Using BA Codex for Raven Guard?

[Grimdarkness]

Can the codex be used to make a RG army or was my friend blowing smoke? If it can I,m thinking a small elite fast attack force might work using the codex.

 

Thoughts ideas.

 

 

Thanks.

[LordCommanderSamirus]

There's really no reason why you couldn't do a "counts-as BA" raven guard army from the codex. Just tell him to make sure to tell any opponents that he'll be using the BA codex and inform them of what models are what.

 

-Samirus

[Grimdarkness]

There's really no reason why you couldn't do a "counts-as BA" raven guard army from the codex. Just tell him to make sure to tell any opponents that he'll be using the BA codex and inform them of what models are what.

 

-Samirus

 

 

Yeah I know I could Count As my question was more along the lines of dose the BA codex fit the raven guard as a chapter.

 

Thanks for the reply.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Yeah I know I could Count As my question was more along the lines of dose the BA codex fit the raven guard as a chapter.

 

Most people only see "Raven Guard is an assault chapter, C:BA is an assault codex, so make it C: Raven Guard!", although it is not true.

 

Fluffwise, the Raven Guard's tactics are different from ours. They deploy silently and use a huge amount of scouts, and attack with Tactical squads from Drop Pods.

Their assault squads act as fast elements that strike the enemy and withdraw quickly after that, leaving him without a chance of returning the blows that struck him. Scoutbikes are also used to act as mobile support units for the rest of the army.

 

Shrike's special rules reflect the nature of the RG very well, I think.

 

 

The Blood Angels fight differently. Our scouts are not used as a main element of our forces(as they are in RG) but rather accompany elements of assault squads and tactical squads, which make the core of our armies. Our assault squads are line-breakers and tank hunters, their tactical precision(DoA) is one of their real strengths and fits more to BA than to anyone else.

While the Raven Guard is more like a knife that stabs from behind, the Blood Angels are more like a swift blow from an elegant sword, carried out with celerity and strength, tearing the enemy apart while looking for the next one, always on the edge of losing their minds to the Black Rage.

 

For example: Shrike's bonus is Fleet all over the board, and Scout(I do not remember the second rule completely, but I think it was scout), which makes a lot of sense for RG.

 

The Blood Angels' boni are Furious Charge and FnP on the one hand, and utterly devastating CC units on the other hand. DC and Sanguinary Guard are not fitting to RG IMHO, nor are Sanguinary Priests(although the concept for apothecaries is fitting, but FC is not!). The Stormraven is described as being available to GK and BA only, although it is a fitting vehicle for RG.

 

The Baal Predator...well, the name says it. :P Lucifer engines...might get some trouble with explaining that.

However, dropping Baals, DC and SG from the codex might work for your "small elite attack force".

 

 

In the end, you don't have to care about which codex you choose, you will always get some strange looks from people when using "counts as" in your army. I'm not a friend of it either, but who am I to keep people from doing what they want? ;)

 

 

Snorri

[Warbringer]

I agree with Snorri, I love Raven Guard and Blood Angels, but they don't really fit IMO as with rules like the red thirst their a little too blood thirsty for Raven Guard and IMO Shrike can give the Codex Marines enought to make the whole army fitting.

[JamesI]

Personally, I'm not a big fan of Shrike's Chapter Tactics. I feel like Infiltrate or outflank would fit the Raven Guard better than fleet.

 

I think a good RG army can be done with the BA codex, depending on what you are interested in. Scouts and tacticals in drop pods we can do just as well as codex marines.

[Demoulius]

i agree with everyone here. currently the only thing that would fit better compared to using the vanilla codex is that youd have more assault marines. i dont know if the raven guard have more then the codex allows but their tactics seem to value assault marines highly for the hit and run part of it.

 

also leaving no trace behind of what hit you is hard if your leaving behind a drop pod ^_^

 

if youd use the blood angel codex but leave out everything that makes the blood angels stand out you might as well play the vanilla codex.... at least then you will have shrike :o

[Taranis]

I once met an awesome beastman army using the imperial guard codex. 2 greatly converted vendettas and loads of beast men and other converted vehicles.

 

Just make sure everybody know what is what and that its reasonable easy to tell the difference between units. ^_^

[khalaek]

Grimdarkness, I think you should go for it. I think what some of the other people who have replied are getting caught up on is that the fluff for RG and BA are too different, but if you think about it, they are similar enough to work just fine. Here's why:

 

1. Both are heavily based on shock assaults using drop pods and jump packs. The BA list has both, and in larger quantities/more options than the regular SM codex. The BA and SM codeces both have scouts/scout bikes with all the same options too.

 

2. The fluff for RG is limited at best, so there very well could be units that would be, say, the RG equivalent to Sanguinary Guard. Having so many jump pack troops available can make for a more visually and tactically interesting RG army than with the SM codex.

 

3. Again, because of the fluff, the BA special rules could just as easily apply to RG but for different reasons. A DoA-type ability makes just as much sense for other shock-troop chapters; Red Fury could just as easily represent the negative effects of the RG's failed attempt to accelerate the growth of their inductees; and the Death Company of the RG would certainly exist for the same reason.

 

So again, I think if you'd like to pursue the route of using Raven Guard as a counts-as Blood Angels army, go for it. Of all the chapters, those two seem most like each other, and this hobby encourages creativity if nothing else.

 

Good luck, and if you go for it, post some pictures of how you adapted your models to fit!

 

Khalaek

[Grimdarkness]

Thanks all about the only thing I could really see fitting is the DC as weregeld but then I don,t think the weregeld are still part of the RG fluff.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

:)

 

Rules are arbitrary.

 

A secondary 4+ save. What is it?

A 'blessing' from the God of Sneezes, some mystical protection from the power of a dead Primarch, combat drugs empowering bodies to super-human feats of endurance, a force field emitting protection, or some tinkering from an Orky Doktor?

 

I think GW has used all of these as the facilitator of FNP.

 

Fleet of foot. What is it?

Being skinny yet agile, as per Eldar? So how do hulking Space Marines from the Raven Guard chapter mimic that?

It is just a rule to diversify the RG from, say, UM.

 

So whilst GW says 'These rules are for BA', people seem to take it as some commandment of 'These rulests art for BA.... alone!'

 

+++

 

If dudes get offended from Bob using counts-as to bring an army whose powa! levels are >9000! then they seem like the same dudes who wouldn't like to fight a non-counts-as army whose powa! levels are >9000! anyway. If that is the group you are playing with, that is fine :)

 

You would have grown used to not taking some min/maxed competitive army anyway, and if that is the case, then not taking a min/maxed competitive army using counts-as should be no different.

 

Build a 'non-cheesy' BA army and don't sweat it ;)

 

+++

 

If your club-mates are touchy about it, just don't take the BAcentric things of the Codex.

 

Captains, Librarians, Chaplains and Honour Guard are all fine HQs. And you can have Jumper HG.

Tactical & Assault Termies, Techmarines & Sternguard are all fine ELITES.

• Are Sang Guard really out of place? Simply posh Vanguard ;)

Tactical, Scout and Assault squads are all fine TROOPS.

• Scoring Raptors is no problem, and they can finally take melta guns, making the unit actually worth using now.

Vanguard, Speeders, Trikes, Bikes and Scout Bikes are all fine ATTACK units.

• VV who can actually assault on the drop, rather than the hope and pray method C:SM forces are stuck with is only appropriate.

• Are Baals really that big a deal? So other Chapters finally figured Assault cannons or Flamestorms on a Pred is a good idea.

Dreads, Preds Devs, Vindis and Whirlwinds are all fine SUPPORT choices.

• Devs who don't cost gazillions? :woot:

 

• Are fast Vehicles that big of a problem? Who says Marine vehicles are as ponderous as Guard versions? The Guard are the ones stuck with the clunkers - Marines are supposed to have the good stuff :tu:

 

I think C:BA, even using these non-BAcentirc things [and you can drop the Sang Guard and Baal Pred if it is a genuine hurdle] is fine and plausible for any Chapter, even Ultramarines.

 

It seems to me we are far more used to having things prescribed for us, as movies and computer games do, than using a touch of imagination to spice things up.

Remember, GW made soldiers for D&D games [where imagination is crucial] and then came up with the Warhammer universe as an excuse to play battles with said minis. GW's background is imaginative :D

 

Be imaginative.

[Demoulius]

noone here is saying that he shouldnt do it for x reason. were saying that the fluff that we have to work with there isent much going on for the blood angel dex compared to the vanilla dex.

 

taken from the lexicanum (linky)

 

the Raven Guard are known for hitting weak points in enemy defences hard and they perform lightning strike upon locations of tactical importance to cripple their enemy. The Raven Guard disdain the notion of recklessly charging into enemy ranks. This differentiates their tactics from those of the Blood Angels.

so what do we have to work with right now? the raven guard are less about recklessy charging in and more about making tactical strikes.

 

The Raven Guard rely heavily on their Scouts for pinpointing enemy positions and to scout for good drop sites. Because of their hit and run tactics they also make extensive use of Assault Squads. The Tactical Squads of the Raven Guard are often deployed via Thunderhawks or Drop Pods. The favorite weapons of the Raven Guard Commanders are the Lightning Claws and it is a common sight that their command squads also come equiped with these weapons in addition to their Jump Packs.

this section tells us they favour scouts. which was already mentioned here. they also make extensive use of assault squads. it doesent mention that they have more then a standard company however (even more so the page later states their chapter make up, which is the same as a codex chapter) so would be limited to 2 per company (incidentily the blood angels have the same restriction but i digress)

 

so what do we have to work with right now? not much... they use scouts and assault squads extensivly. their commanders favour lightning claws and..... thats about it. force composistion wise anyway

 

in the vanilla dex you can read how Shrike and the men under his command where behind enemy lines for a 2 years after their Thunderhawk was shot down and just went around sabotaging things. would they have done the same if their ride wasent shot down? who knows. it is the chapters specialty though and there really isent a way to play into that with the blood angel dex. shrike (the hq choice from the vanilla fex) on the other hand grants the unit hes with the infiltrate special rule, as well as granting every unit fleet instead of combat tactics. if he happens to be attached to say, a unit of assault marines or vanguard vets he can get a first turn charge off....if he gets the first turn that is :woot:

 

its not much but it is something at least. and their combat doctrine aside the raven guard are basicly a vanilla chapter with a love for lightning claws and sabotage and covert ops behind enemy lines.

 

every blood angel unique unit is either a jump pack unit or a vehicle of some kind. it states the ravens use those less and there isent exactly fluff about many chapters having jumppackers with artificer armour.

 

at the end of the day the question asked is: can you use the blood angel dex to make a raven guard force. and you certainly can. were just giving him food for thought for fluff reasons for and against because there are little reasons why he shouldnt do it if he really wants to...

[Marshal Wilhelm]

noone here is saying that he shouldnt do it for x reason. were saying that the fluff that we have to work with there isent much going on for the blood angel dex compared to the vanilla dex.

 

taken from the lexicanum (linky)

 

the Raven Guard are known for hitting weak points in enemy defences hard and they perform lightning strike upon locations of tactical importance to cripple their enemy. The Raven Guard disdain the notion of recklessly charging into enemy ranks. This differentiates their tactics from those of the Blood Angels.

so what do we have to work with right now? the raven guard are less about recklessy charging in and more about making tactical strikes.

 

The Raven Guard rely heavily on their Scouts for pinpointing enemy positions and to scout for good drop sites. Because of their hit and run tactics they also make extensive use of Assault Squads. The Tactical Squads of the Raven Guard are often deployed via Thunderhawks or Drop Pods. The favorite weapons of the Raven Guard Commanders are the Lightning Claws and it is a common sight that their command squads also come equiped with these weapons in addition to their Jump Packs.

this section tells us they favour scouts. which was already mentioned here. they also make extensive use of assault squads. it doesent mention that they have more then a standard company however (even more so the page later states their chapter make up, which is the same as a codex chapter) so would be limited to 2 per company (incidentily the blood angels have the same restriction but i digress)

 

so what do we have to work with right now? not much... they use scouts and assault squads extensivly. their commanders favour lightning claws and..... thats about it. force composistion wise anyway

 

in the vanilla dex you can read how Shrike and the men under his command where behind enemy lines for a 2 years after their Thunderhawk was shot down and just went around sabotaging things. would they have done the same if their ride wasent shot down? who knows. it is the chapters specialty though and there really isent a way to play into that with the blood angel dex. shrike (the hq choice from the vanilla fex) on the other hand grants the unit hes with the infiltrate special rule, as well as granting every unit fleet instead of combat tactics. if he happens to be attached to say, a unit of assault marines or vanguard vets he can get a first turn charge off....if he gets the first turn that is :)

 

its not much but it is something at least. and their combat doctrine aside the raven guard are basicly a vanilla chapter with a love for lightning claws and sabotage and covert ops behind enemy lines.

 

every blood angel unique unit is either a jump pack unit or a vehicle of some kind. it states the ravens use those less and there isent exactly fluff about many chapters having jumppackers with artificer armour.

 

at the end of the day the question asked is: can you use the blood angel dex to make a raven guard force. and you certainly can. were just giving him food for thought for fluff reasons for and against because there are little reasons why he shouldnt do it if he really wants to...

 

Cool :D

 

I guess what I'm saying is, C:BA is just as valid for a 'Vanilla' Chapter [not even Raven Guard] as C:SM is - when those restrictions I mentioned are used. Perhaps even better, in some regards. I want to answer the points you raised Demoulius:

 

1] There is no need to be gung-ho with any C:BA force. Jawaballs famously turned C:pdf into a shooty and competitive version of the BA. Just because C:BA is being used, doesn't mean flat out attack must be used.

 

2] BA scouts are the same as SM scouts. Barring Telion. Still RG fluffy.

 

3] BA Tacticals can deploy via Pod. Still RG fluffy.

 

4] BA Command squads can take Jump packs. SM cannot. Both Dexes can take Lightning claws. So this is actually better for RG.

 

5] BA Raptors are actually worth taking compared to SM ones;

• Scoring.

• Can take Melta guns.

These two factors actually make Raptors worth taking, rather than just an exercise in fluffiness to take them. So this is actually better for RG.

 

DoA is something that seems characteristic of Marine skill, who'd surely be better pilots than Orky Stormboyz?! in getting a sweet landing off. Imo.

 

Also, DSing needn't be seen as flying in from the heavens. They could simply have infiltrated like pros. Much better than the infiltrate rule ;) ;)

 

Another point is, fleeting Termies is not fluffy. Ever. :lol:

 

+++

 

Those are my thoughts on counts-as, anyway :)

[Claws of Corax]

To the OP. I have a Blood Angel Army (6k + points) and a Raven Guard Successor (The Claws of Corax) (4k + Points)

 

Do I have them opperate the same? No.

 

Can the Blood Angel Codex be used to represent Raven Guard. Yes!

 

Going through the BA specific units:

 

Sanguinary Priests = Guardians of the Genes (After Corax's mistake with cloning The Raven Guard would be all the more careful about keeping the Gene as pure as possible) I think they'd be allowed

 

Sanguinary Guard = Basically a flying type of Honour guard.

 

Baal Vehicles = Difficult to explain but the Raven Guard do have their own forge world. They predaliction to getting in and out may justify more efficient/powerful engines being developed.

 

Librarian Dreadnaught = Simply Dont use

 

Storm Raven = Useable due to the premise of the Raven guard but difficult to justify.

 

Generic Rules:

 

Decent of Angels = Strategic Insertion (Most devastating and critical)

 

Red Thirst = Genetic disturbance due to Corax's mistake

 

 

All in all as long as you are sensible and selective about the units and keep to the concept of the Raven Guard I see no issue.

 

Claws of Corax

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Personally, I'm not a big fan of Shrike's Chapter Tactics. I feel like Infiltrate or outflank would fit the Raven Guard better than fleet.

 

I think a good RG army can be done with the BA codex, depending on what you are interested in. Scouts and tacticals in drop pods we can do just as well as codex marines.

 

 

 

I was just thinking Khan would be a good choice for a RG counts as army.

 

G :P

[SnorriSnorrison]

Sanguinary Priests = Guardians of the Genes (After Corax's mistake with cloning The Raven Guard would be all the more careful about keeping the Gene as pure as possible) I think they'd be allowed

 

Generic Rules:

 

Red Thirst = Genetic disturbance due to Corax's mistake

 

Those are the only points I'd slightly disagree with.

 

As I said earlier, Apothecaries as single units do make sense, but Furious charge does not. FnP, I'm fine with that. They are apothecaries, after all. It is just that RG aren't affected/inspired by their presence in a way BA are. They benefit from the apothecary's healing abilities, but their genes would not go all beserk to the point of increasing their strength and speed...in a fluff way, of course.

 

 

Then, the Red Thirst thing. Red Thirst has parallels to the effects of Corax's mistake, but Raven Guard are not known for losing their minds in the middle of battle, they are cold, and rely on stealth to gain an advantage over their enemies, until the point where the use of brute force is adequate to crush the enemy. Corax's mistake turned some of the clones into degenerate lunatics, not into warriors that lose their fear and leave their positions to tear bodies apart with their bare hands.

 

As a side note, no one can stop you from playing with C:BA if you want to. Usually, ^_^

 

 

Generally speaking: I'm not completely against the idea of counts-as, it's just that I've yet to meet a person that did really put effort into his army to make it counts-as.

The most guys I saw and played against in my local store were kinda WAAC-gamers out for the newest codex or the most powerful build. I didn't even lose against their armies, and I would not call myself frustrated in any way.

It's when I play against grey piles of unlovingly glued miniatures that are just sufficiently WYSIWYG to switch between codizes when the gamer feels for it(what basically means that his opponent has got hold of a better codex than his).

The last guy I met told me that his Space Wolves army was using the Blood Angels codex because we are better at Razorspam lists. When he unpacked his minis from the case, I took a close look at them...and they were unprimed, normal bolter space marines "counts-as" assault marines. But maybe I'm old-fashioned.

 

 

 

If you put effort into your RG army "counts-as" BA, both modelling and rules wise, people won't complain about it, they will rather congratulate you on a nice army. ;)

 

 

 

Snorri

[Claws of Corax]

Apothecaries as single units do make sense, but Furious charge does not. FnP, I'm fine with that. They are apothecaries, after all. It is just that RG aren't affected/inspired by their presence in a way BA are. They benefit from the apothecary's healing abilities, but their genes would not go all beserk to the point of increasing their strength and speed...in a fluff way, of course.

 

 

Snorri

 

Don't get me wrong I completely agree with you that Furious Charge doesnt quite sit right. But I was going from the angle that you could try to justify it this way.

 

If you put effort into your RG army "counts-as" BA, both modelling and rules wise, people won't complain about it, they will rather congratulate you on a nice army. B)

 

Snorri

 

If someone did a Raven Guard and put loads of effort painting each unit and was clearly explained what was what before use I would have absolutely no issue playing against it.

 

Claws

[Demoulius]

If someone did a Raven Guard and put loads of effort painting each unit and was clearly explained what was what before use I would have absolutely no issue playing against it.

 

i think most of us here feel that way :cry:

 

like snorri said though some people get a nasty taste in their mouth when a WAAC player comes around and does it for powergaming purposes....

 

that said we got a few gamers like those in my local GW as well. I must say that whilst they generally do it to win they can make some amazing looking armies and if they can think of some good background we generally dont mind all that much. we just raise our eyebrows abit when their army uses a different codex every other week :tu:

[Bat33.1]

Storm Raven = Thunderhawk which RG are said to use to speed deployment

 

The other big point for using the C:BA is if you take a look at Imperial Armour 8 Raid on Kastorel-Novem the RG commander special rules gives RG assault marines as troops and there is no way to do that with C:SM so even GW are complicit in this as current IA books state all rules are valid and legal for use in 40K.

 

I say go for it. At the end of the day they are his little plastic guys and he can do what he wants, anybody that doesn't like it can choose to play or not as GW state in the BRB.