SandinmaBoots Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Alright this question on the rules starts like many do, with a story of something that happened in a game. I was playing in a tournament about three weeks ago with my Space Marines, a Chapter I made myself called Sons of the Crimson Sands. Now the first round had me paired up against I guy I have played a few times before. I know he is one to be very competitive and is known for pulling out some interesting tricks with his Blood Angels. I'll skip the whole game set-up and go straight to the point of the game that matters. It was his turn and in his movement phase he had moved his Stormraven up only 6 so he could still unleash his full payload on my Landraider, as well he popped out a Furioso(spelling?) Dread with Blood Talons as close as he could to the my Landraider. So in the Shooting Phase he managed to do nothing to my Landraider, but then he decide to move his Dread closer to my other units he would assault my Landraider in his Assault Phase. This is a fair tactic, though he can't do anything to my Tank. The only problem I had with this was he had Pivoted the Dreadnought in his Assault move so that his front armor would be facing out and his rear would be paralel to the side armor of my Landraider to deny any chance of me getting a shot at the Dread's rear armor. This is something I found to be stupid and unheard of from a simple logic point of view. I mean if you have a chance to face the thing you wish to fight, you would always take it. Yet, logic doesn't always translate to the Rules of Warhammer. I would like to know if anyone knows any section in the current fifth edition rules that says you can't do what my opponent did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 A quick check of the BRB doesn't include anything about how Walkers must face what they assault, just a statement that they follow cc rules like infantry, who can assault anything in base-to-base regardless of facing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 There's nothing against what he did; that was a perfectly legal move. However... You can't shoot into combat anyway, so his purpose was flawed. Not only that, but once the combat is concluded and the dreadnought is out of it, he can consolidate and turn any direction he wishes. Maybe he wanted to moonwalk into combat? The only reason i can see this move being useful is if you're expecting to get immobilized and you'd rather be facing the broader part of the battlefield instead of being limited to just a small corner. On the other hand, he did cheat when he did this: Furioso(spelling?) Dread with Blood Talons... in the Shooting Phase...decide to move his Dread closer to my other units he would assault my Landraider in his Assault PhaseThe Furioso Dreadnought does not have Fleet, so there's no legal way he could have done this. Now, the Death Company Dreadnought does have Fleet, but it also has Rage...which dreadnought was he using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Think you missed the fact that the Dread was charging a Land Raider, Seahawk. No getting locked in close combat against vehicles with no WS value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I think its the part where during the shooting phase he decided to move closer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I think that he means...In the shooting phase, after failing to hurt the Land Raiser, he decided to move the Furioso closer, and so assaulted the Land Raider in the Assault phase. Which would be legal. I'd call shenanigans on the pivot though. Unlike infantry, vehicles have a front arc. Ramming, tank shock, firing weapons, all require the vehicle to pivot so that it is facing the target (or at least its weapons in the case of shooting). Unfortunately, I can't think of a specific passage that says you can't do what your opponent did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 How would the movement during the shooting phase- running- be legal before an assault? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The OP clearly stated the dreadnought was moved in the Shooting Phase, indicating it Ran. It then assaulted somehow, despite it not being able to. Also, he never actually said he assaulted his land raider. Still, there's no rule whatsoever that determines a model's facing in close combat, allowing this "dread slide" to be completely legal. I may have to incorporate it in my play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The OP was a bit poorly written so I was struggling to see what had actually happened but I think the question is whether you can pivot your dread during an assault move to position yourself in such a way that you can't be shot in the rear in subsequent turns. I don't see anything against this in the rules but I also don't really see the benefit. As has been said already, if you're in combat you can't be shot and if you win the combat you get a consolidate move to reposition yourself anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angry man Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The OP was a bit poorly writtena little harsh having read the OP through a few times, this is what i think was meant... I'll skip the whole game set-up and go straight to the point of the game that matters. It was his turn and in his movement phase he had moved his Stormraven up only 6 so he could still unleash his full payload on my Landraider, as well he popped out a Furioso(spelling?) Dread with Blood Talons as close as he could to the my Landraider.as it says - dread gets out an inch away from the LR (supposedly to assault the content once destroyed??) So in the Shooting Phase he managed to do nothing to my Landraider, but then he decide to move his Dread closer to my other units he would assault my Landraider in his Assault Phase. This is a fair tactic, though he can't do anything to my Tank.i dont think there was any movement in the shooting phase - the dread simply assaults the LR (even though he cant cause damage) in order to get closer to some other infantry The only problem I had with this was he had Pivoted the Dreadnought in his Assault move so that his front armor would be facing out and his rear would be paralel to the side armor of my Landraider to deny any chance of me getting a shot at the Dread's rear armor.opponent faces the LR with rear armour so that it cant get shot in the rear in following shooting phase This is something I found to be stupid and unheard of from a simple logic point of view. I mean if you have a chance to face the thing you wish to fight, you would always take it. Yet, logic doesn't always translate to the Rules of Warhammer. I would like to know if anyone knows any section in the current fifth edition rules that says you can't do what my opponent did? there are no rules to stop him from doing what he did - it wasnt 'ilegal or even bending the rules. what should you do in that situation?? move your LR and the n shoot the dread in the back... AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ah-a-nothepsis Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Maybe he wanted to moonwalk into combat? OMG, Sea I wuv you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 :wub: Well, long ago, GW outright stated they were never, ever, EVER going to give SM dreadnoughts any way to increase their speed, be it jump packs, psychic powers, or (yes they did say this) rocket boots. I figure since they threw that out the window with the BA codex (WAAAAARRD!!!), then something as simple as a moonwalking Dreadnought isn't too far out of place these days. what should you do in that situation?? move your LR and the n shoot the dread in the back...This. Unless he managed to stun/immobilize the land raider from other affects (the dreadnought couldn't), simple move away and shoot it in the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techmarine Data007 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Seahawk, when was that statement made? It sounds like it's before my time, and though I agree with the general spirit of it, I'm curious as to when it was said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 In the mid '90's, in a Q&A of the Inquisitor magazine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 :P Well, long ago, GW outright stated they were never, ever, EVER going to give SM dreadnoughts any way to increase their speed, be it jump packs, psychic powers, or (yes they did say this) rocket boots. I figure since they threw that out the window with the BA codex (WAAAAARRD!!!), then something as simple as a moonwalking Dreadnought isn't too far out of place these days. what should you do in that situation?? move your LR and the n shoot the dread in the back...This. Unless he managed to stun/immobilize the land raider from other affects (the dreadnought couldn't), simple move away and shoot it in the back. They also said we would never be able to fly... than planes were invented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelloid Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 B) Well, long ago, GW outright stated they were never, ever, EVER going to give SM dreadnoughts any way to increase their speed, be it jump packs, psychic powers, or (yes they did say this) rocket boots. I figure since they threw that out the window with the BA codex (WAAAAARRD!!!), then something as simple as a moonwalking Dreadnought isn't too far out of place these days. what should you do in that situation?? move your LR and the n shoot the dread in the back...This. Unless he managed to stun/immobilize the land raider from other affects (the dreadnought couldn't), simple move away and shoot it in the back. Of course, Ward was at least 2 game designers ago. So anything he said probably isn't too relevant today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 B) Well, long ago, GW outright stated they were never, ever, EVER going to give SM dreadnoughts any way to increase their speed, be it jump packs, psychic powers, or (yes they did say this) rocket boots. I figure since they threw that out the window with the BA codex (WAAAAARRD!!!), then something as simple as a moonwalking Dreadnought isn't too far out of place these days. what should you do in that situation?? move your LR and the n shoot the dread in the back...This. Unless he managed to stun/immobilize the land raider from other affects (the dreadnought couldn't), simple move away and shoot it in the back. Of course, Ward was at least 2 game designers ago. So anything he said probably isn't too relevant today. Wai...what?!? Codex: Blood Angels, Codex: Grey Knights, Codex: Necrons. And both of the first two I listed feature Flying Dreadnoughts of one or more varieties... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Yea...Ward is still current, though thankfully on the way out (different topic entirely). He was far too young to be at GW in the early-mid '90's. He introduced the despicable flying dreadnought that shouldn't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Wel its a nice touch if you ask me, i wonder when we get to see a Dreadnought riding a bike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Tates Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 If the Dread got into combat with the LR (regardless of moving in the shooting phase) then 1. The LR could move away and shoot it on the back and 2. If you 'won' the combat that you cannot win due to lack of tank killing abilities then you could not consolidate anyway due to not being able to consolidate away from vehicles. To be fair if someone tried this with me I'd let them do it but state that's it's not in the spirit of the game. CT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I agree with a post(er) from a few comments ago...the post was kind of poorly worded so we really don't clearly understand what actually happened. To me this is what I read: 1. Moving Phase: Dread disembarks from a moving Stormraven. Then may have moved the dread closer (beyond the 2 inch disembark distance) to the landraider with intent to assault it. If true - this was violating the rules. A unit cannot move other than to disembark from a transport that moved. 2. Shooting Phase: During the shooting phase, the dread then "ran" towards a different unit, in a change as to what the assault target would be. No wording on the dread actually firing on the landraider - it was waiting to see if the Stormraven would have a favorable result (like immobilized) to make the assault success more likely, which did not happen. As pointed out above, this would be violating the rules unless the dread had fleet. The dread is facing the new target (which seems to then be out of charge range). 3. Assault Phase: In the assault phase, the dread is not used to assault anything, instead is pivoted in place to put it's front armor facing the landraider. This would violate the rules, as you can only move a unit and its facing in the assault phase IF you are actually assaulting a unit. The decision to face the raider should have been done when it ran, not changed in a later phase. 4. Dance Phase: As suggested, the dread then moonwalked in a small tight circle, to the amazement and awe of the landraider crew... So yes, the dread player (blood angels) may have taken some liberties in this tournament game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusktiger Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 i dont get why he'd be stupid enough to assault an AV14 tank with a dreadnought fitted with blood talons. they're Strength 6 weapons that get to roll more to-hit rolls for every unsaved wound the enemy takes. that dreadnought has no way of assaulting and glancing AV14, let alone penetrating the armor. And because it wasted its assault in a vehicle, the vehicle could just move back 6", pivot, and fire 2 lascannons into the now-visible AV10 of the dread's back. that has got to be the dumbest thing i've ever heard. no, wait, i worked as a mechanic. there's alot of dumber things i've heard. that's the dumbest dreadnought tactic i've ever heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falldown Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 We don't know other situational things in this case Dusktiger. Was the LR immobilized? Did it have its weapons? Basically this is a situational tactic that is a bit derpy logically, but legal within the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 In reading the OP, I'm guessing this is what happened: Movement phase: Stormraven moves forward 6", Dread disembarks. Shooting phase: Things shoot at the Land Raider, fail to bother it. Assault phase: In order to be closer to the OP's other units, the Dread charges the Land Raider, knowing full well it can't harm it, but gaining extra movement toward the "other" unit with the charge range against the Land Raider. After completing the assault move to base the Land Raider, the opponent rotated the Dreadnaught's base to point the back armor at the Land Raider, preventing rear-armor shots from non-Land Raider units. If that is the correct sequence, there were technically no rules broken. There's nothing in the BRB that says the Dread must face toward the unit it charged after completing its charge move. However, it falls into that realm of "if it seems legal, but feels wrong, it's because it's a jerk move". They really need to make the next rulebook include a passage about not being a weasel and playing by the spirit of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 OK I think we're almost done here. The OP needs to get back on this for sure, but, it really isn't the part of the +OR+ to pick holes in the tactics – but to provide guidance on the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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