9 Assault Marines without jump packs

[chucklehead]

Hello everyone, this is my first post here, although I have been viewing the forums for some time.

 

I am just getting back into the hobby after not playing for about 9 months and have set about building a new vanilla marine list.

 

It always bugged me that with a Rhino's capacity of 10, you couldn't put a full tac squad along with a HQ in one. Having 9 Tactical marines means forgoing their special and heavy weapons, so that seems like a waste. Scouring through the codex, I realised that you could have 9 Assault marines with no penalty to what they can and can't take.

 

I am therefore thinking of running with Vulkan as my HQ, along with 9 Assault marines (1 with a flamer), without their jump packs, in a Rhino. This seems to me on paper that it gives me enough bodies and attacks on the charge that it should be able to do some damage to troops.

 

I am just curious to find what people thought of this as an idea and if anyone had any success with this or similar? I am not fussed about it being the most mega-competitive of options, but would like it to be relatively decent.

 

Thanks in advace for your thoughts people :D

[JamesI]

Tac squads in a rhino with an HQ wouldn't be bad if they were still allowed the 1 special weapon.

 

I think assault squads work well for rhino squads cheaper than say Command squads or Sternguard or Vanguard.

 

I regularly run 8 man assault squads in rhino with an HQ attached, but I do this using the BA codex so they are scoring, carry meltaguns and have access to furious charge, so it might not be a perfect representation as to waht can be done in the Marine dex.

[DarkGuard]

Welcomes to the forums, hope you enjoy your stay! :blink:

 

Now the never ending problem, where to put a HQ? As you've said the obvious location, Tactical squads, don't have room in their Rhinos. I suppose you could combat squad them to get the room, but you don't want to shoehorn yourself into combat squadding all the time, it reduces their tactical flexibility and makes you susceptible to losing more KPs in KP games. So where to put them?

 

Well one of the ideas, as you've mentioned, is an jump pack-less Assault squad in a Rhino. Give them a flamer and a power fist (thunder hammer if you have Vulkan), and you in theory have a decent unit that when accompanied with Vulkan can put out some good pre-assault shooting backed by some decent assault. And for the most part this is true. However, it depends largely on your opponents, and while weight of attacks can bring down Marines, it's unreliable. Basically, they're not amazing in assault. If they had rending, or furious charge, or FnP, then maybe, but unfortunately not.

 

Now most people will tell you that the best place to put Vulkan is a Hammernator squad in a Land Raider, he fits in, makes them better, and you have a fantastic assault unit, everyone's happy. Or maybe not. You see, and I'm guessing you already know this as you're asking about Assault squads in Rhinos, a Hammernator squad in Land Raider is very expensive, which can make it hard to fill out your list, especially if you want to include another unit to add redundancy. You turn into a rock list which is susceptible to being beaten if the rock is taken out, and it can be taken out.

 

The other option I find is good for Vulkan is a Sternguard squad. Now when you consider it, Sternguard are just as good in assault as Assault Marines, and much better at shooting. Of course, they cost more, but then they would. You can give them a power fist to help out in assault, and more importantly, all manner of weapons boost by Vulkan, a heavy flamer or two along with some combi-meltas in a Rhino is a good choice. And the best thing is the total upgrades they can have are not restricted by unit size, unlike Assault squads and Tactical squads, so you can easily take 8 or 9 and still have two special weapons, a combat weapon and a load of combis. Of course they'll be more expensive than the Assault squad, but they'll also be cheaper than the Hammernators and it won't be as a big a problem if they're taken out.

 

That being said, the Assault squad you suggested can work, and it's a nice, cheap way to get a bodyguard for Vulkan. However, it won't be as effective in combat as you maybe feel you should, so you may want to look for alternatives.

[Project.2501]

Tac terminators also make a good squad to stick an HQ in IMO. The HQ (usually) covers high initiative power weapon attacks (along witht he sgt) while the other termies provide 'oomph' with the PFs/CFs and a CML (or flamer or AssC). They will never be 'stuck' praying for the enemyto come to them if/when their transport pops as well. This does, of course, require a land raider tranport if you want to stick them in something, BUT, you could also DS them in or just deploy normally as well (provided your HQ is in TDA as well) as they have the ability to shoot so offer you more options yet again.

 

Otherwise Sternguard would be my vote as then you can choose any transport.

 

Assualt squads got hosed for all weapons options, and just really get outshined by too many other units. Not saying they can't work, just not an amazing option.

[maturin]

If you want Vulkan in with a close combat unit that has more options than assault squads, riding in a rhino - Vanguard Vets are your way to go. They're cheaper than Sternguard when barebones! And they have many, many more weapon options than Assault squads, while not being that much more expensive. If you search the tacticas there are several threads dealing with Vanguard - read thade's posts especially.

 

The quick version is: don't upgrade everyone, but do have some RB/LC/PW and storm shields (on separate models) and you'll have a very capable CC unit, for a lot less than Hammernators + LR. Personally I run a 6 or 7 man squad with RB/SS sarge, PW, and 2x SS - and they're consistently very good. Especially when attached to a chaplain, charging out of a rhino. Out of the last 7 games I've played, they've survived 5 while putting notches in their belts for: 2 Nid gaunt mobs & a Mawloc (same game), 2.5 GK squads (Int. & purifier, same game), several IG mobs, a DE Archon & wyches, & a Death Company (mutual annihilation). They failed one game when they got shot up by a tac squad (of all things!).

[Mutters]

I play a weird shooty list, but I load up 2 rhinos with 9 packless assault guys with a Meltagun, Powerfist and a Librarian (one is might/shield, the other might/fear) What I have them do is counter-assault anything that ends up coming too close to my sternguard and tacticals. Usually I pile the sternguard into the combat since they're loaded up with a Sanguinary Priest (5 sternguard/priest in a Razorback) and I use the librarian to give might to himself for +D3 power weapon attacks, or on the Powerfist Sargent for +D3 powerfist attacks.

 

Overall it does all right. They absolutely dominate anything that is shooty, and with BA they're scoring in case you run across an assaulty army that you need to shoot up.

[chucklehead]

Hi Everyone, thanks for the responses!

 

A few of you mentioned putting him with Sternguard. Part of me likes this as I have some Sternguard models that I built which I wasn't going to get to use.

 

My concerns, however, are that isn't that a waste of either the Sternguard's shooting or Vulkan's assualt? The Sternguard are obviously superb at rapid fire, but then you can't assualt. Or, if you use their pistols so that you can wade in with Vulkan, you can't then use their special ammo.

 

Thanks again for looking people ;)

[DarkGuard]

It is a little bit of waste of one aspect, but look at it this way, if your Sternguard have heavy flamers and combi-meltas they're already being buffed by Vulkan, but aren't amazing in assault. If you put Vulkan in there you get another heavy flamer, so shooting is better. Vulkan also has good assault, so assaulting is better. You can now jump them out of a Rhino and rapid fire/flamer/melt whatever poor unit to death, and if anything survives or another unit is nearby you're not so worried about assault with Vulkan and possibly a power fist in the squad. And if there's a unit that's better assaulted you can fire off your twin-linked heavy flamers, inflicting horrendous casualties, and then assault anyway.

 

With Vulkan in the list the strength of Sternguard is less the special ammo they have, but more the heavy flamers and melta weapons they can take. A couple of twin-linked heavy flamers makes them horrifying against infantry while twin-linked combi-meltas makes them reliable against tanks, MCs and TEQ. And they can still fall back on special ammo for flexibility.

 

I've used them many times with Vulkan and never been disappointed.

[Mutters]

Also remember that veterans have 2 base attacks, so they aren't pushovers in melee.

[Project.2501]

You're looking a it wrong way IMO. By putting Vulcan with sternguard, you aren't 'wasting' his assault potential, you're banking on it. Vulkan is a badarse in assault, even without the charge, it's because Vulkan is with the sternguard that you'll be wanting to or allowed to 'run up and rapidfire' on everyone/thing. As Mutters pointed out as well, when combined with the sternguards' attacks, they are no slouches in CC.

 

All IMO.

[Mysticaria]

Double heavy flamer sternguard and vulkan is a pretty good squad. If you go this route you may want to consider limiting it to only 5 guys to manage the cost. If you want a bigger squad, you'll get more use from the special ammo but that's not really built to abuse vulkan's rules as much. The only time I'd consider the assault troop option is if you are pressed for points or for Force Org slots. Elites are a little tight, especially with vulkan lists, so you may not have room for the sternguard. Also, I love tactical terminators (see link in my sig) but I'm not really a fan of vulkan with them. He doesn't really add a lot to them and I'd rather have double heavy flamer sternguard I think.

 

Are you set on a rhino? One thing I like is 10 sternguard in drop pod, 2 with heavy flamer and several with combimelta. You drop in, combat squad, melta some vehicle, then triple twin-linked heavy flamer the contents... fun times! Rhino's good too, just a little more conservative approach designed for a longer-term impact.

 

-Myst

[Laughingdagger]

Pedro with sternguard or foot vanguard can be a rough unit to tangle with. +1 attack and stubborn means less losses due to fearless saves, 4 attacks for vanguard without charge, 5 with, a 9 or 10man + pedro himself will put the hurt out, especially since you get a free powersword on the sarge that can be a relic blade for cheap. throw in a combat shield or two and a few meltabombs and you've got a pretty versatile unit.

[DarkGuard]

Are you set on a rhino? One thing I like is 10 sternguard in rhino Drop Pod, 2 with heavy flamer and several with combimelta. You drop in, combat squad, melta some vehicle, then triple twin-linked heavy flamer the contents... fun times! Rhino's good too, just a little more conservative approach designed for a longer-term impact.

 

-Myst

 

Fixed it for you buddy ;).

 

You're completely right about Sternguard there, though bigger squads be good as well, provided you have the points. For one, with double heavy flamers and Vulkan you may be charging into combat every now and then, bodies help here. Also, more guys, less chance of having to allocate to one of your heavy flamers, and as in this instance the heavy flamer does most of the damage, Sternguard are in the unusual position of not losing a lot of damage dealing potential from one casualty, something which isn't true of bolter squads.

 

The Pod idea is a good idea as well, as it fully takes advantage of Vulkan's special abilities.

 

@ chucklehead, if you're interested by the idea of Sternguard, feel free to check out the link in my sig about using them, it also has a section about using them with HQs, and Vulkan is listed with them.

[Mysticaria]

Are you set on a rhino? One thing I like is 10 sternguard in rhino Drop Pod, 2 with heavy flamer and several with combimelta. You drop in, combat squad, melta some vehicle, then triple twin-linked heavy flamer the contents... fun times! Rhino's good too, just a little more conservative approach designed for a longer-term impact.

 

-Myst

 

Fixed it for you buddy :P.

 

Haha.. yeah, typing while tired not recommended. At least you got what I was "trying" to say.

 

-Myst