Interrogator-Chaplain Vargas and Nestor became what they were because they were willing to let others suffer for the sins of their ancestors.

 

For most Dark Angels, though, such a decision would be repugnant and horrific - and that's precisely why they're kept out of the loop. That's why I think there's a fundamental difference between those who belong to the Inner Circle and those who don't, in terms of personality, morality, etc. The majority of the Chapter is informed by a viewpoint much like Jeremiah's from "Sons of Fenris", I think, as opposed to Nestor's. I'd posit that even most of the Deathwing spend their careers fighting missions they can be proud of - fights like those against Elucidax the Keeper for instance, never really having to choose between the well-being of Humanity and the secrets of the Chapter.

 

That’s what I mean by “dark”. You are either one of them (the Chapter is all that matters) thus justifying everything or you’re not in which case (assuming you know the truth) you cannot find any redeeming elements to morally justify their actions. Dark enough? :lol:

Warning: sidetrack on my part! :)

 

As to the latter and morally justifying the Dark Angels' actions, I think a lot of the GW fluff is informed by the fanaticism - even insanity - that informs the grimdark Imperium of 40k. And that "grimdark" sense often stands in contrast with the depiction we get from Black Library novels. I wanted to mention this because this conversation often sees an intersection between these two entities, which pit out often very different products about the same milieu (where the fluff is concerned).

 

What I mean by that is, the novels we read typically show more or less stable, personable, coherent individuals whose viewpoints we can (more often than not) at least somewhat reconcile with. But if you flip through the core rulebooks and see the artwork and quotes that depict what the Imperium and its agents are really like (at least in GW's eyes), I think we can gauge the actions of the Angels of Redemption at Gatlinghive with a completely different perspective.

[Candleshoes]

The new Hammer and Bolter is available for pre-order now, which means that Part 2 of 'The Lion' is right around the corner.

 

I will post up another 'spoiler summary' for this part of the novella on the first page, for those who don't have access to the digital download, but still want to discuss the events.

[Cactus]

Copies of the Primarchs were on sale at Warhammer World on Saturday so I've now read the whole story. I won't spoil anything, but once it spreads we won't be discussing Corswain's courage or analysing the Lion's skill with a sword. I re-read the final two pages carefully a few hours later and it blew my mind. It connects with existing story threads in exciting ways.

[Arioch]

Really Cactus? Thats...thats not fair. I want to read it NOW, but its so long before it is released :wacko:

Arrh, cant wait, cant stand the excitement! Any hints or leads?

[Cactus]

I've had a couple of requests for details so I'll write up a summary (similar to Candleshoes' work at the start of this thread) and either send it via PM or post it here under spoiler tags.

[Vazzy]

I'm sure most of us wouldn't mind it here under spoiler tags.

[Cactus]

Ok then, you asked for it. I think I've covered every major plot point so don't complain to me if you take a peek and learn more than you wanted to know.

 

These come from a copy of The Primarchs so cover parts 2 and 3 of the Hammer & Bolter serialisation.

 

 

As suggested by part one's cliffhanger, the Lion and the psykers lead eight forces against the demons. After surveying his varied array of weapons (Gav was busy with a thesaurus here!) the Lion arms himself with a matched pair of swords from Caliban named Hope and Despair. He fairly quickly outpaces his force but can handle fighting dozens of demons.

 

Corswain's force, with Lady Fiana, is the first to reach the warp core where the demonic infestation is strongest. There they encounter a two-headed Lord of Change who turns Lady Fiana's blast of warp energy back at her, taking her out of the fight. The greater demon entrances the Dark Angels and asks to speak with the Lion. When he arrives the Lion is forced to parley or the demon will kill Corswain. As they talk the Lion slowly circles the demon, as he would one of Caliban's great beasts.

 

In their conversation, the following revelations are made:

The demon has “been searching for you for a long time, Lion of Caliban.”

The Lion feels something familiar in the demon's presence: “Yes, that is true. I have come to you before.”

The Lion asserts that the demon has nothing to offer him.

The demon notes that he can't offer power, as the Lion's ambition “is woefully stunted for one of your abilities.... You even sacrifice your own to stay true to the memory of what once was.” [i believe this is a refence to his stubborn prosecution of the war against the Night Lords.]

Instead the demon offers freedom as the Lion does “not care for these lesser beings.” [The demon's words.]

The demon is confident that Chaos always endures and that the Emperor's works are as vulnerable as any of mankind's past achievements.

 

The demon has been transfixing Corswain with one head while watching the Lion with the other. It has to swap its heads over to follow the Lion's circling path, which gives our primarch an opening. The demon is despatched but you'll have to read those details for yourself ;-), the Lion restores the warp engines, the Geller field is raised and they resume their journey. I found this a bit anticlimactic frankly, possibly because Gav's fight scenes are as unengaging as they were in Purging of Kadillus. Luckily the plot becomes more meaty when we reach the Perditus system.

 

On Perditus Ultima the Iron Hands are attempting to “secure the Tuchulcha engine.” The Death Guard, led by Typhon, aim to “free Tuchulcha”. The two sides are locked in a stalemate.

 

The Lion trusts neither side – not all members of the traitor legions have turned, and who knows what the Iron Hands' motives are after they lost their primarch at Istvaan. His forces are sufficient to defeat both foes so he steams right in and demands and end to hostilites, backing this up with a threat to destroy the facility with cyclotronic torpedoes.

 

The chief tech-priest, High Magos Iaxus, has an electoo showing a dragon coiled tightly about itself. The Lion asks its meaning, saying he thought he was familiar with all the Mechanicum's symbology. Iaxus says it is just “a childish totem”. The electoo was inactive, so it was only primarch super-senses that enabled the Lion to see it, and it was faint to his eyes. Hmm, C'Tan.

 

Iaxus takes The Lion to a subterranean room and introduces him to Tuchulcha, an alien device that had somehow held the Perditus system in thrall until the Dark Angels and Death Guard brought it to compliance. Mortarion and the Lion apparently never liked each other but were making a show of unity for the Emperor. Tuchuchla is “a sophisticated machine” and, since the Lion was last on Perditus, the tech-priests have found a way to connect the device to a servitor, enabling it to communicate directly. The servitors age unnaturally so they're using a boy. The Lion is uncomfortable with this after fighting to free Perditus from slavery but suppresses his distaste.

 

Tuchulcha can sense minds and asks the Lion ”How do you cope with such a burden?”

“My intellect?”

“Your guilt.”

The Lion is reluctant to reveal anything in front of Iaxus and changes the subject. It transpires that Tuchulcha has impressive warp powers and he teleports himself, Iaxus and the Lion to the Invincible Reason, and also put the whole Dark Angels fleet in the warp! The usual risks of translation near to a planetary body are not an issue for Tuchulcha.

 

The Iron Hands on Perditus were too far from Istvaan to be present at the drop site massacre and subsequently made contact with the Ultramarines. They were sent by Guilliman, who is “gathering all loyal forces at Ultramar”, to prevent Tuchulcha falling into the wrong hands.

 

The Lion accuses Typhon of working without Mortarions knowledge/consent, otherwise he would have brought enough troops to break the deadlock.

 

The Lion decides to destroy Perditus Ultima, and Tuchulhcha with it, and orders everybody else to get lost.

 

Typhon, who has been exercising his psychic powers since Istvaan, sorcerously teleports into the facility to steal Tuchulcha. He didn't do this before because he wasn't aware that Tuchulcha was awake and he doesn't have enough power to make the return trip himself. Tuchulcha refuses to leave because he has been waiting for the Lion to return. Clearly he could have escaped had he wanted to, so must have some other motivation. Tuchulcha sends Typhon back to his fleet, and his fleet some safe distance from Perditus! Typhon thinks he has failed but realises that his actions set in motion some series of events that suits “the grand design of the Father.” His reward is the Mark of Nurgle, who wants the love and loyalty of every Death Guard and of Mortarion most of all.

 

The Lion takes Tuchulhcha and gives the Iron Hands a message for Guilliman: “Tell him to wait for me. I am coming.” The final scene is half of a dialogue in his empty audience chamber. His mysterious conversant is not audible so we only have the Lion's side of the conversation [Oh Gav, how you tease us!]:

 

He intends to use Tuchulhcha to trap Night Haunter.

He thinks Guilliman is “a misguided fool at best, and a traitorous dog at worst.”

“Curze has the truth of it, but I was blinded by anger. It has fallen to me to be the scale upon which history will be balanced.”

He is prepared to see the Legiones Astartes destroy each other rather than have somebody other than the Emperor sit on the Throne of Terra. The threat of mutual annihilation may force Horus to seek terms, but we've already been shown that “the Lion does not make idle threats.”

 

Finally it is revealed that the Lion was talking to one of the Watchers in the Shadows. He has been told something of what is happening on Caliban but will not return yet. Stopping Horus and Guilliman is more important, even if it costs him his legion...

 

 

Wow.

 

[edit] Obviously, Gav's story is a much better read than my crude summary. The rest of the book doesn't look too shabby either.

[ForTheLion]

i just orgasmed :P

[MadDoc]

@ ForTheLion - :P That was unnecessary.

[Phoebus]

Damn it, I want to uncover the spoilers so badly! What kills me is that Hammer and Bolter doesn't come out until nearly the middle of the month!!!

[Vazzy]

Gah!!! I thought uncovering the spoilers would alleviate my need, but its amplified it by like 20. When does the next part come out!!!

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Having read the spoilers, The Lion's paranoia makes much more sense to me. Wow, this sounds like an amazing read! I can't wait for the book to come out in...4 months...

[Arioch]

.........I...I dont know what to say. I wonder where this story is going...?

[FerociousBeast]

Just bought and read the story. It wasn't very good. I do not care for ADB's take on the Dark Angels with all their lieging and seneschaling and ordersing and lil' bro'sing... Just doesn't feel right or natural. So for Gav to take that depiction and run with it was disappointing from the get-go.

 

More damningly than that, though, the story was just boring. The larger story, of the Night Lords leading the Dark Angels on a merry chase around some insignificant backwater sector far from any real action FOR TWO+ YEARS, is boring and a huge misstep--the original Index Astartes story for the DA was far better--and the substory within the larger story is even more uninspired. Bad guys try to steal super secret Mechanicum tech! Only the Lion knows about it! Dark Angels must intervene! ... Didn't we try this story already? Wasn't it called Fallen Angels? Isn't it considered one of the weaker entries in the HH series?

 

In the "Here We Go Again" department, Gav tries hard to make the Lion characterful, but other than the odd decapitation, it's not an effective portrayal. The Lion is just loud. He roars, yells, makes blunt statements, glares, starts walking off in random directions after giving orders... and that's about it. Oh yeah and he pops heads. Gav fails here where Scanlon, Lee, and ADB have failed before. None of them know what to do with the Lion. Of course, the most absurd thing about this failure is that each author has failed in different ways, leaving the HH series' portrayal of the Lion to be particularly scattered and inconsistent.

 

The Dark Angels are a well-loved chapter--once upon a time, the most popular chapter here at B&C after the Wolves--but no one at the Black Library seems to share that love. No one competent to write a good story, anyway. How I long for the good old days of the Index Astartes when the Lion was clearly defined as taciturn and slow to anger, but volcanic when finally aroused.

 

Lackluster and disappointing start to Gav's story.